SALVATION

[Drew]

For someone to believe they must add their good works to their salvation, they are believing that the blood of Jesus is not good enough! Which seems like at least border-line blasphemy! Possibly even full blown blasphemy ....

Who said such a thing? Certainly not moi - if you read my posts carefully. I would agree that "our own good works" are not necessary for salvation.

But Paul means what he says in Romans 2 - no good works, no salvation.

As I have already stated, the "good works" are generated by the Holy Spirit, not by moral self-effort. So no one is "adding their own works" to what Jesus has accomplished.

 

[Drew]

Re: Not By Works ....

Hey brother, why are we bothering with this, its a no win situation?

It is indeed a no win situation - Romans 2 says what it says - ultimate salvation is indeed dependent on the content of one's life - the "good works" that the Spirit manifests. If you want to say that these good works are "evidence" of saving faith, hey, I am with you.

But let's not pretend that Paul did not write Romans 2, where he clearly and unambiguously links salvation to the manifestation of good works.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Believe the Bible and God's Promises ... !!!

I can and do KNOW that I am saved! Hallelujah ... !!! Praise and glory be to the Lord Jesus Christ. We have the Bible, full of God's promises that He will save us, and keep us saved, and that we will not lose our salvation.

It's amazing...the Word is filled with the promises of God, and Christ's work on the cross still gets denied ...with such ardor, too. One would think the enemy had his hand in this.
And what is the atonement?

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

We're raised and sitting in heavenly places, and still His work in the cross is not sufficient for some.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We were warned...preserved, sealed and sanctified means nothing to those who mock the work of the cross...We are truly in the last days.

But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. 20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. 24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

 

[Drew]

Hello glorydaz:

I am not sure who you think is denying the cross. If you think that those who assert the necessity of "good works" for salvation, such as I am asserting, then you are lumping Paul in those who "deny the cross". Here is what Paul - not me - but Paul has to say on the matter:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good:

And Paul says similar things elsewhere.

And as has been shown, Paul is decidedly not denying the necessity of "good works" for salvation in Ephesians 2 and Romans 3. In both those texts, context makes it clear that the "works" whose justificatory powers are being denied are the works of the Torah - the law of Moses

So you can "backslap" with vj and Panin all you like and say that the rest of us deny the cross. I'll stick with Paul and take my chance with that.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Believe the Bible and God's Promises ... !!!

Being an OSAS worshipper, you don't know. You continue to ignore the truth of that matter. The claim is moot because it may be determined at a later date that you "never knew Christ to begin with".All of the Hallelujah's would be considered so much as "Lord, Lord" and "I never knew you" - according to YOUR OSAS theology!!!Either you don't understand the simplicity of that, or you are just plain ignoring it in your blind worship of OSAS...

Do you know anything about the Holy Spirit?
When I was in the Catholic Church, I had no idea a believer could have the Spirit living in him.
Do you know the peace that comes to those who know they are sealed with the Spirit?
When Jesus says He will never leave us nor forsake us, He wasn't lying.
You're so concerned about it being determined "at a later date" that someone isn't saved.
That has to make you wonder what you're missing, does it not?
Once I was blind, but now I can see...I see you're quite concerned about what we worship.
Perhaps it's your lack of faith in Christ's finished work on the cross that is keeping you from experiencing a Spirit filled life. You do sound almost desperate. Where's the peace that should be dwelling in your heart?

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Romans 5:5 - And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Romans 9:1 - I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

Romans 15:13 - Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Count it all Dung ... !!!

Then, you sir, have something to boast about ... !!! Keep boasting away all you want ....

vja, you are boasting that your salvation is secured before you finish your race. Jesus is the One who judges who made it, not you.

.

The believer is sitting with Christ in heavenly places.
We are spreading the message of His saving power, and you are laying road blocks at every step.
Perhaps you should join the race, instead of impeding the Gospel.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Armor of God - Ephesians 6:11

Who is the OSAS Police ... ??? I know who it is ....

The devil, Satan, is the accuser of God's people. The enemy came before God, hurling accusations against Job. But you know what ... ??? We don't have to listen to the accuser. He wants us to doubt our faith. He wants us to doubt God. He wants us to doubt the Bible.

We must put on the full armor of God, and withstand the wiles of the devil.

Ephesians 6:11

Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

I can hear him now....You are not surely saved.

 

[Panin]

Re: Not By Works ....

But let's not pretend that Paul did not write Romans 2, where he clearly and unambiguously links salvation to the manifestation of good works. You cant be with me and against me.

I have no issue with salvation manifesting Good works. That you can agree is a step forward.

I do take fundmantal issue with people who say, works are a required part of the salvation transaction (on an ongoing basis) between an unregeneraterd man, the blood of Christ and God.

Works do not enter into to this supernatural transaction, and that works in whatever form may be a fruit of this transaction, is in no way condtadictory of this. We are sealed.

Paul practically wrote the whole new testament and started umpteen churches throughout the world, he was beaten and stoned for the gosple that you are blaspheming. Me thinks you "works" guys aren't doing enough to be saved. Paul said "follow me as I follow Christ". If you are not doing exactly what he did, and all the magnificent works that he did, I conclude that you are no where near saved enough yet, you had better all get cracking and stop wasting your time arguing with people who are already saved.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Comfort from the Bible ...

You know what ... You just brought up a very good point indeed! The words of God are very comforting ...

Romans 10:9-10, “9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.â€

These words in the Bible are very COMFORTING ... !!! If you don't find comfort from the Bible, then you have a problem with God that you need to settle ....

They don't realize righteousness is a gift given by the grace of God.
They still rely on their own works of righteousness to be saved.

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

 

[vja4Him]

If the Son Sets You Free ....

This is what's know as not confessing the Lord Jesus Christ.
Confessing Him is confessing all He's told us...not just a part of it.
They can't confess He saved them...they deny the work of the cross.

Very sad to see so many people led astray .... Denying the work that Jesus did on the cross for them. If people would just let go and let God ...

John 8:36

So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Rewards Don't Keep Us Saved

I am not running a race for my salvation. The scripture speaks of our rewards, which do not get us a ticket into heaven:

1 Corinthians 9:24-27

24Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

25And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

26I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

You bring up a very good point. We do get rewards according to our obedience. Those are not related, in any way, to our salvation. We're promised rewards here on earth and in heaven. Five different crowns in heaven, in fact. And here on earth...

Mark 10:29-30 - 29And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

He is a rewarder to those who diligently seek Him...

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Justified before God and man.

Drew, you bring up some interesting points, but I don't agree it has anything to do with whether it's Jews or not. James speaks of justification before man (fruit). Paul speaks of justification unto God. (salvation - root) God looks at the heart...man sees the fruit.

I suggest that Paul's writings make it clear that when he denies "justification by works", he is, effectively, saying "justification is not limited to the Jews". The reason: when Paul refers to "works", he is, as per my earlier post, referring to the works of the Law of Moses. And who has the Law of Moses and do its "works"?

Jews. This "works" business has been massively misunderstood in the Protestant tradition. Paul is not denying that "good works" justify - he clearly affirms that they do in Romans 2 - a passage which many in the Reformed tradition sweep under the rug.

Here is Romans 3:27-28 in the NASB:

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

What are these works of the Law that Paul thinks cannot justify? Are they “good works†in general, or are they the practices or “works†of the Torah, the Law of Moses?

I suggest that Paul is clearly talking about the Torah here, and not “good worksâ€. And so the “boast†here (verse 27) is not the boast of the person who thinks he can climb to heaven by a ladder of good works, it is instead the boast of the Jew, who thinks that following Torah will justify him.

That this is the case is borne out by verse 29, a verse which makes no sense if "good works" or a "or obedience to a general law" are in view in verse 28, but makes perfect sense if the works of Torah are what Paul is talking about:

29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,

Paul is amplifying the implications of verse 27 and 28 and is clearly focusing on how the Jew and Gentile are both members of God’s family. In verses 27 and 28, he has written that “works†do not justify. In verse 29, it becomes clear that these are the works of Torah since, obviously, it is by doing the works of Torah, being "under Torah" as it were, that the Jew could boast "God is God of the Jews only". What marks out the nation Israel from the Gentile? Possession and doing of Torah, of course. Not good works.

So when, in verse 29, Paul writes that "God is God of the the Jews and the Gentilesâ€, he is clearly concluding argument about how doing the Jewish-specific practices (or “worksâ€) of the Torah does not justify. He is not addressing the matter of “justification by good worksâ€.

Hmmm...I see what you're saying.
I'm going to read it through a couple of time, but it does look like you're correct.

 

[glorydaz]

I believe that you are mistaken. Here, in Romans 2, Paul makes it exceedingly clear that the "good works" of one's life do indeed determine whether one is ultimately saved:

Am I denying salvation by faith? It might appear that I am.

And although there are those on this board who will level this accusation agin me (sometimes when they clearly know better), it cannot stick.

Why? Because I am only following Paul. And Paul says that the works that save are those produced by the Holy Spirit, not "moral self-effort". Therefore we really are ultimately saved by faith - if one has aith, the Spirit will indeed produce the works that will be salvific at the Romans 2 judgement.

But the works must indeed be there - Paul means what he says in Romans 2.

One is clearly the works of self-effort, as you say...those do not result in salvation.
The fruit of the Spirit are the "works" of Christ through us. And, indeed, they will manifest in good deeds. Since it's the love of God we're to show forth, there will be feeding the hungry, taking care of the widows and orphans, etc., but those are only good when we allow God to work through us. When we go before the Lord, in our own strength, instead of His, we are only pleasing man...not God. It sounds to me like you're saying the fruit is the natural result of walking in the Spirit, and that doesn't change being saved by faith in any way. We're saved by grace through faith when we believe. I don't see any works on our part involved in that at all.

 

[vja4Him]

The Lord Sees the Heart ....

Ive fallen away heaps of times into sin. Your the Police who are saying I lost my salvation at those times.

Ive been saved 9691 times so far in that case. Either that or Im a doomed for all eternity.

BUNKUM.

I've slipped up so many times, I couldn't even begin to count .... No, I am not the OSAS Police. I am not the judge of a person's salvation. The Bible does tell us that we will know them by their fruits, but God is the final judge for one's eternal destiny .... Thank the good Lord it's not me who is the judge, or you, or somebody else, because we certainly would not be fair!

Man only sees the outward appearance, but the Lord sees the heart:

1 Samuel 16:7

But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not look at his appearance or at his physical stature, because I have refused him. For the LORD does not see as man sees;[a] for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.â€

 

[vja4Him]

Re: Another Gospel ....

If your salvation depends on YOU and Jesus, then you have not understood the gospel of salvation according to the Bible. Rather, you are pushing another gospel, which is very dangerous ground ....

Galatians 1:8-9

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

You posted the above material immediately before posting my response to one of your posts. It would be easy for the reader to get the impression that you are implying that I deny the gospel and fall under the judgement declared by Paul.

If that was not your intent, please indicate.

If it was your intent, then we have other problems to deal with.

In any event, I made an argument about Ephesians 2:8-9 and what it means. You cannot, legitimately anyway, simply ignore that argument and hope that it goes away. You need to engage my argument about how Paul is not denying justification by "good works" in that text.

You need to look at the other scriptures in the Bible as well. And Paul is NOT arguing for salvation by works! I don't know how you are getting that ....

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

If you rely on your works for your salvation, then your salvation is not biblical. Take a good look at the above verse, which says NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast. You guys are full of boasting about your works, claiming that the work of Jesus was not sufficient, so you must add to His works. You can't be truely saved with that kind of salvation ....

 

[vja4Him]

Re: Not By Works ....

It doesn't say what kind of works, but it doesn't have to. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes if very clear that we are not saved by works period, so that nobody can boast.

The fact that it doesn't explicitly say what kind of works does not lessen the force of my argument, which you need to engage. As my argument shows, the context makes it clear that the "works" here are the works of the Law of Moses.

We have provided plenty of evidence from the Bible, which shows very clearly that salvation is not by works. You need to go back and read from the beginning of this thread, and pay close attention to all of the scriptural evidence supporting the Biblical doctrine of salvation by grace through faith, without any works of our own.

 

[vja4Him]

For someone to believe they must add their good works to their salvation, they are believing that the blood of Jesus is not good enough! Which seems like at least border-line blasphemy! Possibly even full blown blasphemy ....

Who said such a thing? Certainly not moi - if you read my posts carefully. I would agree that "our own good works" are not necessary for salvation.

But Paul means what he says in Romans 2 - no good works, no salvation.

As I have already stated, the "good works" are generated by the Holy Spirit, not by moral self-effort. So no one is "adding their own works" to what Jesus has accomplished.

I'm confused here .... It seems like you were with the guys who are against the belief that we are saved by the work of Christ, and not by our own works. Are you changing sides now, or perhaps I mistook you for someone else ....

 

[vja4Him]

Re: Not By Works ....

Hey brother, why are we bothering with this, its a no win situation?

It is indeed a no win situation - Romans 2 says what it says - ultimate salvation is indeed dependent on the content of one's life - the "good works" that the Spirit manifests. If you want to say that these good works are "evidence" of saving faith, hey, I am with you.

But let's not pretend that Paul did not write Romans 2, where he clearly and unambiguously links salvation to the manifestation of good works.

Ok, Drew, you need to make yourself clear. You seem to be saying now that we do need our good works to earn our salvation.

If, on the other hand, you are only saying that true Christians, who are born again, will have good works, but those good works do not and cannot save them, then I think we are in agreement.

Please clarify your stance ....

 

[vja4Him]

Christ's Atoning Blood .....

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

We're raised and sitting in heavenly places, and still His work in the cross is not sufficient for some.
[quote="Ephesians 2:4-9":3bgysymc] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We were warned...preserved, sealed and sanctified means nothing to those who mock the work of the cross...We are truly in the last days.

But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. 20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. 24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

[/quote:3bgysymc]

This is why I say that those who adhere to their belief that they must have their own good works to receive salvation are on dangerous ground, perhaps on sinking sand ....

To say that Christ's atonement is not good enough, that His precious blood is not sufficient for our salvation, I believe borders on blasphemy, which is a very dangerous position to be in ....

 

[vja4Him]

Hello glorydaz:

I am not sure who you think is denying the cross. If you think that those who assert the necessity of "good works" for salvation, such as I am asserting, then you are lumping Paul in those who "deny the cross". Here is what Paul - not me - but Paul has to say on the matter:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good:

And Paul says similar things elsewhere.

And as has been shown, Paul is decidedly not denying the necessity of "good works" for salvation in Ephesians 2 and Romans 3. In both those texts, context makes it clear that the "works" whose justificatory powers are being denied are the works of the Torah - the law of Moses

So you can "backslap" with vj and Panin all you like and say that the rest of us deny the cross. I'll stick with Paul and take my chance with that.

Okay, now you are contradicting yourself ...