SALVATION

[Drew]

Re: Another Gospel ....

You need to look at the other scriptures in the Bible as well. And Paul is NOT arguing for salvation by works! I don't know how you are getting that ....

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

If you rely on your works for your salvation, then your salvation is not biblical. Take a good look at the above verse, which says NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast. You guys are full of boasting about your works, claiming that the work of Jesus was not sufficient, so you must add to His works. You can't be truely saved with that kind of salvation ....

You simply refuse to engage my detailed and clear argument about what "works" means here.

vja4Him: Why are you ignoring that argument and simply asserting your position? If your position is to be sustained, you have an obligation to show how I am mistaken in respect to my take on this text. My argument is out there for any and all to critique. So please, go nuts.

 

[Drew]

Look at Abraham. We see Abraham's faith was counted for righteousness.

I am perfectly aware of this. But, and this ironic in light of your implication that I ignore material, I have to account for Romans 2 (not to mention other "works-justification" texts that I have not even brought up yet).

Yes, Paul asserts "justification by faith". And yes, he asserts (e.g. in Romans 2) that ultimate justifcation is based on the quality of the life led.

So what do we do? Well, I believe that nothing Paul writes can be ignored. I will not argue the point in detail right now, but I believe Paul's basic position is this: Yes, the ultimate salvation of each person will be based on the "good works" (Romans 2). But we can anticipate a successful verdict in the present for every one who, in the present, does nothing more than place faith in Jesus. This is because faith brings the Spirit and the Spirit produces the works.

Romans 2, Romans 2, Romans 2. As much as some may not "like it", it is there.

 

[glorydaz]

That's exactly what Paul is doing. His entire argument is about faith vs. works. Chapter three solves the dilema he intentionally created in chapter 2. He's letting the Jews and everyone else know the Jews do not have a leg up on anyone else. The law of faith is for all of us. The problem of people thinking they could work to gain righteousness was adressed to the gentiles first in the earlier chapter, and then he went on to include the Jews who were relying on the works of their religion to save them rather than faith. The Jews had no market on that problem.

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

In one fell swoop he accomplished this.

Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Our boasting is excluded by the law of faith.

But, again, you generalize beyond what Paul is saying. Paul's critique here is not directed at the boast of the morally self-righteous, it is directed at the Jew who thinks that being marked out by the ethnic specificity of the Torah gives him an inside track on salvation. How do we know that Paul is thinking in these terms? By what he goes on to write:

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too

Now please, Paul would not write this if his argument was about "faith vs works". No. Unless Paul suddenly and unpredictably changes topics, his point is obviously that salvation (and justification) are not limted to those with the Law of Moses. That is, the Jews.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Falsely Accusing People ....

And you're a false accuser. I have answered and given you a mountain of scripture, which you, in your arrogance, continue to ignore. You were even agreeing at one point, but you must have gone off and filled yourself anew with your false doctrine.

Just because you don't have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, you assume no one else can.

Had you been born again, you would know all these things....yet you know none of them.

You have a head knowledge but no heart knowledge...you grieve the Holy Spirit because you doubt God's power to keep those who are His.
Like a horse, you can be led to the living water, but I can't make you drink.
When you have assurance, you will have Christ in you. Until then, you can not even know what it is.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Eeeew. You guys better look at your fruit a bit. If you carry on in this manner, you will have to understand if this thread gets closed

I am going away for a few days, so ......play nicely Don't let me get back here to find you all have been fighting . :yes

I'm wondering why you didn't speak up when we were being slandered.
Odd how that works, isn't it?

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Not By Works ....

It doesn't say what kind of works, but it doesn't have to. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes if very clear that we are not saved by works period, so that nobody can boast.

The fact that it doesn't explicitly say what kind of works does not lessen the force of my argument, which you need to engage. As my argument shows, the context makes it clear that the "works" here are the works of the Law of Moses.

Surely you're not talking about this...

Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Not By Works ....

And, in fact, we know he is not denying salvation by good works, since he clearly affirms justification by good works in Romans 2.

You really need to address my post about what "works" refers to in Eph 2.

It doesn't say what kind of works, but it doesn't have to. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes if very clear that we are not saved by works period, so that nobody can boast.

How can he say Paul isn't denying salvation by good works? Do you see what he's talking about?

4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

All those sinful doings are expressed in very strong terms, "treasurest up unto thyself wrath ." Even with the description of the just man, notice the full demand of the law. It demands that the motives shall be pure, and rejects all actions from earthly ambition or ends. In the description of the unrighteous, contention is held forth as the principle of all evil. The human will is in a state of enmity against God. Even Gentiles, who didn't have the written law, had it within, which directed them what to do. Conscience is a witness. As they kept or broke these natural laws and dictates, their consciences either acquitted or condemned them.

 

[glorydaz]

For someone to believe they must add their good works to their salvation, they are believing that the blood of Jesus is not good enough! Which seems like at least border-line blasphemy! Possibly even full blown blasphemy ....

Who said such a thing? Certainly not moi - if you read my posts carefully. I would agree that "our own good works" are not necessary for salvation.

But Paul means what he says in Romans 2 - no good works, no salvation.

As I have already stated, the "good works" are generated by the Holy Spirit, not by moral self-effort. So no one is "adding their own works" to what Jesus has accomplished.

Good golly....that's what I thought you were saying the first time. You should really call it fruit because too many people think works are what they have to do on their own in order to be saved. There is a huge difference between working and allowing the Lord to work through you (fruit). You do know, though, that one who is born again can't lose their salvation, don't you?

What does the Lord do with the branch that bears fruit? He purges it so it will bear more fruit. And what does He do with a vine that is fallen down? He lifts it up. He doesn't cut it off. This speaks directly to our "work" or our "fruit " and our security in the Lord.
Notice the words "taketh away"...the Greek word means "lifts up". I shared this before, but it was ignored.

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Some translations say cut off...that is not correct.
I have grapes...I would never cut off a branch that had fallen down.
We always tie them up. If we didn't, we'd have no branches left. :biglaugh

The ASV has this...2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.

Youngs Literal has this... 2every branch in me not bearing fruit, He doth take it away, and every one bearing fruit, He doth cleanse by pruning it, that it may bear more fruit;

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Not By Works ....

Hey brother, why are we bothering with this, its a no win situation?

It is indeed a no win situation - Romans 2 says what it says - ultimate salvation is indeed dependent on the content of one's life - the "good works" that the Spirit manifests. If you want to say that these good works are "evidence" of saving faith, hey, I am with you.

But let's not pretend that Paul did not write Romans 2, where he clearly and unambiguously links salvation to the manifestation of good works.

They're fruits. If you see someone who doesn't love God and his fellow man, then you aren't seeing fruits of the spirit.

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

This is the fruit "works" we will see. We do all things through Christ who strengthens us.

For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. 14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. 15See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

And does that mean we will never do anything wrong...of course not. We'll be chastened until we obey.

 

[glorydaz]

Hello glorydaz:

I am not sure who you think is denying the cross. If you think that those who assert the necessity of "good works" for salvation, such as I am asserting, then you are lumping Paul in those who "deny the cross". Here is what Paul - not me - but Paul has to say on the matter:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good:

And Paul says similar things elsewhere.

And as has been shown, Paul is decidedly not denying the necessity of "good works" for salvation in Ephesians 2 and Romans 3. In both those texts, context makes it clear that the "works" whose justificatory powers are being denied are the works of the Torah - the law of Moses

So you can "backslap" with vj and Panin all you like and say that the rest of us deny the cross. I'll stick with Paul and take my chance with that.

You are using the term work, but not in the way it's been argued in this thread. Go back and read it if you have any doubts. We've been saying all along that the "works" come after our salvation...not as a condition to being saved. You aren't saying that...although you still use the term works. I have no problem with the term as long as it's ascribed to the "works" we do in the Lord's power...not our own, and not as a condition of salvation. We're saved by grace through faith...we're not saved by works. The rest of the arguement has been over whether we can lose our salvation. Those who are born again have entered into eternal life. They are seated with Christ in the heavenlies. We can not lose our salvation, although we can certainly lose rewards. That goes to when judgement begins in the house of God.

Do you notice in the verse you gave...persistance in doing good?
Of course if we have Christ in us, we will be showing forth the fruit of the spirit.
We will be loving our fellowman...that covers every good work you could think of.

Those who reject the truth are not saved.
As soon as man thinks anything he does gets him saved, he's denying the work of the cross.
Those who stand before the judgement seat of Christ will be given according to what he has done.
That has nothing to do with salvation. They aren't standing before the Great White Throne. There is a big big difference. We've been justified by our faith in Christ's work on the cross.

 

[Cornelius]

n

The fruit of the Spirit are the "works" of Christ through us. And, indeed, they will manifest in good deeds. .

So according to you, the fruit of the Spirit causes us to be justified ?

You are saying James's "works" are the fruit of the Spirit. So you would not mind then if we substitute the little word "works" by " fruit of the Spirit" and see what James is saying according to you

Here goes !

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by fruit of the Spirit a man is justified, and not by faith only.

So then , when using a word like BY, the verse is telling us the method of justification. BY the "fruit of the Spirit" is the method by which we are justified.

Is this what you are teaching us?

 

[Cornelius]

So you are saying that we are justified by our good works ?

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Rewards Don't Keep Us Saved

You bring up a very good point. We do get rewards according to our obedience.

Yes this is a good point, and it has always troubled me a little IE if one is working for rewards, I dont think one will be rewarded, I think these works will be burned as stubble.

I think going the extra mile EG for an employer working overtime without pay etc, just for the satisfaction of doing a good job, is something that one will be rewarded for, but then if one is doing it in the exepctation of being rewarded, then I doubt one will be rewarded.

Rewards are unexpected blessings, not earnings for services rendered.

Just my opinion.

I seem to recall something along the lines of said rewards being Jewels in our crown that we place at the feet of the Lord. IE we give them all to the Lord anyway.

Just think of the rewards we're getting right here on earth.
I can think of so many ways I've been blessed by my obedience to Him, I couldn't begin to list them all.
Yes, I've been chastened as well, but I've always come out stronger and have grown through it.

There are five crowns in heaven that I know of...

I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible (crown). I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life (known as the martyr's crown).

For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? 20For ye are our glory and joy.

The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory (known as the shepherd's crown) that fadeth not away.

 

[glorydaz]

I think your analysis of James is spot on.

Well, you're wrong, too. Instead of ignoring this...please read it...really read it.
A man is justified by works....but not before God. That's very important and you continue to ignore it.
I'm very disappointed in you, Drew. Are you going to take all of scripture or ignore what doesn't fit your theory? I at least take the time to explain what you and others put forth. Everyone else ignores the proof. Are you going to, also?

Please do not patronize me and descend to the form of "debate" that so many engage in here. Please do not make these baseless accusations and insinuations. Let's be clear - you have precisely zero real evidence to support these speculations that I ignore material - do you think that because I do not address each ands every post right away that I am "ignoring" you or that I do not take these discussions seriously. I think you will find, perhaps to your discomfort, that I take these matters very seriously indeed. I intend to address all your concerns as time permits. And please - you have absolutely no basis for any suggestion that I "reject" scripture that does not fit "my theory". What do you think? I have nothing else to occupy my time.

I have not read all the posts - have you, or anyone else, an explanation for the "salvation by works" text I posted from Romans 2?

I apologize if I've lumped you in with the rest, and I'm really sorry I came across as patronizing. I've been patronized enough, myself, on this thread so I should have realized I would react in the flesh. Your posts have confused me because you keep referring to works. I've seen, now, that you see them as not our own self-effort, but the outworkings of our faith. I do not see what you see in Romans 2...that could be because I'm not exactly sure what you're saying. If you're saying that our works help get us saved, then I disagree.

You might remember,too, that we have been in a spiritual battle over the work of the cross. I take that very seriously. It's the same as some claiming Jesus doesn't reign now. These are not unessential matters...they are the very foundation of our faith. I will always stand firm on what Jesus accomplished on the cross....just as I do with His sitting on the throne and being God. There are some things that can not be compromised.

 

[glorydaz]

n

The fruit of the Spirit are the "works" of Christ through us. And, indeed, they will manifest in good deeds. .

So according to you, the fruit of the Spirit causes us to be justified ?

You are saying James's "works" are the fruit of the Spirit. So you would not mind then if we substitute the little word "works" by " fruit of the Spirit" and see what James is saying according to you

Here goes !

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by fruit of the Spirit a man is justified, and not by faith only.

So then , when using a word like BY, the verse is telling us the method of justification. BY the "fruit of the Spirit" is the method by which we are justified.

Is this what you are teaching us?

No....I figure I've made it very clear, but I will try again.
I've never claimed to be a teacher, so you'll have to bear with me on this one. :yes

Our faith justifies us before God.
Our works justify us before man.
That is why James said..."show me".
Man looks at the outward signs and God looks at the heart.
Abraham was justified before men by lifting the knife...but not unto God.
He was justified...not with his works, but by his faith...unto God.

1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Yes, Abraham can glory in his works, but not before God. But man will look at what he did and count it as obedience.

2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Abraham's faith alone was counted to him as righteousness....justified toward God.

3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

His obedience (work) is what he owes God, anyway.

4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Here, his faith alone (worketh not) is what justifies him...it's his faith that is counted to righteousness before God.

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

In other words...Abraham's faith justifies him before God, and his works are the outward sign that justifies him before man. The same thing James is referring to. Show me your works....man looks at those and can see our faith. God sees our faith because he looks in our hearts.

In other words...God looks at my heart and I'm justified by grace through faith.
Man, on the other hand, can't see into my heart, but he can see my works, and see that they are good. Then I'm justified in man's eyes.

 

[glorydaz]

So you are saying that we are justified by our good works ?

Only before men...not God.

Our good works are a bi-product of our faith...an outworking of our faith that man can see...therefore they justify us before men. What justifies us before men is not the same thing that justifies us before God.

We say, how can that guy claim to be saved when he gets drunk and beats his wife.
Or we say, that guy really has a lot of faith because he shows such love for his fellow man.
We either believe he has faith or we don't, depending on the fruit he produces..or lack thereof.

God, on the other hand, looks at our heart. He knows whether we really believe him or if we're just faking it. He knows whether our works are giving him the glory or whether we're doing them to please other men. It isn't our works that justify us to God...it's whether we believe in Him or not...our faith.

We are saved by grace through faith...the Word makes that very clear.

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

 

[francisdesales]

ALONE, my works cannot save myself. In Christ, MY works are indeed righteous.

Our boasting is excluded by the law of faith.

Wrong, our boasting in OURSELVES ALONE is excluded.

I cannot say "I was a good boy, I did it all by myself. I obeyed your commandments, God, and no one helped me".

We cannot make that statement.

I believe the best statement in Scriptures on synergism is Philippians 2:12-13. It shows the fact that God and men work TOGETHER. Thus, we have nothing to boast, because it is God who moves us to do good. Our own will is not alone in choosing the good, so we cannot justify ourselves. We are MADE just, nevertheless, because WE are involved in "let it be done to me according to your word". We have the choice to say "no, God, I'm not going along with that program". Those who accept God's plan in their lives are MADE just, just as Abraham was just in God's eyes through faith.

"Romans 3:22-27

Naturally, we don't boast in ourselves alone... God gives us freely His graces. How can we boast? Paul goes on in Romans 4:4 to say that a work has earned payment. When we have earned payment, it is no longer a gift. Salvation is a gift, freely given. It is not earned. So Paul is stating that we cannot give OURSELVES the credit.

It's His robe of righteousness we're covered with. We have no righteousness of our own.

Where does the New Testament say we are "covered with Christ's righteousness" or that "we have no righteousness of our own"? Does Jesus ever state He is coming into the world to "cover us with His righteousness"??? This is the invention of the Reformation.

Do you doubt what God has stated? WE ARE MADE RIGHTEOUS. It is a freely given given, this righteousness.

We don't earn that righteousness. True.
It is made our righteousness. True.
Those who choose to cast aside the gift of righteousness cannot enter heaven. True.

You have emasculated the Gospel with this "covering" business. It totally misunderstands who God is and what He is doing in this world to draw men to Himself. God is calling us into a relationship. CALLING. Reflect on that word - calling. There is no connotation of "force" here. It is a calling of love. Furthermore, there is no "covering". When God SAYS He will change our hearts from stone to one that obeys His commands (see Ezekiel and Jeremiah), HE WILL DO IT. There is NO NEED TO PRETEND for God.

When He says He will MAKE us just, He does it. He doesn't "throw" Christ over us to "sneak" us into heaven. This is NOT the Good News!!!

WE WILL TAKE ON THE DIVINE NATURE. Not just pretend to... We will be presented pure and spotless to the Christ as a Bride. Not in God's imagination, but in reality... Only the pure will see God - not the pretend pure...

Nor did I ever claim God replaces man.

You do, over and over again, when you say "Christ covers us" or "man is filthy rags" or "we are not made just, it is Christ's righteousness that covers us"...

Your "theology" clearly has God pretending that man is not really just, when God has the power to bring about a NEW life within us.

"1 Corinthians 10:31"
Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

That doesn't say that God takes all the credit. It says we are to recognize that all we do should reflect God's glory. We are the visible Body of Christ, His continued visible presence in the world. Thus, all that we do should glorify God, just as all Christ did glorified God. It is not a sign that I am "covered" and am filthy rags... All we do should glorify God, not "God gets all the credit"...

We're to give all glory to God....unless you want to get eaten by worms.

"John 7:18" He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Yet again, this doesn't say that I do nothing and God does everything. Stop twisting the meaning of Scriptures. All that I do, I do in Christ. But it remains ME doing it... I am not a puppet, God has given us free will.

I must say "let it be done to me according to your will.

It is this "YES" that will be judged at the end of time, not Jesus Christ...

Have you read Matthew 25, the final judgment? Christ clearly tells us that it is "YOU" who are feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, visiting those in jail, etc - OR not... It doesn't say "I am feeding the hungry because humans are filthy rags. It says "YOU fed ME".

Once that sinks in, the idea of synergy, you may begin to come to understand the Good News, that God wants us to join Him in His own divine Nature, starting the moment we are born from above. There is no phony declarations, pretend justifications, or God looking the other way as we sneak in under Jesus' "covering" into heaven.

It's all real.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

delete post, repeat of a later post.

 

[vja4Him]

The Lord Is Able to Save Completely

I've been saved for 40 yrs...haven't fallen away yet.
I'm just wondering why you have no faith in our Lord to keep His own.

I've been saved for over 30 years and haven't fallen away. The Lord knows Him own, and keeps them always, for eternity.

Hebrews chapter seven:

25Therefore he is able to save completely[a] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

 

[francisdesales]

A man is justified by works....but not before God. That's very important and you continue to ignore it.
I'm very disappointed in you, Drew. Are you going to take all of scripture or ignore what doesn't fit your theory? I at least take the time to explain what you and others put forth. Everyone else ignores the proof. Are you going to, also?

You are trying to correct someone who actually knows the Scriptures as well as Drew on this subject???

Again, you need to actually go and read what the Bible says, rather than telling us what your false preachers tell you...

James is refering to the near-sacrifice of Isaac. WHO is there? Is there an audience of men watching, so they can "know Abraham is just???

No, the Audience is God, and God alone.

Furthermore, WHO knows that Abraham is now just, after he was about to sacrifice Isaac???

GOD!!!

And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here [am] I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me. Gen 22:11-12

Again, no men were present to see this just act.

If James was talking about being just before men, he couldn't have chosen a worse example...

Thus, we must toss aside this theology into the garbage where it belongs.

 

[vja4Him]

The Lord's Ways ....

I remembered very little from the preaching, except the preaching about hell ...
God used the reverence for His Word that I had learned from a young age, and the preaching of hell, fire and brimstone and the old hymns to bring me closer to Him ....

I still love the fire and brimstone preachers. Unfortunately, there just aren't enough of them around anymore.
Westtexas

Our pastor often has a firey sermon! I remember very clearly, when I was a young teenager, I visited this little Assembly of God church in Portland, Oregon, with pastor Bunn. I wasn't saved, but something was drawing me to that little church .... I knew that I was a sinner, on my way to hell, and that I needed to get right with God. We used to do Bible sword drills and I always looked forward to that .... Amazing how God works in mysterious ways ....

Isaiah 55:8-9

8 “ For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,†says the LORD.
9 “ For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.