SALVATION

[Drew]

Re: Not Everyone Who Says Lord, Lord Will Enter Heaven

True salvation comes through Christ only, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

There is no text in the Bible that denies salvation by "good works".

There are plenty of texts that deny salvation by doing the works of the Law of Moses.

When Paul writes about "boasting", he is not, repeat not, writing about the boast of the morally self-righteous, he is writing about the boast of the Jew, who believes that doing the works of Torah.

Don't believe me? Well name any text about boasting and I will address it.

 

[vja4Him]

Bump for Drew ....

Bump for Drew ....

Drew -- You continue to conveniently avoid the question I addressed several pages back. You DID contradict yourself, and you know it ... !!! How can you logically explain that ...

Here is what YOU said yourself:

"who assert the necessity of "good works" for salvation, such as I am asserting"

and:

"I would agree that "our own good works" are not necessary for salvation."

You see very clearly that you did admit that good works are necessary for salvation. BUT ... then you changed your stance and claim that our own good works are NOT necessary for salvation.

It appears as if you are playing games .... You can't have it both ways.

 

[Drew]

Those who are under the law...natural or Mosaic...will be judged solely on their work.

Where does the Bible say this. You seem to think that the Romans 2 judgement is only for the unregenerate or for some sub-set of humanity. Where does Romans 2 say this. My version says this:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."...

I do not mean to flippant, but why not say that the Romans 2 judgement will be limted to Hungarians, or people with big noses? I see no evidence in the text at all that limits this judgement to the unregenerate. How do you justify limiting the scope to the unregenerate?

And how do you explain that Paul says that some will get eternal life at that judgment when, if I undertand you, you believe that no one will get eternal life at that judgement? Would you write that "God will give eternal life to those who persist in doing good when, in fact, you believed zero people will get eternal life in this way?

I certainly wouldn't.

 

[vja4Him]

Those who trust in their works think they can sin as long as they work hard.

Jesus tells us to be holy as He is Holy. Do you think you can be holy without any effort? No you cannot. You see, that's how you guys are deceiving the world with your kind of preaching.

We have told you tons of times that no one can do good works without God's help. God is seeking our heart, if we are striving to be faithful to Him, the Holy Spirit will help us to be holy.

.

Sounds like something else we agree on! I agree that we can only do good works with God's help. Yes, we need the Holy Spirit to help us to be holy. And we also need God's forgiveness when we slip up. And we all will mess up ....

 

[Drew]

Re: Bump for Drew ....

Bump for Drew ....

Drew -- You continue to conveniently avoid the question I addressed several pages back. You DID contradict yourself, and you know it ... !!! How can you logically explain that ...

Here is what YOU said yourself:

"who assert the necessity of "good works" for salvation, such as I am asserting"

and:

"I would agree that "our own good works" are not necessary for salvation."

You see very clearly that you did admit that good works are necessary for salvation. BUT ... then you changed your stance and claim that our own good works are NOT necessary for salvation.

It appears as if you are playing games .... You can't have it both ways.

I am not playing games, as you suggest. Let me try to explain.

When I wrote this:

"who assert the necessity of "good works" for salvation, such as I am assertingâ€

…I mean what I say – good works are indeed a necessary condition for salvation – as Paul says in Romans 2.

When I wrote this:

"I would agree that "our own good works" are not necessary for salvation."

…I was careful to indicate that it my good works are not necessary for salvation. But good works are still needed – the ones produced by the Spirit.

In other words: Good works that arise from the unregenerate person based on “self-effort†do not “count†for salvation. But the works produced by the Spirit do.

I hope this clarifies things.

 

[vja4Him]

Re: Saved - Not By Works ...

Even though you avoided my question ... You have now made your stance very clear. you do espouse a Salvation By Works doctrine ... which, by the way, is not Biblical..

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

I am not sure what question I have avoided - please tell me.

For your part, you have avoided a detailed and comprehensive argument as to why the "works" here in Ephesians 2:8-9 are not "good works" but rather the works of the Law of Moses.

Why are you not engaging that argument? If I am right in asserting that Paul is denying justification by doing the Law of Moses, this does not entail a denial of justification by "good works" - the very thing Paul affirms in Romans 2.

vj: why are you not engaging that argument? Others will suspect that you are avoiding it since it undermines one of the pillars of your position - that in these verses Paul denies justification by "good works". So why not show us all where I am mistaken in that argument?

Romans 2:6-8

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

The passage is talking about judgement, not salvation. Romans 2:6 is a reference to:

Psalm 62:12

and that you, O Lord, are loving.
Surely you will reward each person
according to what he has done.

It seems that Romans 2:6-7 is talking about rewards for good works, and not salvation.

 

[Panin]

Re: It's All About the Heart ....

You bring up a very good point. We do get rewards according to our obedience.

Yes this is a good point, and it has always troubled me a little IE if one is working for rewards, I dont think one will be rewarded, I think these works will be burned as stubble.

I think going the extra mile EG for an employer working overtime without pay etc, just for the satisfaction of doing a good job, is something that one will be rewarded for, but then if one is doing it in the exepctation of being rewarded, then I doubt one will be rewarded.

Rewards are unexpected blessings, not earnings for services rendered.

Just my opinion.

I seem to recall something along the lines of said rewards being Jewels in our crown that we place at the feet of the Lord. IE we give them all to the Lord anyway.

It's all about our heart brother .... We need to be humble, not showing off like the Pharisees. The Bible speaks of praying in secret, and not showing off our good deeds ...

Sometimes people will see our good deeds though, and as long as our heart is right with God, and we are doing everything as unto the Lord, for His glory, it's all good.

AMen.

 

[Drew]

Re: Saved - Not By Works ...

Romans 2:6-8

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

The passage is talking about judgement, not salvation. Romans 2:6 is a reference to:

Psalm 62:12

and that you, O Lord, are loving.
Surely you will reward each person
according to what he has done.

It seems that Romans 2:6-7 is talking about rewards for good works, and not salvation.

I do not see how this works. Surely you realize that Paul writes this:

7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

....and not this:

7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give rewards other than eternal life

How can you possibly deny that Paul is connecting eternal life to "persistence in doing good" - Paul says what he says. How can you justify effectively suggesting that Paul does not mean "eternal life" when he writes "eternal life".

He did not write "rewards", he wrote "eternal life".

 

[glorydaz]

I'm confused here .... It seems like you were with the guys who are against the belief that we are saved by the work of Christ, and not by our own works. Are you changing sides now, or perhaps I mistook you for someone else ....

I have not "changed sides".

I believe that the work of Christ is what saves us. But I take everything Paul writes seriously, And in Romans 2, he says that eternal life will be given to those who persist in doing good.

My conclusion: The work of Christ transforms us into people who "cannot help but do good". As Paul writes "if any man is in Christ, he is a new creation". A "new creation" acts like a new creation - a "new creation" does not simply get "check-mark" of salvation.

That's all true, but I still don't believe Paul was talking of those who had gone on to being a spiritual man. He was talking in Chapter 2 about the Jews who were under the Mosaic law and the gentiles who were under the natural law. "Persisting in doing good" is speaking to the works of a pious man...both the natural man and the Jew under the law. He was leading the hearers up to the point he was making in Rom. 5. Picture a congregation of carnal man and spiritual man. He's leading them from when they lived in depravity, to being under the law (natural of stone), and then encourages them to go on to the resurrection into being a new man. In chapter one, Paul says this...

For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

Then he speaks of the judgment to come...These are people Paul is calling to repent. Those Jews who were relying on the law, and those gentiles who were relying on their good conscience. The treasures they thought they were laying up were their works. Paul was saying, you'll be judged on your works.

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Then we see him speak of the two groups...those who work good and those who work evil. Those who continue patiently in well doing and SEEK after eternal life...They are trying to please God and they are searching or looking for eternal life....Paul is telling them they will be judged on their works. Now that should make them think, huh?

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

After explaining about circumcision, he drops this bombshell on them...the heart and the spirit.

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Now he goes on to explain about faith and God's righteousness..He's telling them that even though they think they're righteous, either under the law or just pious by nature, why are they still being judged a sinner?

For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

Now, he's giving them the answer...he's preaching the gospel. He continues clear through chapter 5 telling them what they need to be saved....faith, justification, grace, and redemption.

Therefore by the deeds of the law (stone or natural) there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 

[Drew]

That's all true, but I still don't believe Paul was talking of those who had gone on to being a spiritual man. He was talking in Chapter 2 about the Jews who were under the Mosaic law and the gentiles who were under the natural law. "Persisting in doing good" is speaking to the works of a pious man...both the natural man and the Jew under the law. He was leading the hearers up to the point he was making in Rom. 5. Picture a congregation of carnal man and spiritual man. He's leading them from when they lived in depravity, to being under the law (natural of stone), and then encourages them to go on to the resurrection into being a new man. In chapter one, Paul says this...

I see no evidence, here in Romans 2, or elsewhere in Romans, that Paul is limiting the scope of application of the Romans 2 judgment to the unregenerate. Do you believe that you have made a case for this? Where?

gd: Let me ask you a direct question: Since you believe only the unregenerate are at the Romans 2 judgement at which eternal life is at issue, do you believe that none will get eternal life?

If you answer that none will get eternal life, how you explain this statement by Paul:

but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous

Do you honestly think that Paul would write this if he believed no one will be declared righteous at that judgement?

If you believe that some will indeed get eternal life based on their good works, then you are saying that one can get eternal life by works. And that is a huge problem for you as well.

 

[Drew]

Then he speaks of the judgment to come...These are people Paul is calling to repent. Those Jews who were relying on the law, and those gentiles who were relying on their good conscience. The treasures they thought they were laying up were their works. Paul was saying, you'll be judged on your works.

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Then we see him speak of the two groups...those who work good and those who work evil. Those who continue patiently in well doing and SEEK after eternal life...They are trying to please God and they are searching or looking for eternal life....Paul is telling them they will be judged on their works. Now that should make them think, huh?

You are not addressing the central challenge. Paul not only tells people they will be judged on their works, he says that those who persist in doing good will get.........what? Eternal life.

I do not see any desirable options for you here. Either you believe that some unregenerate will get eternal life based on their good works - a position I doubt you wish to embrace - or you believe that zero unregenerate people will get eternal life based on good works. And the problem with that is obvious - no competent writer would repeatedly assert that people will get eternal life based on good works and yet believe the number of such people is zero.

I know that you think that Romans 3 supports your view that Paul really means zero people will get eternal life at the Romans 2 judgement. I suggest that you misunderstand Romans 3 by not understanding that "works" in Romans 3 are works of the Torah, not "good works " in general.

Either way - no competernt writer would write Romans 2 annd yet believe that zero persons will get eternal life in the manner described.

 

[glorydaz]

I have already provided a detailed argument about how Ephesiains 2:8-9 is challenging the view that is the works of the Torah that justify. The works of the Torah are not "good works" in general - they are the works that mark out the Jew as distinct from the Gentile, including such things as circumcision, Sabbath, and kosher food laws.

Reading "works" as "good work" in Eph 2, and in Romans 4:2, is simply not true to context. I plan to argue shortly why Romans 4:2 has to be read as about "works of Torah", not "good works".

Eph. 2 is speaking to the born-again believer. We're quickened...born again. No longer living as children of disobedience. Sorry, Drew, I don't see any way this can be speaking of the Torah.
No longer Jew or Greek, but one in Christ. The Israel of God.
One body...one spirit...one faith....the church.

And Romans 4 is quite obviously speaking of justification before God by faith...not by works.

1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[Drew]

In summary, here are the problems with believing that no one will actually get eternal life by good works at the Romans 2 judgement:

1. Paul repeatedly asserts - and I mean repeatedly - that some will get a favourable outcome at the Romans 2 judgement. Mysteriously, we are expected to believe that the number of those = zero.

2. In any event, the basis for believing that Paul intends us to understand that zero persons will get eternal life at the Romans 2 judgement is that Romans 3 says no one is justified by "good works". Well, Romans 3 says no such thing - it says that no one will get justified by the works of the Law of Moses.

 

[Drew]

Sorry, Drew, I don't see any way this can be speaking of the Torah

You need to engage my argument which is provided earlier in this thread. Remember how you were convinced of the correctness of a similar argument in relation to stuff at the end of Romans 3.

Please - engage the argument. I believe it is detailed and clear. If I am wrong, you should be able to show where my argument fails.

But unless and until you (and vj) engage that argument, what can I do?

 

[Drew]

And Romans 4 is quite obviously speaking of justification before God by faith...not by works.

I don't think so. Romans 4:2 is about the works of the Law of Moses.

I claim that the vague (at least as a sentence unto itself) question of Romans 4:1:

1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter?

can be seen from context to really be this more specific question:

1What then shall we say? Have we found Abraham to be our forefather according to the flesh?

Paul is anticipating the position that his inclusion of Jew and Gentile in the covenant family, as per just a couple of sentences back in Romans 3:30, will cause people to wonder whether all Christians - Jew and Gentile alike - are to be considered part of the "fleshly" family of Abraham.

And Paul goes on to answer "no" to this question. "No" is the answer in Romans 4:2-8, since Abraham was not considered to be part of the covenant family in virtue of "works of Torah" (same thing goes for David too):

If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works (***I claim these are works of Torah, not moral good works), he had something to boast aboutâ€â€but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a] 4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him.

His answer is again "no" in verses 9-12, since Abraham was declared to be a covenant member before he was circumcised. The reader needs to ask himself: which makes more sense in light of 9-12 which deals with the topic of circumcision:

1. The works in verse 2 are "moral good works"
2. The works in verse 2 are "works of Torah" - those which demarcate the Jew from the Gentile.

Here is the relevant text:

Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

I'll cast my vote for number 2, since circumcision is clearly a demarcating aspect of Torah and not a matter of moral right or wrong and it makes more sense to have Paul continuing a single line of thought goes all the way back to Romans 3:30:

Since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith

Paul is clearly addressing the relation of the ethnic Jew to the Gentile in the context of the characterising the covenant family - he is not arguing against "Pelegianism" (or however that is spelled).

And finally the answer of "no" to the question of verse 1 is driven home in 16 - 17:

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations."He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

In light of the foregoing, the "man who works" in verses 4-5 functions as a metaphor and only as a metaphor. More later.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Not By Works ....

We have provided plenty of evidence from the Bible, which shows very clearly that salvation is not by works. You need to go back and read from the beginning of this thread, and pay close attention to all of the scriptural evidence supporting the Biblical doctrine of salvation by grace through faith, without any works of our own.

Where in this thread has there been any evidence that "good works" are not necessary for salvation? Please identify a specific post.

I would ask where it's been shown that good works are necessary for salvation.

If you're looking to James...that's quite a stretch.
It says nothing about salvation...it only speaks of faith.
James is speaking of there being two different kinds of faith.
Only one is a saving faith...the other is just lip-service.
Just as there are two kinds of belief. Only one is a saving belief.


The one faith is false....like the devils who believe.
They know God exists, but they don't put their trust in Him.
A man sees someone destitute, but he gives them no food, he do3s not have true faith...it's just lip service. There's absolutely nothing in this portion of scripture that speaks to salvation at all.
We're saved by grace...through faith. If it's a false faith, then we don't even get grace because our faith is a channel for grace. Works don't even enter into the picture if grace is not flowing through a true faith.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Of course not, it's not a real faith...it's not a saving faith.
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Nothing.
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. It's a false faith to begin with.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Oh vain man that claims to have a faith you don't have...what will it profit?

But what does the Word say about getting saved?
For one, grace is a gift...do we offer to pay for a gift, or is payment required?

Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

And what did Paul tell the prison keeper he needed to do to be saved? Believe.

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Jesus told us our work is to believe on Him.

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[shad]

Re: Not By Works ....

I would ask where it's been shown that good works are necessary for salvation.

Jesus tell us "if you love me keep my commandment". If you dont keep His commandments, you are not saved becasue you cannot be saved without loving Jesus. It is just simple logic, dude.

Keeping Jesus' commandments are absolutely necessary for Jesus' salvation.

 

[glorydaz]

Hello glorydaz:

I politely disagree with your admittedly very brief statement of what you see the book of Romans as being about. But I am sure that we will discuss that in the future.

But about Romans 2. I see nothing in Romans 2 that justifies seeing the “works†judgement applied only to the unregenerate. And while you did not say this directly, based on your comments about Romans 3, you must believe that zero persons will get eternal life at the Romans 2 judgement.

Paul cannot possibly believe this. No competent thinker would make clear statements about people getting eternal life, while believing that there will be zero such people. Is this what you think – that even though Paul repeatedly asserts that people will get eternal life based on “good worksâ€, he is only talking about what would be true if, in fact, all were not hopeless sinners as per Romans 3?

Well, apart from the incoherence of saying people will get eternal life at the Romans 2 judgement while believing that there will be zero such people, there is the further problem that Romans 3 never denies justification by good works – which you appear to then read back into Romans 2 and conclude that zero people will get eternal life by good works. Instead, Romans 3 denies that people are justified by doing the works of the Law of Moses. You seemed to accept my argument to this effect re some stuff near the end of Romans 3.

As you can imagine, I heartily embrace 2 Corinthians 5:10 and believe it endorses the position for which I am advocating – that all human beings will face a “good works†judgement. This is what I see Paul as saying in Romans 2. And I see nothing in 2 Corinthians 5 that transforms “we must all appear†into “only the unregenerate must appearâ€.

What I see in Rom. 2 is Paul leading people to the true Gospel.
Yes, 2 Cor. 5 speaks of standing before the judgment seat of Christ, and while I'd like to believe those people would be judged on their good deeds, I have a problem with that because Jesus tells us He is the way, and that no one cometh to the Father but by Him. I've always believed one has to be written in the Lamb's book of life to be saved...born again, and the Word seems to bear that out. But, that's the Lord's decision, not mine.

Rom. 2, though is only the middle of the lesson Paul is teaching. Notice how Paul speaks of the riches of God's goodness...and that it's God's goodness that leads to repentance.
God calls all men everywhere to repent. Also, after explaining to these people, the question remains, "7For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? "
After which, Paul goes on to explain the atonement for their sins...since no man is righteous without the blood covering His sin.

4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

And this....only the doers of the law (natural or stone- which Paul already covered) will be justified. Believers are justified by faith, but what of the good humanists who live a pious life but don't repent and accept atonement for their sins? All men sin and come short...

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Now will the law of sin and death prevail or the royal law of loving your neighbot (law of liberty)?
I honestly don't know.

 

[glorydaz]

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

How convenient you leave out part of Philippians, because it disagrees with your theology...

I'm going to have to chalk that up to malice, sir. I said Phil 2:12-13 and you read back only half of that...

{YOU} WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION IN FEAR AND TREMBLING.

YOU... WORK IT OUT...

Don't forget THAT part of Scriptures. I know it doesn't jive with your half truths, but Scriptures are much more dense than you try to make them out to be. Salvation is mysterious, and trying to narrow it down to cliches undercuts Paul's great claim on the wonders of the mysteries of God.

Philippians 3:9" And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Again, you haven't figured out what "synergy" means. I suggest you look it up promptly. Immediately.

I do not have MY OWN righteousness. It is not self-generated. It is a gift from God. AND IT IS MINE! I AM RIGHTEOUS IN GOD'S EYES. Not because of MYSELF, but because I am responsive to God's graces.

Let it be done to me according to your word...

I need God. Didn't you ever read Romans? The first three chapters clearly speak of EVERYONE'S need for God, both Greek and Jew. But not to cover us! To give us a gift which we can accept or not.

You had to dig kinda deep on that one, brother. I've quoted the scripture, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" many times on this thread.

It's not sinking in with you, is it...

It says I, the singular pronoun refering to SELF. ME. Not Christ...

Scriptures identifies the "worker" as me - in Christ. This is called "synergy". Thus, Paul can say he is a co-worker with God, and so forth.

The verse about being covered by robes of righteousness are not "my" theology"....it comes right out of the good book.

The book of the reformation, not the Bible. IF it came from Scriptures you would have provided me irrefutable proof, not ignoring the great majority of what I have written, and when you DO respond, it is the same old cliches that twist the clear meaning of Scriptures to suit your theology. It is YOURS because you believe in it, you own it, it's yours...

You can turn it into something dirty if you want, but if you check out the OT, it's used all the time. There is no shame in it unless your'e looking for shame.

All the time???

I suppose you've never heard of this being used as a type of Christ's covering of our sins, have you?

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

The "type" is only a "type" in the mind of the "Reformer" who has already invented a false gospel. Thus, they look for any thing that "covers" to be a type of Christ. Please. This is eigesis pure and simple.

They covered their naked bodies with skins, not Christ...

Christ doesn't "cover" us. We become PART of Christ, the BODY. You do not know the Scriptures.

The NT states over and over we are part of the BODY OF CHRIST. PARTICIPATE. SYNERGY. NOT "REPLACED", "COVERED". Toss aside like filthy rags...

The good news is not about sadistic people who cannot see they are "IN CHRIST", EVEN AFTER the Spirit comes to them.

Regards

And where does all this hostility come from?
You hurl out accusations of REFORMER like an evil monk from the dark ages.
Would you like me to hurl Catholic curses at you?

I simply won't talk to you if you have to be so nasty.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Salvation By Grace - Evidence ....

The evidence is all throughout the thread from the beginning up to the present. You will find plenty of evidence when you search yourself.

Simply name one verse, one text, or identify any post.

I have already shown that your position on Eph 2:8-9 is incorrect. Just name another text and I will show how it does not deny ultimate justification by "good works".

The entire chapter of Eph. is as clear as a bell. I don't know where you get the idea the Torah has any part of it. You keep talking about it as if it's a settled matter. It's talking to the born again believer...period. And there is no works salvation anywhere in it.