SALVATION

[Drew]

But nobody seems to know the difference between the "works of the law" (Paul) and the "works of faith" James.

Well. I believe that I understand it. And I agree with you on this matter. People stumble on this because in cases where it is clear that Paul is talking about works of the Law of Moses, people read this as "good works". I think your analysis of James is spot on.

So, you see, we do not disagree on everything .

If you agree with him, I can see you're not saying what I thought you were.

Now, you're both wrong.

No, we are not wrong. Failure to distinguish when Paul is addressing the "works of Torah" from "good works" in general has led many astray.

I have already provided a detailed argument about how Ephesiains 2:8-9 is challenging the view that is the works of the Torah that justify. The works of the Torah are not "good works" in general - they are the works that mark out the Jew as distinct from the Gentile, including such things as circumcision, Sabbath, and kosher food laws.

Reading "works" as "good work" in Eph 2, and in Romans 4:2, is simply not true to context. I plan to argue shortly why Romans 4:2 has to be read as about "works of Torah", not "good works".

 

[glorydaz]

Now to the bit about works. I know that Romans 2 is a challenge, but it is inspired scripture. And I really see no way to read the following without concluding that "good works" are the basis for the final judgement re salvation. Paul clearly says at least twice in a row in this text:

Let me ask you a very specific question. If "good works" don't get us saved, then what do you think Paul means he writes that to those who "persist in doing good", God will give "eternal life". This seems pretty clear to me. Some argue that "good works" determine "rewards", not eternal life. But Paul clearly identfies "persistence in doing good" as the basis for "eternal life" here.

Please engage this text. I think you will agree that Paul must mean something here. So what do you think he means?

Okay, I'll try, but I need to go back for a minute to the reason for the book of Romans. Paul gives an overall history. Chapter 1 is an overview of how man rejected the Creator from the early days of Genesis. How man satisfied his baser instincts. Then in chapter 2, Paul speaks of the judgment of God according to truth...telling how judgment by the law ...that circumcision alone availeth nothing. It's a kind of explanation of the code of law. Chapter three tells us how all have sinned...none are righteous, and how none are justified by works. That righteousness before God comes through the atoning sacrifice. Then chapter four goes on with the ritual not being enough and faith needed to be operating. It isn't until chapter 5 that Paul tells of justification of faith by the atoning blood...of being at peace with God through newness of life. Paul goes on through the remainder of Romans laying out the further walk we have in Christ...then a section on Israel and other practical applications of the Christian life.

But back to that section of Romans 2. He is speaking to the unregenerate Jews and gentiles. How the Jews living under the law and the gentiles living without the law, but controlled by their conscience, will be judged according to their works...based on their character alone..their piety, in other words. All will stand before the judgment seat of Christ, whether they have entered into a covenant relationship or not. These are the people who have not yet been born again a new creature, but will be judged solely on how they have lived their life here on earth.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

By the time you get to Romans 5, you'll see what else is needed to actually enter into life and peace with God....being filled with the Holy Spirit. First Paul speaks of justification and then he goes on to tell of santification and the atoning work of the cross. First must come the crucifixion with Christ and then living the resurrected life. Romans 2 is dealing with the people who haven't yet been raised into eternal life via the atonement....they are still to be judged on what kind of person they are.

 

[glorydaz]

You are trying to correct someone who actually knows the Scriptures as well as Drew on this subject???

I didn't want this to go unanswered. I have great respect for Drew. I haven't been here long, but I have seen he stands for Jesus reigning on His throne today, and that tells me a great deal about his maturity in the Lord. That said, we have a priesthood of believers. We don't believe one man has a greater revelation when it comes to the Word of God. I have been seen great truths come from a young believer who has been shown something from the scripture, and I realize the Holy Spirit is more than capable of teaching through all members of the body of Christ. That's why we're to labor together, without hanging on so tightly to doctrine that we can't hear the voice of our Lord when He speaks.

 

[glorydaz]

There is no dilemna in Chapter 2 "solved" in Chapter 3, because Chapter 2 mentions SPECIFICALLY that with God's grace, men are justified, with a Law written in their hearts!!!

THIS IS A DILEMNA???? WHERE??? Maybe for Pharisees...or "Reformers". But not in the Scriptures.

THIS IS GRACE AT WORK, and doesn't require works of the Law...

Chapter 2 gives an example of what men need. Absolutely and unequivocally. Grace... We have saved people in Chapter 2!!!

dilemna...

Yes, I can see you don't appreciate my take on Romans. ;)

The dilemma I was referring to was for the Jews. And if you see saved people in chapter 2 then just wait until you get to chapter 5. Those in chapter two were Jews who were under the law or gentiles that who were under the natural law and their conscience.....both groups needed to go on in order to be born again. These are people who will stand before the judgment seat of Christ judged on their works. Personally, I hope they go on to chapter 5.

 

[glorydaz]

vja4Him wrote;

I would avoid those teachers (Osteen and Warren) too ....

Those are just worst christians. OSAS doctrine pushers are in deep trouble with God too, IMHO, because they are misleading the world with this half truth doctrine.

How are they misleading? By giving people impression that Christians have free pass to sin. This is one of the main reasons why christians have reputation of being hypocrits.

.

People will get the impression they can sin no matter what doctrine they follow.
Those who trust in their works think they can sin as long as they work hard.

 

[vja4Him]

Avoiding the Issues as Usual ...

vja4Him wrote:

Again, you show your ignorance .... You know NOTHING of what my pastor (or other pastors I've learned from) teach and preach ... !!!

The fruit is showing vividly in your OSAS doctrine.

Have a nice day.

As usual, you continue to avoid the issue brought up ....

 

[glorydaz]

Just because I believe that my salvation is SECURE in the work of Jesus, does not mean that I am saying, ok you believe now, go out and sin all you want ... !!!

That is obsurd ... !!! I do not say that or believe that, and neither does my pastor, or ANY pastor I have even learned from, period ... !!! And I've listened to hundreds of good preachers who do NOT preach a license to sin ...

People just don't understand what the Holy Spirit does in the life of the believer.
He not only teaches and guides...he restrains, encourages, and reminds us as we walk through each and every day. The Lord did not leave us comfortless or helpless.

 

[vja4Him]

Justified Freely by God's Grace ...

Now to the bit about works. I know that Romans 2 is a challenge, but it is inspired scripture. And I really see no way to read the following without concluding that "good works" are the basis for the final judgement re salvation. Paul clearly says at least twice in a row in this text:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good

Let me ask you a very specific question. If "good works" don't get us saved, then what do you think Paul means he writes that to those who "persist in doing good", God will give "eternal life". This seems pretty clear to me. Some argue that "good works" determine "rewards", not eternal life. But Paul clearly identfies "persistence in doing good" as the basis for "eternal life" here.

Please engage this text. I think you will agree that Paul must mean something here. So what do you think he means?

You have to look at all the other verses too ....

Romans 3:21-24

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Which is very clear that we are not saved by our works, but by God's grace through Jesus Christ ...

 

[vja4Him]

Not Everyone Who Says Lord, Lord Will Enter Heaven

To those who disagree with my view on the relation between "faith" and "good works" in relation to salvation: Do you honestly believe that a person who has accepted Jesus will continue to lead a life devoid of good works?

Nobody is saying that a person who is truely saved will not have good works. Keep in mind that not everyone who has good works will be saved. Good works do not, and cannot ever save anyone.

True salvation comes through Christ only, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

When you stand before Almighty God, you will NOT be able to boast about any works that you did ... And if your works are what you are counting on to get you into heaven, you will be very disappointed ....

Matthew 7:21-23

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

 

[Drew]

Hello glorydaz:

I politely disagree with your admittedly very brief statement of what you see the book of Romans as being about. But I am sure that we will discuss that in the future.

But about Romans 2. I see nothing in Romans 2 that justifies seeing the “works†judgement applied only to the unregenerate. And while you did not say this directly, based on your comments about Romans 3, you must believe that zero persons will get eternal life at the Romans 2 judgement.

Paul cannot possibly believe this. No competent thinker would make clear statements about people getting eternal life, while believing that there will be zero such people. Is this what you think – that even though Paul repeatedly asserts that people will get eternal life based on “good worksâ€, he is only talking about what would be true if, in fact, all were not hopeless sinners as per Romans 3?

Well, apart from the incoherence of saying people will get eternal life at the Romans 2 judgement while believing that there will be zero such people, there is the further problem that Romans 3 never denies justification by good works – which you appear to then read back into Romans 2 and conclude that zero people will get eternal life by good works. Instead, Romans 3 denies that people are justified by doing the works of the Law of Moses. You seemed to accept my argument to this effect re some stuff near the end of Romans 3.

As you can imagine, I heartily embrace 2 Corinthians 5:10 and believe it endorses the position for which I am advocating – that all human beings will face a “good works†judgement. This is what I see Paul as saying in Romans 2. And I see nothing in 2 Corinthians 5 that transforms “we must all appear†into “only the unregenerate mustappearâ€.

 

[glorydaz]

vja4Him wrote:

Again, you show your ignorance .... You know NOTHING of what my pastor (or other pastors I've learned from) teach and preach ... !!!

The fruit is showing vividly in your OSAS doctrine.

Have a nice day.

Truth is, indeed, the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[vja4Him]

Saved - Not By Works ...

It sounds to me like you're saying the fruit is the natural result of walking in the Spirit, and that doesn't change being saved by faith in any way. We're saved by grace through faith when we believe. I don't see any works on our part involved in that at all.

Bingo.

But "good works" are still needed for ultimate salvation - Romans 2. But they are not "our" works - they are the works produced by the Holy Spirit.

But those works must be there or one will not receive eternal life. Romans 2.

This was addressed to Drew -- Even though you avoided my question ... You have now made your stance very clear. you do espouse a Salvation By Works doctrine ... which, by the way, is not Biblical..

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[shad]

Those who trust in their works think they can sin as long as they work hard.

Jesus tells us to be holy as He is Holy. Do you think you can be holy without any effort? No you cannot. You see, that's how you guys are deceiving the world with your kind of preaching.

We have told you tons of times that no one can do good works without God's help. God is seeking our heart, if we are striving to be faithful to Him, the Holy Spirit will help us to be holy.

.

 

[Drew]

Re: Justified Freely by God's Grace ...

You have to look at all the other verses too ....

Romans 3:21-24

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Which is very clear that we are not saved by our works, but by God's grace through Jesus Christ ...

No. When you say that "you have to look at other verses", this does not make Romans 2 text disappear. It must mean something - it is not mere vapour. Now glorydaz has told us he thinks it means. Fine - he (or she) has engaged the text and not dismissed it. Now I have problems with his (her) analysis, but that's another story. You seem to be saying that Paul contradicts himself when you simply point us to Romans 3 and claim that he is there denying the very thing he asserts in Romans 2.

In any event, this text from verse 3 simply never says that we are not justified by good works. Where does it say this? Let me anticipate your answer. You will say that verse 22 tells us that we are justified by faith. Fine. But to say this does not mean we are not justified by good works.

This may seem illogical to you, but I suggest that you are not following Paul’s whole argument. I think it is clear that Paul’s position is this: There will be a future judgement at which all human beings will be judged and granted eternal life based on the good works their lives manifest. But we can know in the present who will pass that judgement – those who by faith alone receive the Spirit who will produce the works they need to pass the Romans 2 judgement.

You may think this is a song and dance. Well this view arises from taking everything Paul writes seriously – and not sweeping Romans 2 under the carpet. Vj, please tell me what Paul means when he writes:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
It seems to me that you think he really doesn’t mean what he says. Paul says God will give according to what the person has done and then makes it clear that eternal life is at issue. Do you believe him?

 

[vja4Him]

Salvation By Grace - Evidence ....

We have provided plenty of evidence from the Bible, which shows very clearly that salvation is not by works. You need to go back and read from the beginning of this thread, and pay close attention to all of the scriptural evidence supporting the Biblical doctrine of salvation by grace through faith, without any works of our own.

Where in this thread has there been any evidence that "good works" are not necessary for salvation? Please identify a specific post.

I have seen Ephesian 2:8-9 used, but a clear, and as yet entirely refuted argument has been provided to show that Paul here is talking about the works of the Law of Moses, not the more general category of "good works".

The evidence is all throughout the thread from the beginning up to the present. You will find plenty of evidence when you search yourself.

 

[glorydaz]

Try to think of this analogy. Say that for some myseterious reason, you need to be able to lift 1000 pounds in order to win a prize of 1 million dollars. But there is no way that you can lift 1000 pounds. But then a doctor comes to you and says "if you take this drug, it will enable you to life 1000 pounds, guaranteed."

By an act of pure faith, you take the drug. Then, later, you lift the 1000 pounds.

It is your faith in the doctor that has produced the result, even though you still needed to lift the 1000 pounds. This is not a great analogy precisely because the Holy Spirit" is not like a drug - It is a powerful active agency at work in the life of the believer.

To those who disagree with my view on the relation between "faith" and "good works" in relation to salvation: Do you honestly believe that a person who has accepted Jesus will continue to lead a life devoid of good works?

We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. It's a great analogy.

From my own experience, I've found what I call amateur providence.
There have been times I've seen a need someone has, and I go out to fix the problem.
Then I find out later, I've just enabled that person instead of allowing the Lord to do a work in his life. As an example, if my child gets in trouble and gets taken to jail for something stupid they've done...like drinking and driving. I could go bail them out, and pay their fines, or I could allow the natural consequences of their actions take effect. What was the Lord's plan for that person? I may have thwarted it with my good intentions. I've learned to seek the Lord before I go out and do a work in my own strength. He can prevent us from taking an action, if we seek Him first. He can prompt us to go to a place we never would have thought of on our own. It all boils down to whether we go before the Lord or allow ourselves to be led. If we have little faith, our fruit may be sparse or non-existent..we'll need to be lifted up and pruned. If we have great faith, seeking to be obedient in all the Lord puts before us, our fruit will be abundant. If we have perfect faith, our fruit will be glorious and we'll experience perfect peace.

 

[Drew]

Re: Saved - Not By Works ...

Even though you avoided my question ... You have now made your stance very clear. you do espouse a Salvation By Works doctrine ... which, by the way, is not Biblical..

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

I am not sure what question I have avoided - please tell me.

For your part, you have avoided a detailed and comprehensive argument as to why the "works" here in Ephesians 2:8-9 are not "good works" but rather the works of the Law of Moses.

Why are you not engaging that argument? If I am right in asserting that Paul is denying justification by doing the Law of Moses, this does not entail a denial of justification by "good works" - the very thing Paul affirms in Romans 2.

vj: why are you not engaging that argument? Others will suspect that you are avoiding it since it undermines one of the pillars of your position - that in these verses Paul denies justification by "good works". So why not show us all where I am mistaken in that argument?

 

[Drew]

Re: Salvation By Grace - Evidence ....

The evidence is all throughout the thread from the beginning up to the present. You will find plenty of evidence when you search yourself.

Simply name one verse, one text, or identify any post.

I have already shown that your position on Eph 2:8-9 is incorrect. Just name another text and I will show how it does not deny ultimate justification by "good works".

 

[francisdesales]

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

How convenient you leave out part of Philippians, because it disagrees with your theology...

I'm going to have to chalk that up to malice, sir. I said Phil 2:12-13 and you read back only half of that...

{YOU} WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION IN FEAR AND TREMBLING.

YOU... WORK IT OUT...

Don't forget THAT part of Scriptures. I know it doesn't jive with your half truths, but Scriptures are much more dense than you try to make them out to be. Salvation is mysterious, and trying to narrow it down to cliches undercuts Paul's great claim on the wonders of the mysteries of God.

Philippians 3:9" And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Again, you haven't figured out what "synergy" means. I suggest you look it up promptly. Immediately.

I do not have MY OWN righteousness. It is not self-generated. It is a gift from God. AND IT IS MINE! I AM RIGHTEOUS IN GOD'S EYES. Not because of MYSELF, but because I am responsive to God's graces.

Let it be done to me according to your word...

I need God. Didn't you ever read Romans? The first three chapters clearly speak of EVERYONE'S need for God, both Greek and Jew. But not to cover us! To give us a gift which we can accept or not.

You had to dig kinda deep on that one, brother. I've quoted the scripture, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" many times on this thread.

It's not sinking in with you, is it...

It says I, the singular pronoun refering to SELF. ME. Not Christ...

Scriptures identifies the "worker" as me - in Christ. This is called "synergy". Thus, Paul can say he is a co-worker with God, and so forth.

The verse about being covered by robes of righteousness are not "my" theology"....it comes right out of the good book.

The book of the reformation, not the Bible. IF it came from Scriptures you would have provided me irrefutable proof, not ignoring the great majority of what I have written, and when you DO respond, it is the same old cliches that twist the clear meaning of Scriptures to suit your theology. It is YOURS because you believe in it, you own it, it's yours...

You can turn it into something dirty if you want, but if you check out the OT, it's used all the time. There is no shame in it unless your'e looking for shame.

All the time???

I suppose you've never heard of this being used as a type of Christ's covering of our sins, have you?

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

The "type" is only a "type" in the mind of the "Reformer" who has already invented a false gospel. Thus, they look for any thing that "covers" to be a type of Christ. Please. This is eigesis pure and simple.

They covered their naked bodies with skins, not Christ...

Christ doesn't "cover" us. We become PART of Christ, the BODY. You do not know the Scriptures.

The NT states over and over we are part of the BODY OF CHRIST. PARTICIPATE. SYNERGY. NOT "REPLACED", "COVERED". Toss aside like filthy rags...

The good news is not about sadistic people who cannot see they are "IN CHRIST", EVEN AFTER the Spirit comes to them.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

It sounds to me like you're saying the fruit is the natural result of walking in the Spirit, and that doesn't change being saved by faith in any way. We're saved by grace through faith when we believe. I don't see any works on our part involved in that at all.

Bingo.

But "good works" are still needed for ultimate salvation - Romans 2. But they are not "our" works - they are the works produced by the Holy Spirit.

But those works must be there or one will not receive eternal life. Romans 2.

Those who are under the law...natural or Mosaic...will be judged solely on their work.

Those who have been born again are filled with the Holy Spirit and they will have fruit.
We may not see it...we can't see their hearts or the love they show to their fellow man.

There are also those who get saved and die before they can produce any fruit to speak of...their love of God is their "work" and their fruit. So, of course, the Lord, alone, knows our heart. He, alone, knows if our heart has been circumcised and our repentance has been real. It's the heart condition our Lord looks at. If we love the Lord, we've already accomplished the work of God.