SALVATION

[vja4Him]

Ken Graves Sermons ...

everheard ken graves of calvary chapel of bangor maine?

Send me a link to his sermons with iTunes files, so I can load to my iTunes/iPod.

 

[francisdesales]

'

That's exactly what Paul is doing. His entire argument is about faith vs. works.

I fear that as usual, that is a half truth. The gist of the first three chapters of Romans is NOT about "faith vs works". That is the classical Reformer's attempt to rework the meaning of the Scriptures here.

What we have here is Paul expressing the NEED for God's salvation of men. ALL men need it. He is establishing the fact that both Jews and Gentiles need something from God. GRACE!

Gentiles, without grace, turn from God. Jews, with the Law, STILL turn from God, without the power to obey it (since the written word cannot help us to obey it). We are ALL in the same boat, both Jew and Gentile - we NEED God.

The Good News is that God gives the gift of Himself and His justification WILLINGLY AND FREELY.

This is not about "faith vs works"... This is about God wanting to draw men to Himself, and He does so, even though we don't deserve it.

Chapter three solves the dilema he intentionally created in chapter 2.

There is no dilemna in Chapter 2 "solved" in Chapter 3, because Chapter 2 mentions SPECIFICALLY that with God's grace, men are justified, with a Law written in their hearts!!!

THIS IS A DILEMNA???? WHERE??? Maybe for Pharisees...or "Reformers". But not in the Scriptures.

THIS IS GRACE AT WORK, and doesn't require works of the Law...

Chapter 2 gives an example of what men need. Absolutely and unequivocally. Grace... We have saved people in Chapter 2!!!

dilemna...

'

He's letting the Jews and everyone else know the Jews do not have a leg up on anyone else.

that is true. And he gives example of those who are made just by their actions in God, grace. The only dilemna is for the rabid law-abiding Jew, who must come to the realization that merely having the Mosaic Law does not necessarily save. It is only faith in God - which Gentiles can have without knowledge of the Mosaic Law - that saves.

And we ALL need this Grace (which works as an unwritten law in our hearts). Not the Written Law.

The law of faith is for all of us. The problem of people thinking they could work to gain righteousness was adressed to the gentiles first in the earlier chapter

Wrong. The Gentiles are not "gaining righteousness" by an attempt to work their way to salvation. Quite the opposite. THEY ARE IGNORING GOD AND COULD CARE LESS ABOUT WORKING TO GAIN RIGHTEOUSNESS...!!!

The point of the Gentile inclusion here is that without grace, they fall into sin.

THEY NEED GOD!

Chapter 2 describes Gentiles who WILL ENTER HEAVEN, justified by their actions - but remember - Paul states they DO those good deeds by the law written IN THEIR HEARTS! Remember the prophesies of Jeremiah and Ezekiel?

THEY NEED GOD!

The issue is ONLY PARTIALLY about "working to gain righteousnes", refering to the Jews. The Gentiles are not being accused of "working to gain righteousness", thus, your attempt to tell us the meaning of romans 1-3 is a faith vs works is not correct.

Paul is stating that we ALL need God's salvation, expressed as being made just in God's eyes..

He has given it to the Gentiles - proven by their being made just in God's eyes by their faith working in love.

He has given it to the Jews - proven by the many men marked as being righteous in the OT and the NT, even before Christ. He refers to Hab. to tell us this is not something new.

Walking from faith to faith. A result of God's gracious gifts, NOT a result of our earning it.

Paul establishes the fact that all men need something from God and God offers it freely - Justification. God offers men, all men, justification. If it is freely offered, we don't have to earn it. He then gives examples from salvation history on how God freely justified men, totally by grace.

Regards

 

[vja4Him]

everheard ken graves of calvary chapel of bangor maine?

No sir, I haven't.
Westtexas

look him up @ ccbangor.org and look for the radio broadcast called God's Sword. listen and you tell me, he is a little opionated on somethings that aren't really necessary but he's bold.

he has no love for the doctrines of joel osteen and rick warren.

jason, and btw merry christmas.

I would avoid those teachers (Osteen and Warren) too ....

 

[vja4Him]

I've Read All the Posts in This Thread ... !!!

I think your analysis of James is spot on.

Well, you're wrong, too. Instead of ignoring this...please read it...really read it.
A man is justified by works....but not before God. That's very important and you continue to ignore it.
I'm very disappointed in you, Drew. Are you going to take all of scripture or ignore what doesn't fit your theory? I at least take the time to explain what you and others put forth. Everyone else ignores the proof. Are you going to, also?

Please do not patronize me and descend to the form of "debate" that so many engage in here. Please do not make these baseless accusations and insinuations. Let's be clear - you have precisely zero real evidence to support these speculations that I ignore material - do you think that because I do not address each ands every post right away that I am "ignoring" you or that I do not take these discussions seriously. I think you will find, perhaps to your discomfort, that I take these matters very seriously indeed. I intend to address all your concerns as time permits. And please - you have absolutely no basis for any suggestion that I "reject" scripture that does not fit "my theory". What do you think? I have nothing else to occupy my time.

I have not read all the posts - have you, or anyone else, an explanation for the "salvation by works" text I posted from Romans 2?

I have read all of the posts in this thread! I'm still waiting for you to address your contradiction ... I'm sure that you will get around to it soon ...

 

[shad]

vja4Him wrote;

I would avoid those teachers (Osteen and Warren) too ....

Those are just worst christians. OSAS doctrine pushers are in deep trouble with God too, IMHO, because they are misleading the world with this half truth doctrine.

How are they misleading? By giving people impression that Christians have free pass to sin. This is one of the main reasons why christians have reputation of being hypocrits.

.

 

[vja4Him]

The Precious Blood of Jesus ...

Look at Abraham. We see Abraham's faith was counted for righteousness.

I am perfectly aware of this. But, and this ironic in light of your implication that I ignore material, I have to account for Romans 2 (not to mention other "works-justification" texts that I have not even brought up yet).

Yes, Paul asserts "justification by faith". And yes, he asserts (e.g. in Romans 2) that ultimate justifcation is based on the quality of the life led.

So what do we do? Well, I believe that nothing Paul writes can be ignored. I will not argue the point in detail right now, but I believe Paul's basic position is this: Yes, the ultimate salvation of each person will be based on the "good works" (Romans 2). But we can anticipate a successful verdict in the present for every one who, in the present, does nothing more than place faith in Jesus. This is because faith brings the Spirit and the Spirit produces the works.

Romans 2, Romans 2, Romans 2. As much as some may not "like it", it is there.

So, according to your, Drew, the ULTIMATE outcome of our salvation does NOT depend upon anything that Jesus Christ did .... Hmmm ... That no longer sounds like border-line blasphemy, but blatent blasphemy .... Dangerous ground to trod my friend ....

Trust in the COMPELTE WORKS of Jesus Christ, who died on the cross, shed His precious blood, to redeem us from the curse of sin.

You must trust in Jesus alone for your salvation. This teaching against salvation by faith alone has gone so far that it's turned into a war zone, and the casualties are those who have been led astray by the false teachings ...

Your salvation must depend upon Jesus alone. There is nothing that you can do to save your own soul, or anyone else. Jesus paid the price, in full. Trust in the promises of God, from His Word, the Bible.

Romans 5:9-11

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. (NKJ)

You are justified by the blood of Jesus, not your works. You can't do enough works to save even a worm ... !!!

Those who put the faith and hope in their works just might be sore disappointed in the end .... You must put all of your faith and hope in what Jesus Christ did (His works alone):

1 Peter 1:18-21

18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

 

[vja4Him]

Message of The Cross of Jesus Christ ...

And you're a false accuser. I have answered and given you a mountain of scripture, which you, in your arrogance, continue to ignore. You were even agreeing at one point, but you must have gone off and filled yourself anew with your false doctrine.

Just because you don't have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, you assume no one else can.

Had you been born again, you would know all these things....yet you know none of them.

You have a head knowledge but no heart knowledge...you grieve the Holy Spirit because you doubt God's power to keep those who are His.
Like a horse, you can be led to the living water, but I can't make you drink.
When you have assurance, you will have Christ in you. Until then, you can not even know what it is.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[/quote]

Without the Holy Spirit, people are blinded to the truth of God's Holy Word ...

1 Corinthians 1:18-24 -- Christ the Wisdom and Power of God

18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[a]

20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

 

[vja4Him]

Justified In Man's Eyes ...

n

The fruit of the Spirit are the "works" of Christ through us. And, indeed, they will manifest in good deeds. .

So according to you, the fruit of the Spirit causes us to be justified ?

Yes, justified in man's eyes ....

 

[vja4Him]

vja4Him wrote;

I would avoid those teachers (Osteen and Warren) too ....

Those are just worst christians. OSAS doctrine pushers are in deep trouble with God too, IMHO, because they are misleading the world with this half truth doctrine.

How are they misleading? By giving people impression that Christians have free pass to sin. This is one of the main reasons why christians have reputation of being hypocrits.

.

Again, you show your ignorance .... You know NOTHING of what my pastor (or other pastors I've learned from) teach and preach ... !!!

Yes, there are some preachers who preach a license to sin, like the ordained homosexual preachers for example. But they are not the only ones.

My pastor does NOT preach a license to sin, and he has made that VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY clear many times over ... !!! You have never sat in my church, and so you do NOT know what my preacher preaches.

Don't broadbrush everyone into the same category ... !! OK ... !!! Please be more careful and precise with your accusations.

Just because I believe that my salvation is SECURE in the work of Jesus, does not mean that I am saying, ok you believe now, go out and sin all you want ... !!!

That is obsurd ... !!! I do not say that or believe that, and neither does my pastor, or ANY pastor I have even learned from, period ... !!! And I've listened to hundreds of good preachers who do NOT preach a license to sin ...

 

[glorydaz]

ALONE, my works cannot save myself. In Christ, MY works are indeed righteous.

Our boasting is excluded by the law of faith.

Wrong, our boasting in OURSELVES ALONE is excluded.

I cannot say "I was a good boy, I did it all by myself. I obeyed your commandments, God, and no one helped me".

We cannot make that statement.

I believe the best statement in Scriptures on synergism is Philippians 2:12-13. It shows the fact that God and men work TOGETHER. Thus, we have nothing to boast, because it is God who moves us to do good.

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

Our own will is not alone in choosing the good, so we cannot justify ourselves. We are MADE just, nevertheless, because WE are involved in "let it be done to me according to your word". We have the choice to say "no, God, I'm not going along with that program". Those who accept God's plan in their lives are MADE just, just as Abraham was just in God's eyes through faith.

Naturally, we don't boast in ourselves alone... God gives us freely His graces. How can we boast? Paul goes on in Romans 4:4 to say that a work has earned payment. When we have earned payment, it is no longer a gift. Salvation is a gift, freely given. It is not earned. So Paul is stating that we cannot give OURSELVES the credit.

It's His robe of righteousness we're covered with. We have no righteousness of our own.

Where does the New Testament say we are "covered with Christ's righteousness" or that "we have no righteousness of our own"? Does Jesus ever state He is coming into the world to "cover us with His righteousness"??? This is the invention of the Reformation.

Do you doubt what God has stated? WE ARE MADE RIGHTEOUS. It is a freely given given, this righteousness.

We don't earn that righteousness. True.
It is made our righteousness. True.
Those who choose to cast aside the gift of righteousness cannot enter heaven. True.

You have emasculated the Gospel with this "covering" business. It totally misunderstands who God is and what He is doing in this world to draw men to Himself. God is calling us into a relationship. CALLING. Reflect on that word - calling. There is no connotation of "force" here. It is a calling of love. Furthermore, there is no "covering". When God SAYS He will change our hearts from stone to one that obeys His commands (see Ezekiel and Jeremiah), HE WILL DO IT. There is NO NEED TO PRETEND for God.

When He says He will MAKE us just, He does it. He doesn't "throw" Christ over us to "sneak" us into heaven. This is NOT the Good News!!!

[quote="Philippians 3:9":1gikdq23]And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

WE WILL TAKE ON THE DIVINE NATURE. Not just pretend to... We will be presented pure and spotless to the Christ as a Bride. Not in God's imagination, but in reality... Only the pure will see God - not the pretend pure...

Nor did I ever claim God replaces man.

You do, over and over again, when you say "Christ covers us" or "man is filthy rags" or "we are not made just, it is Christ's righteousness that covers us"...

Your "theology" clearly has God pretending that man is not really just, when God has the power to bring about a NEW life within us.

"1 Corinthians 10:31"
Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

That doesn't say that God takes all the credit. It says we are to recognize that all we do should reflect God's glory. We are the visible Body of Christ, His continued visible presence in the world. Thus, all that we do should glorify God, just as all Christ did glorified God. It is not a sign that I am "covered" and am filthy rags... All we do should glorify God, not "God gets all the credit"...

We're to give all glory to God....unless you want to get eaten by worms.

"John 7:18" He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Yet again, this doesn't say that I do nothing and God does everything. Stop twisting the meaning of Scriptures. All that I do, I do in Christ. But it remains ME doing it... I am not a puppet, God has given us free will.

I must say "let it be done to me according to your will.

It is this "YES" that will be judged at the end of time, not Jesus Christ...

Have you read Matthew 25, the final judgment? Christ clearly tells us that it is "YOU" who are feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, visiting those in jail, etc - OR not... It doesn't say "I am feeding the hungry because humans are filthy rags. It says "YOU fed ME".

Once that sinks in, the idea of synergy, you may begin to come to understand the Good News, that God wants us to join Him in His own divine Nature, starting the moment we are born from above. There is no phony declarations, pretend justifications, or God looking the other way as we sneak in under Jesus' "covering" into heaven.

It's all real.

Regards[/quote:1gikdq23]

You had to dig kinda deep on that one, brother. I've quoted the scripture, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" many times on this thread. The verse about being covered by robes of righteousness are not "my" theology"....it comes right out of the good book. You can turn it into something dirty if you want, but if you check out the OT, it's used all the time. There is no shame in it unless your'e looking for shame.

I suppose you've never heard of this being used as a type of Christ's covering of our sins, have you?

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

And this means nothing since it's in the OT?

Now therefore arise, O LORD God, into thy resting place, thou, and the ark of thy strength: let thy priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, and let thy saints rejoice in goodness.

And, of course, clothed isn't covered here, either.

Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

 

[glorydaz]

A man is justified by works....but not before God. That's very important and you continue to ignore it.
I'm very disappointed in you, Drew. Are you going to take all of scripture or ignore what doesn't fit your theory? I at least take the time to explain what you and others put forth. Everyone else ignores the proof. Are you going to, also?

You are trying to correct someone who actually knows the Scriptures as well as Drew on this subject???

Again, you need to actually go and read what the Bible says, rather than telling us what your false preachers tell you...

James is refering to the near-sacrifice of Isaac. WHO is there? Is there an audience of men watching, so they can "know Abraham is just???

No, the Audience is God, and God alone.

Furthermore, WHO knows that Abraham is now just, after he was about to sacrifice Isaac???

GOD!!!

And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here [am] I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me. Gen 22:11-12

Again, no men were present to see this just act.

If James was talking about being just before men, he couldn't have chosen a worse example...

Thus, we must toss aside this theology into the garbage where it belongs.

LOL My preacher is the Holy Spirit. He gave me that.
Abraham was justified by faith unto God in chapter 15.
Men down through the ages have counted Abraham justified by his lifting of the knife. :amen

 

[shad]

vja4Him wrote:

Again, you show your ignorance .... You know NOTHING of what my pastor (or other pastors I've learned from) teach and preach ... !!!

The fruit is showing vividly in your OSAS doctrine.

Have a nice day.

 

[Drew]

I apologize if I've lumped you in with the rest, and I'm really sorry I came across as patronizing. I've been patronized enough, myself, on this thread so I should have realized I would react in the flesh. Your posts have confused me because you keep referring to works. I've seen, now, that you see them as not our own self-effort, but the outworkings of our faith. I do not see what you see in Romans 2...that could be because I'm not exactly sure what you're saying. If you're saying that our works help get us saved, then I disagree.

Thanks for your charitable attitude.

Now to the bit about works. I know that Romans 2 is a challenge, but it is inspired scripture. And I really see no way to read the following without concluding that "good works" are the basis for the final judgement re salvation. Paul clearly says at least twice in a row in this text:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good

Let me ask you a very specific question. If "good works" don't get us saved, then what do you think Paul means he writes that to those who "persist in doing good", God will give "eternal life". This seems pretty clear to me. Some argue that "good works" determine "rewards", not eternal life. But Paul clearly identfies "persistence in doing good" as the basis for "eternal life" here.

Please engage this text. I think you will agree that Paul must mean something here. So what do you think he means?

 

[Drew]

Re: Not By Works ....

Paul practically wrote the whole new testament and started umpteen churches throughout the world, he was beaten and stoned for the gosple that you are blaspheming.

Entirely unacceptable. Your sense of outrage that some of us do not share your position is not legitmate currency in this discussion and you have no right to suggest that I and others are blaspheming the gospel.

Romans 2, Romans 2, Romans 2: You may not like what it says, but it says what it says. The awarding of eternal life will be based on the content of the life as lived.

But as I have written already, this is not a denial of justification by faith. Equivalently, it is neither an affirmation that "moral self-effort" contributes to our salvation. I will repeat: When, in the present, a person accepts Jesus as Saviour by an act of pure faith, the Spirit is guaranteed to that person. And what does the Spirit do? Sit around? No. As per Romans 8, the Spirit guides the way we live so that we become conformed to the image of Jesus.

Result: At the great coming judgement, those whose faith is real will manifest those works and be thereby granted eternal life.

This is a little more complicated than "check mark theology" where all that matter is a one-time declaration of faith. But that theology ignores Romans 2 (and other passasges).

 

[Drew]

and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

This verse in no way undermines the position I am advocating. What is "the Law"? It is the Torah - the Law of Moses. Paul is saying that one does not become justified on the basis of being a Jew - read the first part of the chapter. And then Paul affirms justification by faith.

But Paul still wrote Romans 2 and meant it.

Try to think of this analogy. Say that for some myseterious reason, you need to be able to lift 1000 pounds in order to win a prize of 1 million dollars. But there is no way that you can lift 1000 pounds. But then a doctor comes to you and says "if you take this drug, it will enable you to life 1000 pounds, guaranteed."

By an act of pure faith, you take the drug. Then, later, you lift the 1000 pounds.

It is your faith in the doctor that has produced the result, even though you still needed to lift the 1000 pounds. This is not a great analogy precisely because the Holy Spirit" is not like a drug - It is a powerful active agency at work in the life of the believer.

To those who disagree with my view on the relation between "faith" and "good works" in relation to salvation: Do you honestly believe that a person who has accepted Jesus will continue to lead a life devoid of good works?

 

[Drew]

It sounds to me like you're saying the fruit is the natural result of walking in the Spirit, and that doesn't change being saved by faith in any way. We're saved by grace through faith when we believe. I don't see any works on our part involved in that at all.

Bingo.

But "good works" are still needed for ultimate salvation - Romans 2. But they are not "our" works - they are the works produced by the Holy Spirit.

But those works must be there or one will not receive eternal life. Romans 2.

 

[Drew]

Re: Not By Works ....

We have provided plenty of evidence from the Bible, which shows very clearly that salvation is not by works. You need to go back and read from the beginning of this thread, and pay close attention to all of the scriptural evidence supporting the Biblical doctrine of salvation by grace through faith, without any works of our own.

Where in this thread has there been any evidence that "good works" are not necessary for salvation? Please identify a specific post.

I have seen Ephesian 2:8-9 used, but a clear, and as yet entirely refuted argument has been provided to show that Paul here is talking about the works of the Law of Moses, not the more general category of "good works".

 

[Drew]

I'm confused here .... It seems like you were with the guys who are against the belief that we are saved by the work of Christ, and not by our own works. Are you changing sides now, or perhaps I mistook you for someone else ....

I have not "changed sides".

I believe that the work of Christ is what saves us. But I take everything Paul writes seriously, And in Romans 2, he says that eternal life will be given to those who persist in doing good.

My conclusion: The work of Christ transforms us into people who "cannot help but do good". As Paul writes "if any man is in Christ, he is a new creation". A "new creation" acts like a new creation - a "new creation" does not simply get "check-mark" of salvation.

 

[Drew]

Okay, now you are contradicting yourself ...

I have not contradicted myself.

It only seems that way to you. And I suspect the reason is that you do not make the distinction between the works of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer and the works of unaided "moral self-effort".

 

[Drew]

Re: You are Contradicting Yourself ... !!!

You are clearly straddling the fence .... Make up your mind. Which side are you on:

1) Salvation by grace through faith, without our own works

or

2) Salvation by Jesus and your own works

Here is what I mean. This is a false choice. You have omitted this "third" option:

3) Salvation by grace through faith as necessarily evidenced by the works of the Holy Spirit.

I hope this clarifies things.