SALVATION

[glorydaz]

In Romans 2, there is a statement about the “law†being written on the heart of the Gentile:

Well, I still think it is the eternal law of God...here's Job

Acquaint now thyself with him, and be at peace: thereby good shall come unto thee. Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth, and lay up his words in thine heart.

Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?

He fashioned the hearts alike...of the earth.

From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth. He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works.

 

[Panin]

And what did Paul tell the prison keeper he needed to do to be saved? Believe.

No one is denying that we need to believe to be saved.

But, and I cannot emphasize this enough, Paul was not kidding when he wrote that "to those who persist in doing good, God will give eternal life". Paul's position is this: Ultimate justification is based on good works - Paul tells us in no uncertain terms in Romans 2. But we can know in advance who will manifest those works. Who are those people? Those who believe.

Again an analogy. At your 100 birthday party people ask your doctor how you lived so long. You answer correctly - it was the "work" of that pacemaker I had installed when I was 70. And when you were 70, what happened? - you accepted gift of the pacemaker on faith alone. That act, at age 70, was an act of faith and faith alone.

Is that any clearer?

No pace maker - no work. Work and no pace maker - THE END

Thank you very much

 

[francisdesales]

LOL My preacher is the Holy Spirit. He gave me that.
Abraham was justified by faith unto God in chapter 15.
Men down through the ages have counted Abraham justified by his lifting of the knife. :amen

The Holy Spirit gave you no such thing. This is from you and false teachers who don't understand clear English.

The bible says something else. I gave you the verses. But as usual, you pretend they don't exist and continue on your merry way with the crazy idea that Abraham was justified in front of men.

Not a man was present at the incident, what's the matter with you?

God says "NOW I KNOW YOU FEAR GOD".

Men are not mentioned anywhere, OT OR NT, in the discussion of this pericope. This is a fine example of twisting the Scriptures and ignoring the obvious statements made by God through Scriptures.

Abraham was justified in God's sight by his faith working in action! THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT of James 2!!! To merely SAY you have faith is meaningless, for even the devil has faith that God exists. Faith is dead unless it moves us to love. All the faith in the world is NOTHING without love, according to Paul. NOTHING!

Faith alone is NOTHING...

 

[francisdesales]

Okay, I'll try, but I need to go back for a minute to the reason for the book of Romans. Paul gives an overall history. Chapter 1 is an overview of how man rejected the Creator from the early days of Genesis. How man satisfied his baser instincts. Then in chapter 2, Paul speaks of the judgment of God according to truth...telling how judgment by the law ...that circumcision alone availeth nothing. It's a kind of explanation of the code of law. Chapter three tells us how all have sinned...none are righteous, and how none are justified by works. That righteousness before God comes through the atoning sacrifice.

Again, half truths. You see this because you view the entire Bible through the lenses of "faith vs works". When you BEGIN an approach to Scriptures with that mentality, you will explain away everything that the Bible speaks to the contrary of this "faith vs works" concept of yours.

As I have already stated and been conveniently ignored by OSAS people, Romans 1-3 is about the need for ALL men to receive God's Graces. IT does NOT establish a battle of "faith vs works"!!! Chapter 2 says that men "working" WILL ATTAIN eternal life!!! This is not theoretical, because the SPIRIT is not theoretical. It says a LAW HAS BEEN WRITTEN ON THEIR HEARTS. It has been DONE already.

Thus, Paul recognizes that there are Gentiles of good will. The idea of "only Jews/Christians are good people" is recognized as an oversimplification. It becomes obvious to cosmopolitian Jews/Christians that there ARE Gentiles of good will - who know NOTHING about the Law or about jesus Christ. Yet they love!!!

How does Paul explain this REALITY? (not a theoretical idea - it is obvious as the nose on your face that there are good NON-CHRISTIAN people) By stating that it is the HOLY SPIRIT who moves where HE will, to write a "LAW" on the hearts of Gentiles, and that becomes a law onto itself... In line with OT prophet statements of the New Covenant.

WITHOUT this Spirit working in the Gentile, Paul notes the fate of mankind in Chapter 1. Chapter 2 points out that the JEWS are NOT the only saved people, making the written Law, MOOT, in the discussion of the only means of salvation. HOW can Gentiles be saved without the Mosaic Law!!!! The Holy Spirit allows them to do WORKS!!! WORKS!!!

These works are not the result of their OWN spirit and principle. Chapter one describes man without God. But the Spirit enables men of chapter 2, without the Law, to become SAVED for ETERNAL LIFE!!!

Chapter 3 continues to shame the Jews. "WHAT GOOD WAS THE MOSAIC LAW"? The Jews are no better WITH the Law then men WITHOUT the Law...

Heck, some men are saved EVEN WITHOUT the written Law!!!

Thus, the written Law does not save. If it did, Jewish history would have been drastically different. What saves is God. And we ALL need this grace. it is only faith in God and His loving grace that moves us to WORK, doing acts of love.

Really, to say we are saved without doing good works of love, TOTALLY TWISTS the Bible. Over and over, we are told that we HAVE to do such things to enter heaven. Doing evil will condemn us. The Bible states that these works are not our own, but just the same, they become ours as we are part of the Body.

Being attached to the Body = eternal life. Remain part of the root, whether as a wild shoot
or a natural part, and you'll have eternal life. Cut yourself off, and forget about it...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Do Works Really Save You ... ???

Do works really save you ... ???

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Notice that some people's works will be burned up. There was obviously something wrong with their works! So, according to your theology (that you must have works to be saved), they should lose their salvation!

This means that not everything we do are worthy of being true disciples of God. Even Paul mis-stepped from time to time. THOSE works are "burned up", (actually, we are burnt) meaning the wrath of God will bring about some suffering to cleanse us for the purpose of making us more holy.

We don't earn our way into heaven, but God does not turn aside from evil, even done by His children. Thus, Paul uses this situation AGAINST SAVED CORINTHIANS who were doing the work of evil - and even warns them in the next verse that you didn't get to - that they can LOSE THEIR SALVATION. (do you think whom God destroys is saved for eternal life? Better consult Scriptures to find a verse to back that up...)

Thus, their scandal, dissension and schism were works that would eventually be "burned away" by the judgment of God. Some would remain saved because they had not totally spurned the Love of God.

BUT ... They did NOT lose their salvation! They lost their works, which were burned up. But they were STILL SAVED ... !!!

This interpretation comes from "faith vs works" theology that forces EVERYTHING through the seive. Their "works" weren't burned up, they didn't "lose their works"!!!

THE MAN is "burnt". Meaning, he will suffer judgment, whether here on earth or elsewhere. He will be PUNISHED. God is offended by sin, even (or especially) by sin from His children. But he has not lost heaven. Yet. AGAIN, continue to read this passage, esp. verse 17...

And that's not alll ... Read the above scriptures carefully, and you will see clearly that if my works survive, I will receive what ... ??? Not salvation, but rather my rewards ... !!!

You see, our works are for our rewards, not for our salvation.

Wrong. Our faith working in love determines our final destination, since even Christians are judged based upon what they DID!!! Haven't you read Revelation? It states that SEVERAL times, among many other places. Whether we must suffer punishment or not, here or the next life, that depends upon how much we are still attached to earthly, fleshy things. This must be burnt away, the dross of our life, so we can become purified, since NO ONE will see God who is impure.

Where does the Bible say that "bad works" brings about lesser rewards??? Bad works is sin, and does not rate ANY rewards. Sin brings about death, not "lesser rewards".

Jesus already did the work on the cross.

jesus CONTINUES to work, even today...

His blood is what saves us.

that is made clear AS we obey Him... You aren't saved by the blood of Christ while in sin.

We need to put our faith in Jesus, not our works.

No one here has said they put their faith in "their works" alone. The good works we do are "MINE AND JESUS", since I am part of the Body of Christ. I live, but it is Christ who lives in me.

Thus, at final judgment, I PERSONALLY am judged. NOT JESUS Christ. Did I REMAIN in Christ? Were my works with Christ worthy of eternal life? At the final judgment (as Matt 25 points out), it is ME who must love JESUS, hidden in the faces of others. Without my love, without my feeding the hungry, etc., I will NOT be saved for eternal life. Thus, how can you say that works are NOT part of the formula???

Clearly, in the parables of Christ refering to the Kingdom and final judgment, in every case, we see that our actions IN CHRIST must be prominent and made manifest for all to see. WITHOUT those "works", in Christ, you are not saved.

THIS is not "works salvation", because we clearly know that it is God who impels us, guides us, moves us to DO those works.

Check out my signature, unchanged for quite some time. THAT is the attitude of the follower of Christ. Nothing sadistic like manure covered in snow. it is the recognition that God works within me, but it is STILL ME! I am a new creation. Don't you believe you are a new creation???

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

LOL My preacher is the Holy Spirit. He gave me that.
Abraham was justified by faith unto God in chapter 15.
Men down through the ages have counted Abraham justified by his lifting of the knife. :amen

The Holy Spirit gave you no such thing. This is from you and false teachers who don't understand clear English.

The bible says something else. I gave you the verses. But as usual, you pretend they don't exist and continue on your merry way with the crazy idea that Abraham was justified in front of men.

Not a man was present at the incident, what's the matter with you?

Faith alone is NOTHING...

Okay...I was reading my Bible and a false teacher came up and whispered in my ear.
Have it your way.

Abraham was justified by faith here.
Notice he had no child yet. Also notice he believed and it was counted him for righteousness.

And Abram said, LORD God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? 3And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. 4And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 5And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Odd, it looks like faith alone to me.

 

[glorydaz]

Again, half truths. You see this because you view the entire Bible through the lenses of "faith vs works". When you BEGIN an approach to Scriptures with that mentality, you will explain away everything that the Bible speaks to the contrary of this "faith vs works" concept of yours.

When you begin an approach to Scriptures with the mentality you need to do something, yourself, to be saved, you deny the words of our Saviour.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

True faith is believing Jesus can do this.

And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

Our salvation is a gift. In the ages to come His exceeding kindness will be known. And, yet, there are some who seek to steal that glory by claiming they had a hand in their own salvation.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Drew]

Hello gd:

You have claimed that in Romans 2, the judgement that is described only applies to the unregenerate who lived before Jesus.

The text does not say this anywhere and you have been challenged to explain why you think these qualifiers apply.

None of your responses address my questions. You write about how a distinction is being drawn between Jew and Gentile. I am perfectly aware of this, but it does not address my question.

Paul describes a coming judgement at which God will judge "each man" by his work with eternal life in the balance. Now please explain why you think that Paul means that God will judge "each unregenerate man who lived before Christ", given that Paul never, repeat nevers, adds such qualifiers.

 

[Drew]

I think it's the natural law...the eternal law that has been in the heart of man from the beginning. there are quite a few scripture to support that. The conscience ....

With all due respect, you simply are not engaging a clear argument whose conclusion you do not agree with.

This is not the right way to conduct a debate. Please engage the argument - if i am wrong, you should be able to show that I am wrong.

 

[Drew]

Re: Bump for Drew ....

[I do see where you're coming from, but I still think it is saying if you seek with all your heart you will find. All these things will be added onto you.

How can I argue with this? - you deny the very plain words that are written. You are arguing like someone who reads this statement:

"Father gave Johnny an apple for cleaning his room"

....and then says "I see where you are coming from, but I think it is saying that Father gave Johnny an orange for cleaning his room."

The text says what it says and we need to deal with it - even though many in the reformed tradition simply sweep this (and other) texts under the rug.

You then quote other texts that talk about how, indeed, God does give us all sorts of things otherthan eternal life based on what we do.

I trust you realize that is bad logic to argue thusly:

1. God gives us things other than eternal life based on what we do;
2. Therefore any statement that God gives us eternal life based on what we do cannot mean what it says and "eternal life" must refer to those other things.

 

[Drew]

No pace maker - no work. Work and no pace maker - THE END

Thank you very much

You are simply avoiding my argument. But you are in good company in this respect.

The interesting question is this "Why are so many of my arguments being avoided, given the rather obvious motivation you and others have to show they are mistaken"

The most likely answer: You cannot find an error in those arguments.

Nobody is engaging my Ephesians 2 arguments despite being repeatedly challenged to do so.

 

[Drew]

[Odd, it looks like faith alone to me.

I suggest that the reason for this is that you are insisting on your understanding of what faith is and what it brings about, and ignoring the Biblical definition.

I have scanned fds's posts and I think he is right to point the fundamental incoherence of thinking that the concept of faith can be disentangled from a way of actually living.

On another board, a certain poster was making all sorts of untrue and inflammatory statements about a public figure. I challenged him on that and asked him about he would deal with this on judgement day.

He basically responded that he was not concerned - that he had what he termed "an advocate" who would stand in for Him and cover all the sins that he clearly had no intention of giving up.

I suspect he will be disappointed.

I do not know where this idea came from that you can say "I have faith in Jesus" and yet live like an unregenerate person (gd: I am not for a moment suggesting that you are sinning any more than me or anybody else).

As Paul teaches at several places, it is an act of faith through grace that gives us the Holy Spirit. And what does the Holy Spirit do?

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Yes, Paul assures us that if we confess Jesus and believe that God raised Him, we will be saved (Romans 10). But that does not mean that we can live however we like and still expect heaven. I suggest that you and vj and Panin need to re-examine what it means to “believe†something. If I say that I believe that the earth is round but refuse to get on a ship for fear I will sail over the edge of the earth, do I really believe that the earth is round?

This “bar-code†theology we see in some reformation circles is troubling and unbiblical – the idea that our eternal destiny is determined by a “born-again†event when we are, say, teenagers, and that it really doesn’t matter if we spend the rest of our lives murdering, raping, and pillaging.

How can it be truthfully said that such a person really “believes†that Jesus is Lord.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Do Works Really Save You ... ???

Thus, at final judgment, I PERSONALLY am judged. NOT JESUS Christ. Did I REMAIN in Christ? Were my works with Christ worthy of eternal life? At the final judgment (as Matt 25 points out), it is ME who must love JESUS, hidden in the faces of others. Without my love, without my feeding the hungry, etc., I will NOT be saved for eternal life. Thus, how can you say that works are NOT part of the formula???

I'm perfectly content with the "formula" given us in the Word of God.
I've already entered into eternity. Praise the Lord.

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Those who are born again have their names written in the book of life.

And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

Whoever is born of God has overcome....faith giveth us the victory.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

 

[francisdesales]

Abraham was justified by faith here.
Notice he had no child yet. Also notice he believed and it was counted him for righteousness.
And Abram said, LORD God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? 3And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. 4And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 5And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

What a huge red herring...

What does this have to do with James 2 and Genesis 22 and your "CLAIM" that Abraham was justified in man's eyes???

When people are talking about football, do you suddenly quote Shakespeare???

Stay on subject! Either admit your wrong or defend your position that Abraham was justified "in man's eyes" during the sacrifice of Isaac?

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Again, half truths. You see this because you view the entire Bible through the lenses of "faith vs works". When you BEGIN an approach to Scriptures with that mentality, you will explain away everything that the Bible speaks to the contrary of this "faith vs works" concept of yours.

When you begin an approach to Scriptures with the mentality you need to do something, yourself, to be saved, you deny the words of our Saviour.

Two things.

First, stay on topic. I am addressing your inability to decipher the theme of Romans 1-3, relegating it to some imaginary battle between faith and works!

RIDICULOUS - BOTH COMES FROM GOD!. That is Paul's point here!!! Not that faith and works battle each other, but that BOTH are from God and we need them BOTH...

There is only a battle in the mind of the deluded Christian who has no self worth in his mind because he is a filthy rag, since God "wouldn't dream" of MAKING someone HOLY!!!

Second, having faith IS a "work". John's Gospel calls belief a WORK OF GOD!!!

Paul is not stating that NOTHING we can do is worthy of God... That is a big mistake. He says we cannot EARN it. Huge difference. Read romans 4:4. Grace is not the result of a debt. When we work, we are paid. That is NOT the situation with you and I and God. But it DOES NOT follow that all I do is "filthy rags", as people are BEING SAVED just ONE chapter prior. Go back and read Romans 2. Men are seen just in God's eyes by their actions.

NOW - ask yourself WHY are men just in God's eyes by men's actions in Romans 2???

IS it something they did by themselves, or is it something THEY DID BY the Spirit moving inside, being a Law onto the Gentile???

Scriptures cannot be denied. THEY ATTAIN ETERNAL LIFE BASED ON WHAT THEY DID - IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT. Thus, the bible clearly notes that one MUST work - but it is not THEIR WORK ALONE.

We must love, we must ask forgiveness, we must repent, we must bear other's burdens, etc. We do this because of God - and He makes us righteous.

The point of Romans 1-3 is that man needs God. NOT that man can do NOTHING for salvation, EVEN WITH God's Spirit!!! Romans 2 clearly refutes your position! But all you have on is the "faith vs works" glasses, so you have a veil over your eyes and cannot see what is so plain...

John 5:24"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
True faith is believing Jesus can do this.

"Believing" means more than just a knowledge and acceptance of that fact. Even the devil has such "believeth"... PLEASE.

To believe, to ancient Jews, is to believe it so much that it becomes part of your LIFE, your WALK - WHAT YOU DO!!! Thus, faith and work CANNOT be separated in these passages. One CANNOT believe WITHOUT walking the walk. Otherwise this "believing" is dead. Haven't you read James??? He addresses such libertines with the reality of the situation - such a faith is DEAD.... DEAD cannot save.

Also, you are making a HUGE presumption that you seem unaware of...

Jesus speaks conditionally. He that HEARS - CONTINUES to hear it - and BELIEVES - CONTINUES to believe - shall not come into condemnation. Paul says those in Christ NOW are not in condemnation.

NOW. Those in Christ NOW. Those who hear NOW. Those that believe NOW. Those that walk NOW. We know we have the Spirit WHEN we obey God. We have eternal life - JESUS CHRIST - AS we walk, hear, and believe in God.

Jesus doesn't say "those who BELIEVED (past tense) will have (future) eternal life". It is "those who believe (NOW) will have it NOW, as Christ IS HIMSELF eternal life...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Do Works Really Save You ... ???

I'm perfectly content with the "formula" given us in the Word of God.
I've already entered into eternity. Praise the Lord.

"1 John 5:20"]And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

You twist the meaning again. John calls "eternal life" Jesus Christ HIMSELF. Not a status, not heaven. Eternal life is Jesus, the way, truth and LIFE. As long as we are in Christ, we have eternal life, Jesus Christ. We are in Christ. AS we remain in Christ, we have eternal life. But when we are NOT in Christ, shown by our slavery to sin, return to the vomit, we no longer have Jesus Christ, we no longer have eternal life.

"2 Corinthians 5:17"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

True. That is why my works in Christ are salvific...

Those who are born again have their names written in the book of life.

And those who return to a life of sin have their names removed from the book of life...

"Philippians 4:3"And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

As long as they remain in Christ...

Whoever is born of God has overcome....faith giveth us the victory.

While they remain in Christ...

HE provides our CURRENT victory - manifest by our life of holiness.

Are you going to suggest to me that you have victory over sin while you are enslaved to it, fallen away and living a life of perdition??? :crazy

This is quite simple. Remain in Christ, that is your only chance. Push yourself away from Christ, and all previous righteousness is lost, forgotten. You will NOT enter heaven...

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

Hello gd:

You have claimed that in Romans 2, the judgement that is described only applies to the unregenerate who lived before Jesus.

The text does not say this anywhere and you have been challenged to explain why you think these qualifiers apply.

None of your responses address my questions. You write about how a distinction is being drawn between Jew and Gentile. I am perfectly aware of this, but it does not address my question.

Paul describes a coming judgement at which God will judge "each man" by his work with eternal life in the balance. Now please explain why you think that Paul means that God will judge "each unregenerate man who lived before Christ", given that Paul never, repeat nevers, adds such qualifiers.

Is Paul the author and finisher of your faith?
Paul may not describe it to your satisfaction, but I understand what he's saying quite clearly.
The "books" were opened and all were judged out of them according to their works.
This is not speaking of those written in the Lamb's book. That is a separate book.
We have an advocate with the Father...We do not come under judgment...at all.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And what does it say of those who are written in the book of life?
Jesus will say...these are my beloved...they are washed in my blood and clothed with white raiment.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

There is no judgement for the elect...only rewards.
The unregenerate are JUDGED on their works (out of the "books", the ELECT are rewarded for their works. (as written in the Lamb's book)

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Here's where you see rewards for the elect....

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

[francisdesales]

Is Paul the author and finisher of your faith?
Paul may not describe it to your satisfaction, but I understand what he's saying quite clearly.
The "books" were opened and all were judged out of them according to their works.
This is not speaking of those written in the Lamb's book. That is a separate book.
We have an advocate with the Father...We do not come under judgment...at all.

Wrong answer.

Scriptures clearly speak of ALL men being judged - ascertained to their worthiness of damnation or eternal heaven. You are confusing "judgment" when the Scriptures speak of wrath.

Judgment refers to wrath, also, not just a determination of innocence or guilt. In context, judgment = wrath, those in Christ will NOT suffer. Judgment = decision of worth, ALL will undergo that...

We again refer you to Romans 2 to declare your theology false. To "rewards only" judgment...

revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish. Romans 2:5-8

Or

Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye {wicked} did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal Mat 25:45-46



Note. EVERY man will be weighed on the basis of THEIR DEEDS. You are either a goat or a sheep. Depending upon what you did... nothing about lesser rewards...

Everyone will be weighed and judged. Including you. Not Jesus' deeds. YOURS (in Christ or while not in Christ). No exceptions were made, since God is NOT a respecter of men (according to Paul). Even you will be weighed on the balance of God.

Now, there are two outcomes. Either eternal glory OR eternal death. No statement about lesser rewards. Jesus states the same thing. Either enter the banquet, or sit outside with the wailing and gnashing of teeth...

No rewards for those sitting outside...

Jesus will have never known such people...

 

[glorydaz]

I suggest that the reason for this is that you are insisting on your understanding of what faith is and what it brings about, and ignoring the Biblical definition.
You'd be wrong on that one. I understand faith quite well, and I understand the difference between believing in Jesus and believing Jesus. I believe what He said. Not everyone who claims Him will be claimed by Him. I don't believe, for a minute, that those who say they're His, but continue to walk in sin are born again...no matter what they claim. One who is born again is a new creature. Plain and simple. If they don't have a circumcised heart they are not the Lord's.

I do not know where this idea came from that you can say "I have faith in Jesus" and yet live like an unregenerate person (gd: I am not for a moment suggesting that you are sinning any more than me or anybody else).
It's not my idea....I don't believe that.
It doesn't change the fact that works have no part in our salvation.
Nor does it change the fact that those born again of God can not lose their salvation.
New creature...eternal life...sitting with Christ in the heavenlies.

This “bar-code†theology we see in some reformation circles is troubling and unbiblical – the idea that our eternal destiny is determined by a “born-again†event when we are, say, teenagers, and that it really doesn’t matter if we spend the rest of our lives murdering, raping, and pillaging.

Simply because people don't understand being born again, doesn't negate the truth of it.
A heart once circumcised can not be be uncircumcised. The "operation" never took place.

How can it be truthfully said that such a person really “believes†that Jesus is Lord.

Please don't include me in those who believe in a false doctrine.
I have said, repeatedly, that all who claim to be saved are not.
You can't change the Gospel because some abuse it's teachings.

Create in me a clean heart, Oh God, and renew a right spirit within me.
Once a name has been entered into the book of life, it will not be blotted out.

 

[glorydaz]

Abraham was justified by faith here.
Notice he had no child yet. Also notice he believed and it was counted him for righteousness.
And Abram said, LORD God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? 3And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. 4And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 5And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

What a huge red herring...

What does this have to do with James 2 and Genesis 22 and your "CLAIM" that Abraham was justified in man's eyes???

When people are talking about football, do you suddenly quote Shakespeare???

Stay on subject! Either admit your wrong or defend your position that Abraham was justified "in man's eyes" during the sacrifice of Isaac?

Regards

Because you are unable or unwilling to understand, doesn't make it a red herring.

God looks at the heart...He saw Abrahams faith and it was counted to him as righteousness.
This was before Abraham ever laid Isaac on the altar.

...for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

It's quite obvious here....if works justify, man may glory, but he is not justified before God.

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Who then would he be justified before? Who else is left but man?
Abraham could glory in his works before man. Not God.
This is exactly what James is saying....our works justify us before man...not God.
It's faith that justifies us before God.