SALVATION

[Cornelius]

Re: Another Gospel ....

Those who push their "Can Lose Your Salvation" teaching so strongly are right in league with the major cults!

When you have to add YOUR works for YOUR salvation, you cannot be saved. Simple ... Either it's salvation through Jesus, or salvation only through your works, or salvation through Jesus and you.

Nobody is saying to add works for salvation. The Bible says add works to your FAITH.


Jas 2:22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect;

What "faith" is spoken of here?

Choose one:
1) Faith in God
2) Faith in what God promises.

SO again: Find the difference between Paul's works and James's works and you will know the truth. They are not the same "works"

C

 

[francisdesales]

The "type" {Adam being covered with skins is Jesus covering us of our sins} is only a "type" in the mind of the "Reformer" who has already invented a false gospel. Thus, they look for any thing that "covers" to be a type of Christ. Please. This is eigesis pure and simple.

They covered their naked bodies with skins, not Christ...

Christ doesn't "cover" us. We become PART of Christ, the BODY. You do not know the Scriptures.

The NT states over and over we are part of the BODY OF CHRIST. PARTICIPATE. SYNERGY. NOT "REPLACED", "COVERED". Toss aside like filthy rags...

The good news is not about sadistic people who cannot see they are "IN CHRIST", EVEN AFTER the Spirit comes to them.

Regards

And where does all this hostility come from?
You hurl out accusations of REFORMER like an evil monk from the dark ages.
Would you like me to hurl Catholic curses at you?

I simply won't talk to you if you have to be so nasty.

I don't have any hostility towards you, just your false gospel that pulls people from the Truth. The lengths and depths one must go to - "the animal skins are Christ????" What an amazing reach. Anything that covers something becomes "Christ covering our sins".

Now, the tactic of avoidance has changed. We know you have not addressed many of my questions. I have on a number of occasions bolded, highlighted, made larger than normal print in red pertinent questions - questions that you have chosen to ignore because common sense would dictate leaving aside OSAS. And thus, you must pick one little word "reformer", call it a "nasty accusation", and then proceed to ignore every legitimate argument made. By another name, this is just avoidance.

Do you deny that the Protestant Reformation is the first group to invent such a manner of interpreting Scriptures? Is what I am saying false?

Please point me to where the Church Fathers come up with OSAS...

Thanks,

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

What a huge red herring...

What does this have to do with James 2 and Genesis 22 and your "CLAIM" that Abraham was justified in man's eyes???

When people are talking about football, do you suddenly quote Shakespeare???

Stay on subject! Either admit your wrong or defend your position that Abraham was justified "in man's eyes" during the sacrifice of Isaac?

Regards

Because you are unable or unwilling to understand, doesn't make it a red herring.

God looks at the heart...He saw Abrahams faith and it was counted to him as righteousness.
This was before Abraham ever laid Isaac on the altar.

Your response indicates you have no clue what's going on here...

It is a red herring because your response has nothing to do with Abraham being made just in the sight of men!!!

God declared Abraham just in front of NO MAN. You claim James is speaking about Abraham being made just for the sake of men. That is the "explanation" of James...James refers to Genesis 22 and the sacrifice of Issac. YOUR response is to tell me about Genesis 15???

Well, this is further proof that you are just spouting off nonsense to protect the sacred cow without even putting your mind into gear...

In Genesis 15, which men were the audience for God and Abram's PRIVATE conversation??? Which men were present for the sake of being made just in the eyes of men???

Your desperate responses make things worse for your situation.

This is your contention... That James is speaking about being made just in the eyes of men. However, JAMES uses an example where NO MEN are present. You complain and tell me Abraham was already just - big deal, nothing to do with the topic - and THEN you refer me to ANOTHER incident where there were NO MEN PRESENT and Abraham was JUST!!!

Good job, you've provided the nails for the coffin, yet again...

It appears God is continuing to work through you in ways you least expected...

By your own words, you condemn your understanding of Scriptures and the sacred cow - OSAS...

I suggest you read the Bible, not just verse memorization, but the actual Scriptures within context. You'll understand God's Word much better that way... It is verse memorization that takes Scriptures out of context and invents such silly notions as OSAS - not seeing that OTHER Scriptures wholeheartedly deny it...

Abraham was made just by his faith working in love. His WORKS AND HIS FAITH. IN THE SIGHT OF GOD, WITH NO MEN PRESENT.

WHY ELSE would you think James calls people fools for thinking that faith ALONE saves? Because it doesn't...

All the denying and hand-wringing will not change it. Faith alone is dead.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Once a name has been entered into the book of life, it will not be blotted out.

Erase their names from the Book of Life; don't let them be counted among the righteous. Ps 69:28

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev 3:5

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. Rev 22:19

These seem to suggest otherwise. If you do not overcome, are evil, or "take away part of the Word", God is not bound by the "book of life". He can choose to do whatever He desires, even to those who are wicked and return to the life of vomit they formerly led...

Regards

 

[Drew]

He making it clear that God looks at the heart and all your good works will be judged and found wanting without going on to repentance and sanctification.

No. Paul never says this, at least in the sense you mean. I challenge you to show me any text, - any one at all - which asserts that the person who has the Holy Spirit empowering them cannot do good works.

There are two problems (at least) with your argument:

1. Paul does indeed argue that person without the Spirit can never do enough good works to get to heaven. But, he never, repeat never, say that a person with the Spirit cannot go enough good works to be saved - show me any text you like about how "good works" cannot save, and I will prove that he is talking about the unregenerate;

2. While Paul repeatedly does deny justification by works of the Law of Moses, he never, repeat never, denies justification by good works - in fact he affirms justification by good works in Romans 2.

 

[jasoncran]

drew i think that you and vja4him and others that disagree with you are saying the same thing

one all need the atonement of christ to enter heaven
two that acceptance,and true repentance will produce fruits, ie good works.
three if two never occurs then one never happened.

 

[Drew]

drew i think that you and vja4him and others that disagree with you are saying the same thing

one all need the atonement of christ to enter heaven
two that acceptance,and true repentance will produce fruits, ie good works.
three if two never occurs then one never happened.

Maybe they are saying this. But Paul means what he says in Romans 2 and 2 Corinthians 5.

 

[jasoncran]

i think that you are saying and they are misreading you, i was looking at your posts on paul and thought it makes sense if you put what pauls says with james on "works"

faith without works is dead and works without faith wont get you to heaven.

 

[glorydaz]

I don't have any hostility towards you, just your false gospel that pulls people from the Truth. The lengths and depths one must go to - "the animal skins are Christ????" What an amazing reach. Anything that covers something becomes "Christ covering our sins".



Now, the tactic of avoidance has changed. We know you have not addressed many of my questions. I have on a number of occasions bolded, highlighted, made larger than normal print in red pertinent questions - questions that you have chosen to ignore because common sense would dictate leaving aside OSAS. And thus, you must pick one little word "reformer", call it a "nasty accusation", and then proceed to ignore every legitimate argument made. By another name, this is just avoidance.

Do you deny that the Protestant Reformation is the first group to invent such a manner of interpreting Scriptures? Is what I am saying false?

Please point me to where the Church Fathers come up with OSAS...

Thanks,

Regards

Sometimes I don't answer because I'm at a loss for words.
You are so agressive in your posts that I'm taken aback, and don't even know where to begin.
Let's call it your hostility toward my "false gospel" then...I'll try to remember that in the future, but it's hardly a "tactic" to speak one's beliefs.

I have to admit, I am saddened by your misunderstanding of our Lord's work on the cross.
I'm also a little surprised at your twisting my beliefs about humility, charging I'm making men look like a pile of manure. Jesus came to serve...not glorify Himself. I don't call that a bad thing. If we are to humble ourselves in the sight of the Lord, we are only doing what we're called to do. We aren't to attempt to become like God in power, but like God in humility. I admit that in myself dwells no good thing, and it's only as I allow the Lord to work through me that my deeds are righteous. For some odd reason you see that as a horrible attitude to have. I say you're wrong. When you claim "your works" are righteous then you have just stolen the glory that is God's alone.


And for you to mock that animal skins are a sign of Christ's covering our sins, then you mock every type given in the OT. Blood was shed to get those skins. You think God just created the skins to cover them with...not shedding blood to do it?

Yes, I say what you're saying is false. I go back to the original church fathers...the apostles and the teaching of Jesus. What the church did after that I will not take on as gospel. So Reformation has no place in how I view the teaching given us in the Word.

You've been given a mountain of scripture already to point you to the believer's securtiy in their salvation. You reject it. Your unbelief in the work of the cross is a denial of Jesus. A person is saved by His work, alone, and those who are His will never be lost. You may not recall admitting as much...you, instead, decided to focus on man not knowing who is really saved. Well, I don't know if you're really saved, or my neighbor is really saved, but I do know I am. Jesus in the Spirit is living in me...He has promised to never leave nor forsake me. I believe Him rather than those who say He lies when He says that. You claim I might leave Him. How can I leave Him when He dwells in me? I don't have the power to evict God.

 

[glorydaz]

Your response indicates you have no clue what's going on here...

It is a red herring because your response has nothing to do with Abraham being made just in the sight of men!!!

God declared Abraham just in front of NO MAN. You claim James is speaking about Abraham being made just for the sake of men. That is the "explanation" of James...James refers to Genesis 22 and the sacrifice of Issac. YOUR response is to tell me about Genesis 15???

Well, this is further proof that you are just spouting off nonsense to protect the sacred cow without even putting your mind into gear...

In Genesis 15, which men were the audience for God and Abram's PRIVATE conversation??? Which men were present for the sake of being made just in the eyes of men???

Your desperate responses make things worse for your situation.

This is your contention... That James is speaking about being made just in the eyes of men. However, JAMES uses an example where NO MEN are present. You complain and tell me Abraham was already just - big deal, nothing to do with the topic - and THEN you refer me to ANOTHER incident where there were NO MEN PRESENT and Abraham was JUST!!!

Good job, you've provided the nails for the coffin, yet again...

It appears God is continuing to work through you in ways you least expected...

By your own words, you condemn your understanding of Scriptures and the sacred cow - OSAS...

I suggest you read the Bible, not just verse memorization, but the actual Scriptures within context. You'll understand God's Word much better that way... It is verse memorization that takes Scriptures out of context and invents such silly notions as OSAS - not seeing that OTHER Scriptures wholeheartedly deny it...

Abraham was made just by his faith working in love. His WORKS AND HIS FAITH. IN THE SIGHT OF GOD, WITH NO MEN PRESENT.

WHY ELSE would you think James calls people fools for thinking that faith ALONE saves? Because it doesn't...

All the denying and hand-wringing will not change it. Faith alone is dead.

Regards

Can you even carry on a conversation without accusing me of "spouting nonsense"?

You seem to claim that our work of God and our works are the same.
Jesus says quite clearly that our "work" is to believe in Him.
That would be the only work that justifies us before God.
The only work required in order to be saved is to believe.

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Here Jesus is telling the doubters that if they can't believe Him to at least believe the WORKS He has done. Do you see that? Those WORKS he has done justify Him before men...certainly not before God.
The "works" we do are something men can look at (or hear about...in the case of Abraham lifting the knife). They are visible...seen of men.

But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Here we see, quite plainly, that the man who does no works, but believes, it's his faith alone (his WORK of God....NOT "works", that is counted for righteousness.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Here again..man is not justified by works of the law (be they stone or natural ie. Rom. 1 and 2), but by faith in Christ.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

So, to use your own words..."Engage you brain" and perhaps you'll see I'm not spouting nonsense at all, but the Word of God. It's quite clear, but it does require some spiritual discernment in order to see.

 

[francisdesales]

Sometimes I don't answer because I'm at a loss for words.
You are so agressive in your posts that I'm taken aback, and don't even know where to begin.
Let's call it your hostility toward my "false gospel" then...I'll try to remember that in the future, but it's hardly a "tactic" to speak one's beliefs.

Very well, point taken, I'll try to tone it down a bit. I have invested a lot of time on this thread, and it is frustrating getting nowhere because of what I see, from my point of view, right or wrong, a concerted effort to avoid answering key points of posts I make... It seems to me that you would prefer not to speak about 2 Peter 2, but would rather change the subject and bounce around so there cannot be a moment where it begins to sink in...

I have to admit, I am saddened by your misunderstanding of our Lord's work on the cross.

Christ died for ALL men. That work is given to men conditionally. All men's sins were not forgiven at the foot of the cross - when Jesus gave the apostles authority to forgive sins AFTER the resurrection, this clearly means all men's sins are not yet forgiven...

Christ's work is available to all, but it is applied conditionally, whether upon our initial justification, or when we need future sanctification or forgiveness. There is not a sense that all is done in the work of sanctification. We are BEING made holy, which is done by having Christ's salvific work applied to me TODAY. Thus, your understanding appears to be a simplification of the truth. Christ's work is NOT done, He STILL is working - through the Church - to call men to God and sanctify them...

I'm also a little surprised at your twisting my beliefs about humility, charging I'm making men look like a pile of manure.

You keep citing "filthy rags", from that your doctrine flows. Whether you realize it or not, if this is the mindset, you will not be able to clearly understand that Christ WANTS us to become like Him - WITH Him. The "filthy rags" is not applied to those in the Spirit. Works are not filthy rags when done in Christ. Thus, works of faith and love are a wonderful thing in the sight of God.

Jesus came to serve...not glorify Himself. I don't call that a bad thing.

Me neither. But let's balance the picture. God also glorifies men, making them little less than gods. The very POINT of His coming in the flesh was to bring US to become more like HIM.

If we are to humble ourselves in the sight of the Lord, we are only doing what we're called to do. We aren't to attempt to become like God in power, but like God in humility.

See my signature. There is no need to nullify our working in Christ or 'give God all the credit'. My righteousness relies entirely upon God - but it is MY righteousness while I am in Christ...

I am sharing in the divine nature. Even now. There is no need for false pious thoughts that, while holding up God's sovereignty, deny that very same Sovereign's RIGHT to empower us to BE righteous.

I admit that in myself dwells no good thing

here, you and the Bible disagree... The good that is in us is UNITED to us... Christ is not some virus, some external "parasite". Christ becomes PART of us in mysterious union. When Paul was struck blind by the power of the Lord, what did Jesus say to Paul?

"Why are you persecuting ME"... ME. Reflect on that unity, glorydaz. We are UNITED to Christ, and NOTHING external shall separate us from that love.

and it's only as I allow the Lord to work through me that my deeds are righteous.

Yes, and YOUR deeds ARE righteous. They are yours - and these deeds are what God looks at when we are judged, on OUR deeds, not the deeds of Jesus Christ. Jesus is not judged.

For some odd reason you see that as a horrible attitude to have. I say you're wrong. When you claim "your works" are righteous then you have just stolen the glory that is God's alone.

I have stolen NOTHING, because - and this is the frustrating part - I have told you numerous times that the Bible speaks of SYNERGY. God allows us to participate in all of His work. WE spread the Gospel, reach out and feed and clothe the hungry, visit the poor and sick. WE do this in Christ. But suddenly, when I do it, I am a zoombie and God does it while I just watch in a coma or something. I always have free will to KEEP the Lord from working good within me - because He has chosen that we REMAIN in His image - to freely choose to love.

My signature explains that there is no 'glory-stealing' going on... Quite the opposite, because we accept what God has done, you deny what God desires to do to maintain this sense of sovereignty...

But this forgets the role of a sovereign. A Sovereign serves others for the sake of His people. A king uses His power to benefit His beloved people. He saves them from trouble and tribulations. He defends them. A king, a sovereign king, doesn't need to "LORD IT OVER OTHERS" to ensure He is given ALL the glory!!!

Christ came to serve, not to ensure He gets all the credit... As my King, He is my defender, my savior. He helps me in times of difficulty and trials. But it is not necessary that He "does it all". There is no such understanding of being kingly or sovereign...

And for you to mock that animal skins are a sign of Christ's covering our sins, then you mock every type given in the OT. Blood was shed to get those skins. You think God just created the skins to cover them with...not shedding blood to do it?

Very well, I see the point. But nakedness is not evil, God created us that way, so the application is only superficial.

Yes, I say what you're saying is false. I go back to the original church fathers...the apostles and the teaching of Jesus. What the church did after that I will not take on as gospel. So Reformation has no place in how I view the teaching given us in the Word.

It is quite unlikely that you came up with this without reference to the teachings of the Protestant Reformation. Whether you know Luther or not, he is your spiritual father, since it is through his interpretations that you understand Scriptures.

You've been given a mountain of scripture already to point you to the believer's securtiy in their salvation. You reject it.

I reject YOUR understanding. I have already told you time and time again that I have security TODAY. AS I walk in the Lord. I don't have security in the far future because the Bible doesn't give it. Nor does reality or common sense and experience. AS I WALK IN THE SPIRIT, I know I am saved. There is no "mountain" that tells us that we cannot fall away in the future. There is a number of Scriptures that point to the possibility of falling away from God, even AFTER receiving salvation. YOU are the one rejecting the Scriptures here.

Your unbelief in the work of the cross is a denial of Jesus.

Have you actually sat down and thought about that, or do you just mimic like a parrot???

Do you think Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin are in heaven? Judas Iscariot??? Countless other evil people are in hell, no doubt. Now, if the work of Christ was unconditionally applied, regardless of ANYTHING we do, then you are saying that these people all are sitting at the Banquet Feast with Christ.

I think you should re-appraise your theology here. Follow its logical conclusions.

Sure, as a cliche, it sounds lovely and holy, but in reality, it is not Christian...

We are called to DO something BEFORE we receive the value of Christs' Work. repent. Believe. Walk in faith. Love others. Avoid sin. Etc...

A person is saved by His work, alone, and those who are His will never be lost.

So God randomly picks and chooses absolutely those who go to heaven and hell? So God eternally predestines people to hell, no matter how good that person tries to be???

And "this God" is "just"????? A person has absolutely no choice but eternal hell???

Again, I fear you are just repeating the party line without actually thinking about what you are saying...

I fear you do not have the correct understanding of God as a loving God, Love ITSELF...

Regards

 

[shad]

i think that you are saying and they are misreading you, i was looking at your posts on paul and thought it makes sense if you put what pauls says with james on "works"

faith without works is dead and works without faith wont get you to heaven.

We cannot miss either. You need both: being obedient to Jesus (work) and having faith in Him. If we have faith in Him we will not disregard or dishonor Jesus' commandments. We won't say "we cannot be saved by our works".

.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Another Gospel ....

Those who push their "Can Lose Your Salvation" teaching so strongly are right in league with the major cults!

When you have to add YOUR works for YOUR salvation, you cannot be saved. Simple ... Either it's salvation through Jesus, or salvation only through your works, or salvation through Jesus and you.

Nobody is saying to add works for salvation. The Bible says add works to your FAITH.


Jas 2:22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect;

What "faith" is spoken of here?

Choose one:
1) Faith in God
2) Faith in what God promises.

SO again: Find the difference between Paul's works and James's works and you will know the truth. They are not the same "works"

C

So how is faith made perfect? It's expressed...either by confessing with the mouth or reaching out to touch the hem of His garment. A faith that is dead would better be interpreted as "idle", waiting for that step of faith we speak of all the time. It isn't true faith until it's expressed. So James seems to be speaking the same thing Paul does, except Paul refers to the seed and James refers to the tree. We're seeing the outworking of the belief. Prove your faith by word or deed. Until we take that step, our faith is still idling...waiting expression. It gets back to a false faith and belief or the real deal. In order to really believe we have to take that first step out across the water...otherwise it isn't really faith at all.

And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

 

[francisdesales]

Can you even carry on a conversation without accusing me of "spouting nonsense"?

You seem to claim that our work of God and our works are the same.
Jesus says quite clearly that our "work" is to believe in Him.
That would be the only work that justifies us before God.

Go back and read James again. It says faith alone DOES NOT save us.

And don't bother with the "justified before man" stuff. I clearly have refuted that. That is not what James is talking about, clearly expressed by his choice of example...

The WORK that Jesus spoke of - faith in God - does NOT EXCLUDE our works of love. Have you actually read the Gospels, beginning to end? How can anyone get the idea that Jesus does NOT want us to "DO" things, just have "faith"? Oh, we see the same COUPLE passages, twisted out of context, but what about the entire rest of what He says?

The only work required in order to be saved is to believe.
"John 6:29"]Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So from Jesus words, you INVENT and INTERJECT the word ONLY!!!

Can't you see you are changing Scriptures to fit your theology???

Jesus does NOT nor ever IMPLIES that the ONLY thing we are to do is have faith in God... He VERY STRONLGY states that we are ALSO to OBEY HIS WILL!!!

Obedience requires "work", human action... There is no way around this. I ask you - look more carefully at your statement and ask yourself - "is it necessary that i add 'only' to Jesus statement"? Does the rest of Matthew and Luke tell me I am NOT to "work"? that humans are NOT to "do" things???

Here Jesus is telling the doubters that if they can't believe Him to at least believe the WORKS He has done. Do you see that?

For entirely different reasons than you see.

Jesus is offering evidence of his teachings... HOW could his teachings be from God, truth, IF Jesus was doing such miraculous actions? The Sanheddrin asked that same question while debating on what to do with Jesus. Jesus WORKS were evidence that God approved of Jesus remarkable teachings... If God disagreed with Jesus, the works would not have happened... The WORKS are vindication of the truth of Jesus teachings, ESP the work of the Resurrection...

you are trying to relate "works of Jesus" to something that saves us here... that is out of context.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Here again..man is not justified by works of the law (be they stone or natural ie. Rom. 1 and 2), but by faith in Christ.

This is not even the primary theme of Romans... AGAIN, I say...

I have already explained that, but you flat out ignored that, as well... How can you deny that people were justified in Romans 2??? Have you even READ Romans 2???

So, to use your own words..."Engage you brain" and perhaps you'll see I'm not spouting nonsense at all, but the Word of God. It's quite clear, but it does require some spiritual discernment in order to see.

yea, it does... I think I have defended my point of view - but you just avoid the issues...How many times have I spoken about Romans 2 - and you continue your false interpretation like I said absolutely nothing... Even if you choose not to engage my arguments, others will see your refusal for what it is...

Fear of the Truth.

 

[Drew]

In Romans 8, Paul writes this:

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Why is there no condemnation, that is why can those “in Christ Jesus†expect eternal life? Paul goes on immediately to tell us why. Note all the “forâ€s here – they serve the same function here as the word “becauseâ€:

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Why is there no condemnation?†Because (for) we have been set free from slavery to sin so that……what?

......so that we can walk according to the Spirit – do good works as the Spirit enables us.

That is why there is no condemnation – we are enabled to walk according to the Spirit. Notice that Paul did not say “there is no condemnation because you have mentally assented to the proposition that Jesus is Lord and has died for your sinsâ€.

What Paul says here is precisely what we need to know to make sense of what he has said in Romans 2, where he said, clearly, that eternal life goes to those who do good.

glorydaz, you are correct to wonder, as you read Romans 2, how Paul can mean that people get eternal life based on works when, as per Romans 3, Paul points out the hopeless state of unregenerate man. But where you err is in assuming that Paul does not really mean he says in Romans 2, rather than waiting for the explanation in Romans 8, where it becomes clear that Jesus’ work results in the Spirit, which enables us to the good works we need as per Romans 2.

 

[glorydaz]

Once a name has been entered into the book of life, it will not be blotted out.

Erase their names from the Book of Life; don't let them be counted among the righteous. Ps 69:28

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev 3:5

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. Rev 22:19

These seem to suggest otherwise. If you do not overcome, are evil, or "take away part of the Word", God is not bound by the "book of life". He can choose to do whatever He desires, even to those who are wicked and return to the life of vomit they formerly led...

Regards

Nice try, but your argument falls far short of the mark.
I'm not sure what version of the Bible you're using, but it isn't correct.

David is calling down God's judgment against the unbelieving nation of Israel.
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living.. let them not be written with the righteous...that's a far cry from being written in the Lamb's book of Life, and then blotted out.
As here...

And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them. Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents. For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. But I am poor and sorrowful: let thy salvation, O God, set me up on high.

As far as your other examples...they don't work for you, either. We have overcome the world already because Jesus overcame. I've given scripture for that if you'd care to see them again...just ask.

And...I'm sure not taking away or adding anything to the Bible or the Book of Revelation.

 

[glorydaz]

He making it clear that God looks at the heart and all your good works will be judged and found wanting without going on to repentance and sanctification.

No. Paul never says this, at least in the sense you mean. I challenge you to show me any text, - any one at all - which asserts that the person who has the Holy Spirit empowering them cannot do good works.

There are two problems (at least) with your argument:

1. Paul does indeed argue that person without the Spirit can never do enough good works to get to heaven. But, he never, repeat never, say that a person with the Spirit cannot go enough good works to be saved - show me any text you like about how "good works" cannot save, and I will prove that he is talking about the unregenerate;

2. While Paul repeatedly does deny justification by works of the Law of Moses, he never, repeat never, denies justification by good works - in fact he affirms justification by good works in Romans 2.

Honestly, Drew. I don't know where you get such ideas. I never said someone with the Holy Spirit won't do good deeds. It's the Spirit that enables them to do them. The good works we do, though, apart from believing..do not earn us salvation. If you think I was saying what you claim, then I'll just have to say you've misunderstood what I was saying. :biglaugh We obviously have a communication gap. I have never said a born again Christian can not do good works. It's called the fruit of the Spirit. If we do works that aren't in obedience to the Spirit's leading, then they aren't as good as we think they are, because we're to walk in obedience to the Spririt's leading...not go off on our own. So please, don't be saying I'm saying something I'm not. You're simply mistaken. ;)

The justification by good works Paul is talking about in Romans 2, however, is not referring to the saved person, but to the person who seeks after righteousness without having gone on to atonement...hence the call to repentance just prior. It's a step in the Roman Road. IMMHO

 

[Drew]

Honestly, Drew. I don't know where you get such ideas. I never said someone with the Holy Spirit won't do good deeds.

Fair enough - I was not sufficiently careful and I will reword: "Gd: Paul nowhere, repreat nowhere, says that our good works, inspired by the Spirit, are not "good enough" to earn salvation."

I challenge you to find any text that suggest that redeemed man cannot manifest "good works" that are "good enough" to attain salvation.

I can predict what is going to happen - you will produce texts that seem to support your position, but you will fail to account for the fact that the writer is specifically talking about the unregenerate person.

 

[Drew]

The justification by good works Paul is talking about in Romans 2, however, is not referring to the saved person, but to the person who seeks after righteousness without having gone on to atonement...hence the call to repentance just prior. It's a step in the Roman Road. IMMHO

The fudamental problem with your position is this: Paul never says anything to the effect that the Romans 2 judgement is not for everyone - you read such a qualifier in, based on a belief that other texts, such as those in Romans 3, show that no one can be justified by their good works. The problem is that Paul never, ever, ever, ever denies that people cannot be justified by their works - he denies that they cannot be justified by doing the works of Torah. Hence my Ephesian 2 argument, which I should repost.

And, as I have just shown from Romans 8, Paul tells us why we are not subject to condemnation - because we are enabled to walk according to the Spirit.

Gd: this idea that Paul does not mean what he says in Romans 2 because the Romans 2 material is "part of a bigger explanation" requires that you actually make a case about how that bigger picture legitimately allow us to see "salvation by good works" in Romans 2 as a purely hypothetical possibilty.

Do you believe you have made such a case. Why, specifically, do you think people cannot be saved by "good works". Before you reply, consider the possibility that texts that you think deny the possibility of salvation by good works are really denying salvation by doing the works of Torah.

 

[glorydaz]

i think that you are saying and they are misreading you, i was looking at your posts on paul and thought it makes sense if you put what pauls says with james on "works"

faith without works is dead and works without faith wont get you to heaven.

The work we're to do is believe. That requires the first step. The one necessary for salvation.

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

If we don't truly believe...our faith is dead (we're still standing in the boat).
So, out of necessity, we must take that first step out onto the rolling sea.

Is our continuing to walk across the water without sinking when we take our eyes off Jesus a necessary part of salvation, or does the step we take qualify? Our work is to believe...our works after believing are not what saves us. Believing enough to take the step is what justifies us before God. Our continuing to cross stormy seas is what men see...those works are what proves to man we are indeed saved. God knows we are because He saw us take our first step...that justifies our faith unto God. Our walk after that is not a part of our salvation. Which is why we're justified by our faith...it's got to be the true faith that prompts us to confess Jesus, touch the hem of His garment....

And, when Peter started to sink, what did the Lord do?
Let him sink? Nope. But you can be assured...Peter's little faith increased that very day.

And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water. 29And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. 30But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. 31And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?