salvation

[dirtfarmer]

No. The know that it is an absolute and undeniable fact that Jesus is the Son of God. That's what they said.

They said they knew he was the son of God in the scriptures I posted for you.

What does the part in bold type have to do with Hebrews 2:9???

My point, which you have navigated all around without bumping into, if that belief alone and without the works based on that belief, WILL NOT SAVE anyone.
As you pointed out, "the devils also believe, and tremble." The demons believe and tremble because they have the good sense to believe that they will be punished for not submitting to the will of the LORD whom they know is the Son of God. There are many professed Christians who need to get that smart and embark on the path of the pursuit of holiness.
Jas 2:14 (NKJV) What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
Answer: NO.
Jas 2:24(NKJV) You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Hebrews 11 describes how the saints believed and did something based on their belief.
Hebrew's agrees with James when he said that faith without works is dead. (2:17)

iakov the fool

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

You make the statement " If that belief alone and without works based on the belief, will not save anyone." What is the works based on that belief that brings salvation? keeping the law, feeding the hungry. Please give scripture to establish your belief.

 

[Jim Parker]

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here
You make the statement " If that belief alone and without works based on the belief, will not save anyone." What is the works based on that belief that brings salvation? keeping the law, feeding the hungry. Please give scripture to establish your belief.

I didn't make that statement. James did. It's in your Bible.
He also gives examples of the kind of works that render faith salvific.
James 2:14-17 (RSV) What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

Jesus said: "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." (John 13:34-35 RSV)

Jesus also told us: "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven." (Mat 5:16 RSV)

and "Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you." (Mat 5:42 RSV)

and "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven;" (Mat 5:44-45 RSV)

So, if Jesus is your LORD the do the things your LORD has told you to do or quit pretending that he is your LORD.

Imitate God. He is merciful so we also, if we are sons of God, should be merciful as our Father is merciful.

According to Jesus, He will determine your eternal habitation depending on whether you were merciful or not. Those who were merciful inherit the kingdom; those who were not are sent to hell. (Mat 25:31-46)

Jesus said, " Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful." (Luk 6:36 RSV)
Is Jesus your LORD? Yes?
Do you believe what He said?
Yes? Good! Then do what He says.


iakov the fool

 

[dirtfarmer]

I didn't make that statement. James did. It's in your Bible.
He also gives examples of the kind of works that render faith salvific.
James 2:14-17 (RSV) What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

Jesus said: "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." (John 13:34-35 RSV)

Jesus also told us: "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven." (Mat 5:16 RSV)

and "Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you." (Mat 5:42 RSV)

and "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven;" (Mat 5:44-45 RSV)

So, if Jesus is your LORD the do the things your LORD has told you to do or quit pretending that he is your LORD.

Imitate God. He is merciful so we also, if we are sons of God, should be merciful as our Father is merciful.

According to Jesus, He will determine your eternal habitation depending on whether you were merciful or not. Those who were merciful inherit the kingdom; those who were not are sent to hell. (Mat 25:31-46)

Jesus said, " Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful." (Luk 6:36 RSV)
Is Jesus your LORD? Yes?
Do you believe what He said?
Yes? Good! Then do what He says.


iakov the fool

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

John 6:28-29 " Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Then in verse 35 Jesus said: " I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." Where is the faith plus works for salvation?

Do you understand what Paul said in Ephesians 2:10 " For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
"We are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works". Were we created in Christ to do good works for salvation? No
" Which God hath ordained that we should walk in them". What is it that God has ordained? That we should walk in those works created in Christ Jesus, not in our works.

According to John the work that God has ordained is to believe on Jesus Christ, not feed the hungry, cast out demons, or heal the sick. Those are works that Christ will accomplish through us when we believe on him. They are his works not ours. We are saved by faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of him, not by the works that he accomplishes through us as believers.

 

[Jim Parker]

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

John 6:28-29 " Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Then in verse 35 Jesus said: " I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." Where is the faith plus works for salvation?

Do you understand what Paul said in Ephesians 2:10 " For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
"We are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works". Were we created in Christ to do good works for salvation? No
" Which God hath ordained that we should walk in them". What is it that God has ordained? That we should walk in those works created in Christ Jesus, not in our works.

According to John the work that God has ordained is to believe on Jesus Christ, not feed the hungry, cast out demons, or heal the sick. Those are works that Christ will accomplish through us when we believe on him. They are his works not ours. We are saved by faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of him, not by the works that he accomplishes through us as believers.

What you consistently seem unable to understand is that the Bible says ALL of the things you posted AND ALL of the things I posted for you.
You don't get to pick and choose.
The scriptures that you posted do not make the ones I posted for you null and void.

According to Jesus, if you fail to show mercy He will send you to hell.
Mat 25:41-46a (KJV)
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat:
I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in:
naked, and ye clothed me not:
sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:

(Edited by staff)

 

[Jim Parker]

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

John 6:28-29 " Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Then in verse 35 Jesus said: " I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." Where is the faith plus works for salvation?

Do you understand what Paul said in Ephesians 2:10 " For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
"We are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works". Were we created in Christ to do good works for salvation? No
" Which God hath ordained that we should walk in them". What is it that God has ordained? That we should walk in those works created in Christ Jesus, not in our works.

According to John the work that God has ordained is to believe on Jesus Christ, not feed the hungry, cast out demons, or heal the sick. Those are works that Christ will accomplish through us when we believe on him. They are his works not ours. We are saved by faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of him, not by the works that he accomplishes through us as believers.

You avoided responding to what I posted.
The essence of my post was; if Jesus is your LORD then it requires you to do as He commands. (And I provided a few of His commands as examples.)
If one "believes" but does not obey His commands and does not do the things that He tells us we are to do, then that failure to comply with His commands is prima facie evidence that Jesus is, in fact, NOT the Lord of the person who does not obey.

Do you agree with my assessment of not?
If not, why not?

iakov the fool

 

[dirtfarmer]

You avoided responding to what I posted.
The essence of my post was; if Jesus is your LORD then it requires you to do as He commands. (And I provided a few of His commands as examples.)
If one "believes" but does not obey His commands and does not do the things that He tells us we are to do, then that failure to comply with His commands is prima facie evidence that Jesus is, in fact, NOT the Lord of the person who does not obey.

Do you agree with my assessment of not?
If not, why not?

iakov the fool

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

Your beliefs are, or it seems to be, based on those teachings of Jesus to the Jewish people about the earthly kingdom that will be established after the marriage of the bride of Christ( the Church) to him in heaven.

You should stop beating your head against that brick wall . You will do your self great harm.

 

[Douglas Summers]

dirtfarmer here

In salvation, Is it enough to believe that Jesus is God's Son? or is it possible to believe that Jesus Is the Son of God and still not have salvation?

A man must repent! Judas knew who the Christ was but trampled Him underfoot. So did many of the religious leaders and teachers of Israel, and they killed Him. Just take a look at the religious world who claim Christ. Many are hell bound!

 

[OzSpen]

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

Your beliefs are, or it seems to be, based on those teachings of Jesus to the Jewish people about the earthly kingdom that will be established after the marriage of the bride of Christ( the Church) to him in heaven.

You should stop beating your head against that brick wall . You will do your self great harm.

From where in the Book of James did you get that idea. Jim has been confirming what James 2 (ESV) teaches. Now you want it to apply only to ' the Jewish people about the earthly kingdom that will be established after the marriage of the bride of Christ ( the Church) to him in heaven'.

Where is that stated in James 2 (ESV)?

Oz

 

[dirtfarmer]

From where in the Book of James did you get that idea. Jim has been confirming what James 2 (ESV) teaches. Now you want it to apply only to ' the Jewish people about the earthly kingdom that will be established after the marriage of the bride of Christ ( the Church) to him in heaven'.

Where is that stated in James 2 (ESV)?

Oz

hello OzSpen, dirtfarmer here

James 1:1 " James a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."

 

[chessman]

He also gives examples of the kind of works that render faith salvific.

James gives numerous examples of the kind of faith that renders works, not the kind of works that renders salvific faith.

James 2:14, 17 (LEB) What is the benefit, my brothers, if someone says that he has faith but does not have works? ... That faith is not able to save him, is it? ... Thus also faith, if it does not have works, is dead by itself.​

James is clearly saying; The kind of faith that does not have works is not salvific faith.
Which is quite different than James saying the kind of works that saves renders faith. As someone else once said; there are those who merely are "pretending".

For a Scripture that teaches us the kind of Works that saves us, see Jesus' teaching:

John 6:29 (LEB) Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you believe in the one whom that one sent.”​

So, if Jesus is your LORD the do the things your LORD has told you to do or quit pretending that he is your LORD.

Ah, so you agree that there are those who merely pretend to call Jesus Lord. Those who merely pretend Jesus is Lord are not saved. Never were. On the other hand, God's work is not a pretending work.

According to Jesus, He will determine your eternal habitation depending on whether you were merciful or not. Those who were merciful inherit the kingdom; those who were not are sent to hell. (Mat 25:31-46)

According to Jesus, He will separate all the goats of the nations on the left from all the sheep of the nations on the right based on whether they are accursed or righteous. Are you suggesting that goats become righteous based on their own righteous works or God's Work?

Matthew 25:34 (LEB) Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world!​

Notice who blessed them (the Father) and when (well before any of their works occurs). It seems odd to me (and not supported Scripturally) that goats become sheep via their works, versus God's work. Even Atheist give to the poor.

Notice also that neither the goats nor the sheep knew when they had given anything to eat or drink to Jesus.

Matthew 25:37 (LEB) Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?​

BTW, this passage doesn't say anything about "your eternal habitation" for the accursed in the "eternal fire". Not to mention it's talking about those accursed(on the left), not the blessed by the Father from the foundation of the world. You added that idea to the Text, and potentially applied it to those on the right versus what it says (those accursed on the left). And it's quite contrary to what Scripture actually does say:

Isaiah 33:12-14 (LEB) And the peoples will be burning to lime— they are burned like thorns that have been cut down in the fire. You who are far away, hear what I have done; and you who are near, know my might!” Sinners are afraid in Zion; trembling has seized the godless: “Who of us can live with devouring fire? Who of us can live with everlasting consuming hearths?” ​

God's wrath is a consuming fire for the godless sinners (goats) of the world.

Hebrews 12:29 (LEB) For indeed our God is a consuming fire.
​

 

[OzSpen]

hello OzSpen, dirtfarmer here

James 1:1 " James a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."

dirtfarmer,

The 'twelve tribes ... scattered' were the original audience. Are you daring to say that every verse of the Book of James only applies to the Jews?

Does this verse apply only to the Jewish Christians and not to Gentile Christians?

'Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything (James 1:2-4 NIV).​

If I accept your view, then the Book of Colossians was only for the Colossian church and it's a waste of time being in the Bible because it doesn't apply to all Christians since it was written by Paul to only one church at Colossae. It shouldn't be in the canon of Scripture to be used by all Christians and to apply to their lives. Is that your view for Colossians and James?

Seems to me that your bibliology needs some surgery and your interpretive framework needs rehabilitation.

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

Your beliefs are, or it seems to be, based on those teachings of Jesus to the Jewish people about the earthly kingdom that will be established after the marriage of the bride of Christ( the Church) to him in heaven.

What kind of church do you attend that teaches that.....stuff?

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer,

The 'twelve tribes ... scattered' were the original audience. Are you daring to say that every verse of the Book of James only applies to the Jews?

Does this verse apply only to the Jewish Christians and not to Gentile Christians?

'Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything (James 1:2-4 NIV).​

If I accept your view, then the Book of Colossians was only for the Colossian church and it's a waste of time being in the Bible because it doesn't apply to all Christians since it was written by Paul to only one church at Colossae. It shouldn't be in the canon of Scripture to be used by all Christians and to apply to their lives. Is that your view for Colossians and James?

Seems to me that your bibliology needs some surgery and your interpretive framework needs rehabilitation.

Oz

hello OzSpen, dirtfarmer here

What I am saying is that you can't find church doctrine in James.

 

[dirtfarmer]

What kind of church do you attend that teaches that.....stuff?

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

I get my beliefs from studying scripture, comparing scripture with scripture. If your beliefs are based on what you have been taught by a church, then your beliefs are based on man-made doctrine.

 

[OzSpen]

hello OzSpen, dirtfarmer here

What I am saying is that you can't find church doctrine in James.

dirtfarmer,

That is false. I'm preaching my way through the Book of James (I'm an expository preacher) and there is a stack of doctrine in James. These are but a few examples.

1. The reason for trials in the Christian life - the testing of your faith (James 1:2-18 ESV);
2. Those who hear the word must be doers of it (James 1:19-27 ESV);
3. How to get 'pure religion' (Jas 1:26-27);
4. Partiality (favouritism) is a sin (James 2:1-13).
5. Learning to tame the anger of the tongue (James 3:1-12);
6. The doctrine of worldliness (James 4:1-12)
   
7. Etc.

What could be a greater doctrine than the prayer of faith? (James 5:13-20). There is a drove of doctrine in the Book of James.

What is doctrine? Bible Study Tools provides this definition of 'doctrine':

Doctrine

(Gk. didaskalia [didaskaliva]). Act of teaching or that which is taught. The use of the term in Scripture, however, is broader than a simple reference to information passed on from one person to another or from one generation to the next. Christianity is a religion founded on a message of good news rooted in the significance of the life of Jesus Christ. In Scripture, then, doctrine refers to the entire body of essential theological truths that define and describe that message ( 1 Tim 1:10 ; 4:16 ; 6:3 ; Titus 1:9 ). The message includes historical facts, such as those regarding the events of the life of Jesus Christ ( 1 Cor 11:23 ). But it is deeper than biographical facts alone. As J. Gresham Machen pointed out years ago, Jesus' death is an integral historical fact but it is not doctrine. Jesus' death for sins ( 1 Cor 15:3 ) is doctrine. Doctrine, then, is scriptural teaching on theological truths.​

I don't know what causes you to exclude the doctrines of James from the definition of doctrine. Could there be a blind spot there?

Oz

 

[Douglas Summers]

What you consistently seem unable to understand is that the Bible says ALL of the things you posted AND ALL of the things I posted for you.
You don't get to pick and choose.
The scriptures that you posted do not make the ones I posted for you null and void.

According to Jesus, if you fail to show mercy He will send you to hell.
Mat 25:41-46a (KJV)
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat:
I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in:
naked, and ye clothed me not:
sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:

(Edited by staff)

It is true that those who show no mercy will receive no mercy, But Matthew Chapter 25 is about the 7 years of Jacob's Trouble upon the earth when the 144,000 anointed Jews preach the Gospel. (Revelation Chapter 7) Those who believed were hospitable to the worker and those who rejected the worker were in fact rejecting the Gospel. It was their unbelief that sent them to hell, they rejected the Gospel. For the only thing that sends one to hell is to reject Christ. The merciful were not looking for rewards, the Gospel softened their stony heart. They did not even know they were doing good, they just responded to the word. It is not the act itself that condemns us, it is the nature of the act.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer,

That is false. I'm preaching my way through the Book of James (I'm an expository preacher) and there is a stack of doctrine in James. These are but a few examples.

1. The reason for trials in the Christian life - the testing of your faith (James 1:2-18 ESV);
2. Those who hear the word must be doers of it (James 1:19-27 ESV);
3. How to get 'pure religion' (Jas 1:26-27);
4. Partiality (favouritism) is a sin (James 2:1-13).
5. Learning to tame the anger of the tongue (James 3:1-12);
6. The doctrine of worldliness (James 4:1-12)
   
7. Etc.

What could be a greater doctrine than the prayer of faith? (James 5:13-20). There is a drove of doctrine in the Book of James.

What is doctrine? Bible Study Tools provides this definition of 'doctrine':

Doctrine

(Gk. didaskalia [didaskaliva]). Act of teaching or that which is taught. The use of the term in Scripture, however, is broader than a simple reference to information passed on from one person to another or from one generation to the next. Christianity is a religion founded on a message of good news rooted in the significance of the life of Jesus Christ. In Scripture, then, doctrine refers to the entire body of essential theological truths that define and describe that message ( 1 Tim 1:10 ; 4:16 ; 6:3 ; Titus 1:9 ). The message includes historical facts, such as those regarding the events of the life of Jesus Christ ( 1 Cor 11:23 ). But it is deeper than biographical facts alone. As J. Gresham Machen pointed out years ago, Jesus' death is an integral historical fact but it is not doctrine. Jesus' death for sins ( 1 Cor 15:3 ) is doctrine. Doctrine, then, is scriptural teaching on theological truths.​

I don't know what causes you to exclude the doctrines of James from the definition of doctrine. Could there be a blind spot there?

Oz

hello OzSpen, dirtfarmer here

In James 1:15 it states that sin brings forth "death". It is my understanding that we are already dead to sin by our life being hid with Christ.

In James 2:5 it mentions "heirs of the kingdom" Romans 8:17 states that believers are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ. How is it that possible that we can rule and reign with Christ over his kingdom and yet be subjects in his kingdom?

In James 3:1 it speaks of greater condemnation, but in Romans 8:1 it is stated that there is no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus. Explain "greater condemnation" that the believer shall receive.

In James 4:7 we are to submit to God: in verse 8 we are to draw nigh, cleanse our hands, and purify our hearts. It is my understanding that Christ has purified our hearts and cleanse us through faith in Him, am I wrong about this?

In James 4:9 it states" Be afflicted, and mourn and weep: let your laughter be turned to morning, and your joy to heaviness." Philippians 4:4 " Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

dirtfarmer here

In salvation, Is it enough to believe that Jesus is God's Son? or is it possible to believe that Jesus Is the Son of God and still not have salvation?

Belief in Christ implies a believing and a trusting in him for the forgiveness of sin. Just knowing he is who he is does not equate to having put your trust and confidence in him for the forgiveness of sin.

The evidence that one has placed their faith in Christ for the forgiveness of their sin is their new life they live by the Holy Spirit that God gave them for believing and trusting in his Son (Luke 7:47 NASB).

 

[Jim Parker]

What I am saying is that you can't find church doctrine in James.

Then why-oh why-did the CHURCH include it in the New Testament if it's not for the CHURCH?????

 

[OzSpen]

hello OzSpen, dirtfarmer here

In James 1:15 it states that sin brings forth "death". It is my understanding that we are already dead to sin by our life being hid with Christ.

In James 2:5 it mentions "heirs of the kingdom" Romans 8:17 states that believers are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ. How is it that possible that we can rule and reign with Christ over his kingdom and yet be subjects in his kingdom?

In James 3:1 it speaks of greater condemnation, but in Romans 8:1 it is stated that there is no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus. Explain "greater condemnation" that the believer shall receive.

In James 4:7 we are to submit to God: in verse 8 we are to draw nigh, cleanse our hands, and purify our hearts. It is my understanding that Christ has purified our hearts and cleanse us through faith in Him, am I wrong about this?

In James 4:9 it states" Be afflicted, and mourn and weep: let your laughter be turned to morning, and your joy to heaviness." Philippians 4:4 " Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice.

dirtfarmer,

Why did you avoid dealing with the doctrine I gave from James in #35. Yours was a red herring logical fallacy of avoidance.

Oz