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salvation

Belief in Christ implies a believing and a trusting in him for the forgiveness of sin. Just knowing he is who he is does not equate to having put your trust and confidence in him for the forgiveness of sin.

The evidence that one has placed their faith in Christ for the forgiveness of their sin is their new life they live by the Holy Spirit that God gave them for believing and trusting in his Son (Luke 7:47 NASB).

That new life will be demonstrated in the works believers do. That's why James could teach: 'So you see, faith by itself isn't enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless' (James 2:17 NLT).
 
Then why-oh why-did the CHURCH include it in the New Testament if it's not for the CHURCH?????


hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

James was written long before 397AD. when the council of Carthage established the orthodox new testament cannon. What "Church" included it in the cannon?

James doesn't have any references to the death, resurrection, or the divine Son-ship of Jesus. Only 2 times is Lord Jesus Christ used: James 1:1 and James 2:1. Christ is a title, not a name; the anointed one.
 
dirtfarmer,

Why did you avoid dealing with the doctrine I gave from James in #35. Yours was a red herring logical fallacy of avoidance.

Oz

hello OzSpen, dirtfarmer here

Not avoiding anything. Replied in post # 37
 
That new life will be demonstrated in the works believers do. That's why James could teach: 'So you see, faith by itself isn't enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless' (James 2:17 NLT).

hello OzSpen, dirtfarmer here

If God looks on the heart and knows the condition of your heart, why does he need to see your works (good deeds) to know the condition of your heart?

As I have stated before, Ephesians 2:10 states that we are God's workmanship in Christ Jesus. It is his works, not ours. The last phrase of that verse states, " That we should walk in them". It does not say that we are to produce those good works.

Jesus Christ is my "Sabbath". The end of my works for salvation. I rest in him fully secured and assured that there is nothing that I can do for, or to bring salvation to me. I live by faith in the finished work of Christ and what ever work is accomplished, it is of, for, and by him.
 
Belief in Christ implies a believing and a trusting in him for the forgiveness of sin. Just knowing he is who he is does not equate to having put your trust and confidence in him for the forgiveness of sin.

The evidence that one has placed their faith in Christ for the forgiveness of their sin is their new life they live by the Holy Spirit that God gave them for believing and trusting in his Son (Luke 7:47 NASB).

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

I agree with what you have stated in this post, but Luke 7:47 is not proof and has nothing to do with salvation.
 
What I am saying is that you can't find church doctrine in James.
SO, according to you:
When James said: "My brethren, show no partiality as you hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.", (Jas 2:1 RSV) that teaching is only for Jews. Gentile Christians are free to show all the partiality they want and honor the rich man while dishonoring the poor man.
Is that what your church teaches you?
Is that what you are telling me?

And, according to Jas 2:15-17 "If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." Is only for Jews. Gentile Christians can just ignore the persons hunger and nakedness and tell him to
be well fed and well clothed" and send him on his way.
Is that what your church teaches you?
Is that what you are telling me?

And according to Jas 3:10; "From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brethren, this ought not to be so." since that's only for Jews. It is completely saintly for a gentile Christian if he blesses the name of the Lord in one sentence and the cusses like a drunken sailor in the next.
Is that what your church teaches you?
Is that what you are telling me?

And when James said "For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice." (Jas 3:16) he was only telling that to Jews because Gentile Christians can be a jealous and selfishly ambitious and practice disorder and every vile practice and still be the holy body of Christ.
Is that what your church teaches you?
Is that what you are telling me?

And when James said, "Whoever knows what is right to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin." (Jas 4:17), that was also just for Jews because Gentiles don't have to do what is right. They can just walk right by a person in need and ignore him or her.
Is that what your church teaches you?
Is that what you are telling me?

If that's what your telling me then I wouldn't want anything to do with a religion that teaches that kind of garbage. It's certainly not what Jesus taught. But that's what you' seem to be saying when you say that's not "church"doctrine.
 
James doesn't have any references to the death, resurrection, or the divine Son-ship of Jesus.
So what?
That wasn't the purpose of his letter. The purpose of his latter is that a believer's actions should match his faith.
He didn't need to go over what people already knew.
Who teaches you this nonsense?
 
But Matthew Chapter 25 is about the 7 years of Jacob's Trouble upon the earth when the 144,000 anointed Jews preach the Gospel.
I totally reject all of that interpretation of the scriptures. It is NOT what the church originally taught.
It is a 19th century invention which has, unfortunately, infected a large part of American popular Christianity.
Mat 25:31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne."
That is the ONE and ONLY second coming of Christ.
Mat 25:32ff "Before him will be gathered all the nations," All the nations will be gathered for the ONE judgment at the end of this age.
Those who were merciful from Adam to the last man standing, inherit the kingdom; all who were not merciful go to hell.

The teaching about 144000 and Jacob's trouble does does nothing but create a new gnosticism with which to tickle itchy ears and distract people from their calling to be merciful as God is merciful and, as sons of God, to imitate God in His mercy, love, patience, kindness even to laying one's life down for his enemies as Jesus did.

Sorry. I'm not buying.

jim
 
hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

I agree with what you have stated in this post, but Luke 7:47 is not proof and has nothing to do with salvation.
Let's test that statement by simply looking at the passage:

"47“For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.” 48Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” 49Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?” 50And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”" (Luke 7:47-50 NASB)

Jesus plainly tells the woman her faith has saved her. Luke 7:47 most certainly does have everything to do with salvation. And salvation by faith, at that!
 
Let's test that statement by simply looking at the passage:

"47“For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.” 48Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” 49Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?” 50And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”" (Luke 7:47-50 NASB)

Jesus plainly tells the woman her faith has saved her. Luke 7:47 most certainly does have everything to do with salvation. And salvation by faith, at that!
And she acted on her faith.
Faith unaccompanied by action is mere agreement. Even the demons believe that Jesus is the son of God but they do not combine that belief with appropriate action.
Thus, faith without works is as dead as a demon's faith.
 
Let's test that statement by simply looking at the passage:

"47“For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.” 48Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” 49Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?” 50And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”" (Luke 7:47-50 NASB)

Jesus plainly tells the woman her faith has saved her. Luke 7:47 most certainly does have everything to do with salvation. And salvation by faith, at that!

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

Since Jesus was still walking on earth before his crucifixion, what did she have faith in for salvation?
 
I totally reject all of that interpretation of the scriptures. It is NOT what the church originally taught.
It is a 19th century invention which has, unfortunately, infected a large part of American popular Christianity.
Mat 25:31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne."
That is the ONE and ONLY second coming of Christ.
Mat 25:32ff "Before him will be gathered all the nations," All the nations will be gathered for the ONE judgment at the end of this age.
Those who were merciful from Adam to the last man standing, inherit the kingdom; all who were not merciful go to hell.

The teaching about 144000 and Jacob's trouble does does nothing but create a new gnosticism with which to tickle itchy ears and distract people from their calling to be merciful as God is merciful and, as sons of God, to imitate God in His mercy, love, patience, kindness even to laying one's life down for his enemies as Jesus did.

Sorry. I'm not buying.

jim

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

You quoting Matthew 25:31, am I to believe that you don't believe in the rapture of the body of Christ( the Church)? If so, then that explains a lot.

In verse 34 of Matthew 25 it is stated "the King": is Jesus your king? or is he the bridegroom and the Church (body of believer) are the bride?
 
Since Jesus was still walking on earth before his crucifixion, what did she have faith in for salvation?
His forgiveness.

48Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.49Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?” 50And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Luke 7:48-50 NASB bold mine)

Salvation is all about trusting in Jesus for the forgiveness of sin, not merely trusting that he exists. Believing he exists won't save a flea.

"...let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses." (Acts 13:38-39 NASB bold mine)

"13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." (Colossians 1:13-14 NASB bold mine)

"7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses" (Ephesians 1:7 NASB bold mine)

I remember one time right here in this forum when I said to K--l that salvation is by the forgiveness of sin, he adamantly resisted it. And he was a traveling minister! At the time he was in the Caribbean, I think. I was stunned that a professional worker of the gospel did not know and believe that salvation was through the forgiveness of sins secured by our faith in that forgiveness.
 
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His forgiveness.

48Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.49Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?” 50And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Luke 7:48-50 NASB bold mine)

Salvation is all about trusting in Jesus for the forgiveness of sin, not merely trusting that he exists. Believing he exists won't save a flea.

"...let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses." (Acts 13:38-39 NASB bold mine)

"13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." (Colossians 1:13-14 NASB bold mine)

"7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses" (Ephesians 1:7 NASB bold mine)

I remember one time right here in this forum when I said to K--l that salvation is by the forgiveness of sin, he adamantly resisted it. And he was a traveling minister! At the time he was in Caribbean, I think. I was stunned that a professional worker of the gospel did not know and believe that salvation was through the forgiveness of sins secured by our faith in that forgiveness.

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 states that it is the death burial and resurrection that brings salvation. If Jesus had not been resurrected from the grave what the world would have had would be a martyr not a savior.

In the verse you quoted from Ephesians, what does " in Him we have redemption through His blood" mean?
 
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dirtfarmer here

In salvation, Is it enough to believe that Jesus is God's Son? or is it possible to believe that Jesus Is the Son of God and still not have salvation?

Defining biblical words and concepts, can lead to fruitful discussion, rather than endless arguing over semantics.


Biblical believing has the components of trust and obey that many modern dictionary definitions do not employ.

Unbelief is interchangeable with Disobedience.

Example:

  • Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Hebrews 4:6 NKJV
  • Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV

Jesus said: 46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Luke 6:46

  • Saying Jesus is our Lord, and walking in obedience to Him as Lord, can be two entirely different things.

Understanding the role of biblical believing, in salvation is the key to understanding this crucial doctrine of salvation.


Another concept that seems to be misunderstood or ignored in this doctrine is:

Salvation through faith vs. receiving or obtaining the salvation of our soul as a tangible reality.

Discussing what faith is, and having something by faith vs having that thing as a reality, is crucial to understanding that continuing in the faith until the thing you are hoping for is obtained is necessary, if one hopes to obtain the thing they are hoping for.


A healthy discussion of these things, could lead to a clearer understanding of salvation.



JLB
 
hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 states that it is the death burial and resurrection that brings salvation. If Jesus had resurrected from the grave what the world would have had would be a martyr not a savior.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

Paul declares that through receiving and holding fast to the Gospel, is how a person is saved.

The condition of holding fast to the Gospel message you received, is an integral part of salvation.


Paul then goes on to explain what he also received, all of which is listed in the following verses.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

These verse's contain what Paul received, which include:

Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures
and that He was buried,
and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present,
After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.
Then last of all He was seen by me also
That is what Paul received

The above mention things that Paul also received, is not the Gospel.


  • The Gospel is: Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.

This is the Gospel that was preached by Jesus Christ, and His Apostles.

Repent is the command of the Gospel, that must be obeyed.

Repent means to turn to God.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

The way that your express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

  • This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

The way we are granted the forgiveness of sins, is by repenting, which means turning away from Satan and his kingdom, and turning to God, and confessing Jesus as Lord.

This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.

15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18


Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.

It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.

The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the lord you serve.


JLB
 
Defining biblical words and concepts, can lead to fruitful discussion, rather than endless arguing over semantics.


Biblical believing has the components of trust and obey that many modern dictionary definitions do not employ.

Unbelief is interchangeable with Disobedience.

Example:

  • Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Hebrews 4:6 NKJV
  • Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV
Jesus said: 46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Luke 6:46

  • Saying Jesus is our Lord, and walking in obedience to Him as Lord, can be two entirely different things.

Understanding the role of biblical believing, in salvation is the key to understanding this crucial doctrine of salvation.


Another concept that seems to be misunderstood or ignored in this doctrine is:

Salvation through faith vs. receiving or obtaining the salvation of our soul as a tangible reality.

Discussing what faith is, and having something by faith vs having that thing as a reality, is crucial to understanding that continuing in the faith until the thing you are hoping for is obtained is necessary, if one hopes to obtain the thing they are hoping for.


A healthy discussion of these things, could lead to a clearer understanding of salvation.



JLB


hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

I do not believe or accept your doctrine that "unbelief is interchangeable with disobedience." Unbelief leads to a high-handed rebellion which is disobedience.
In Romans 4:20 :" He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief." Not interchangeable with disobedience.

In 1 Timothy 1:13 is Paul saying that he was disobedient. " I did it ignorantly in unbelief"? Or, in Philippians 3:5 " Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews, as touching the law, a Pharisee."

Salvation is a "now" thing. Our citizenship is in heaven: Philippians 3:20 " For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour; the Lord Jesus Christ."
Ephesian 2:19 " Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God."

What I am waiting for is the salvation of my body. When we shall not be in the presence of sin and the world, but in the presence of my Lord and savior, Jesus Christ.
 
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

Paul declares that through receiving and holding fast to the Gospel, is how a person is saved.

The condition of holding fast to the Gospel message you received, is an integral part of salvation.


Paul then goes on to explain what he also received, all of which is listed in the following verses.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

These verse's contain what Paul received, which include:

Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures
and that He was buried,
and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present,
After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.
Then last of all He was seen by me also
That is what Paul received

The above mention things that Paul also received, is not the Gospel.


  • The Gospel is: Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.

This is the Gospel that was preached by Jesus Christ, and His Apostles.

Repent is the command of the Gospel, that must be obeyed.

Repent means to turn to God.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

The way that your express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

  • This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

The way we are granted the forgiveness of sins, is by repenting, which means turning away from Satan and his kingdom, and turning to God, and confessing Jesus as Lord.

This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.

15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18


Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.

It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.

The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the lord you serve.


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

I have explained before that " believing in vain" was those that didn't believe that Jesus rose from the dead, not those that "lost" their salvation by quit believing. Romans 15:13-17.

If you want to believe that you can break the seal of the Holy Spirit and become lost again, then you are trampling under your feet the blood of Christ and counting it an unholy thing.
 
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

Paul declares that through receiving and holding fast to the Gospel, is how a person is saved.

The condition of holding fast to the Gospel message you received, is an integral part of salvation.


Paul then goes on to explain what he also received, all of which is listed in the following verses.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

These verse's contain what Paul received, which include:

Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures
and that He was buried,
and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present,
After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.
Then last of all He was seen by me also
That is what Paul received

The above mention things that Paul also received, is not the Gospel.


  • The Gospel is: Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.

This is the Gospel that was preached by Jesus Christ, and His Apostles.

Repent is the command of the Gospel, that must be obeyed.

Repent means to turn to God.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

The way that your express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

  • This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

The way we are granted the forgiveness of sins, is by repenting, which means turning away from Satan and his kingdom, and turning to God, and confessing Jesus as Lord.

This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.

15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18


Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.

It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.

The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the lord you serve.


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

You seem to be calling Paul a liar: 1 Corinthians 15:1 " Moreover brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you.

Verse 3 & 4 is the gospel he preached.

 
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