Saturday Or Sunday Church ?

[SputnikBoy]

If we were still bound by the law then we would have to work our way to salvation through obedience. This is not the case though for we were 'given' salvation through the death of Jesus Christ. Yes, we are to do what's right and shun what is wrong but the chains of the law have been broken and we are free children through grace.

And, if one believes that they are bound by the law, then they are bound to ALL LAW and not just the ones they choose to follow.

By ALL LAW, which of the laws are REALLY that difficult to keep? If we're referring to the Ten Commandments, then NONE of the ten are beyond our capacity to keep ...except, perhaps, the fourth.

I'm not suggesting for one minute that we don't fall at times - we're human - but there are provisions of repentence for those who do fall. That we WILL at times fall surely doesn't mean that we go out of our way (as SOME seem to do on this forum) to promote NONobedience to the Law. There is nothing wrong with the Law, as Paul said, but somehow there are those who put the keeping of it in to the 'too hard basket'. As I say repeatedly, it's the keeping of the first four commandments that set the Christian apart from the nonchristian.

NRoof presented some pretty convincing scriptures supporting obedience to the commandments. Do we heed those scriptures or do we toss them out as being inconvenient for us?

 

[kwag_myers]

A problem:

Those who equate the Law with the "commandments" mentioned by Christ, Paul, and John have to prove that that is indeed the case. What commandments were they talking about? If you cannot prove a connection, you have no case.

I would also suggest a close reading of Galatians.

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.

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Mark 12:31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

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John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

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John 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

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Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

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1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

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2 John 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. 1Jo 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

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So, basically, it's just one commandment: Love. Those of us who love the Lord keep His Laws out of love. It's not a religious act, or out of fear, but out of love for our Father.

 

[NRoof]

A problem:

Those who equate the Law with the "commandments" mentioned by Christ, Paul, and John have to prove that that is indeed the case. What commandments were they talking about? If you cannot prove a connection, you have no case.

I would also suggest a close reading of Galatians.

Free,
Could you please expand what you see as a problem. I'm the first to admit I'm not very knowledgeable in the ways of the Lord (I'm not a theologian). If you feel my understanding in incorrect then please help me out. I know what I believe but I am not arrogant in that believe. Meaning I am willing to entertain the fact that I may be incorrect.

It would help me if you told me what you think was meant by following his commandments.

 

[Lewis]

Do I have to say this for the 3rd time ? Yeah I guess so. Look the moral laws still stand, who wants to lay down with their sister, or steal, or worship graven images, rape a mans wife, or are a homosexual. Don't you see these moral laws still stand. Jesus said that He came to fulfill the law, not to get rid of it. The law was our schoolmaster, in that it taught us what sin is.

 

[Jay T]

First, we are no longer 'bound' by the law. Yes, sin is still sin, but to sin no longer demands death for there is NOW SALVATION. The seventh day will always be the seventh day, (Saturday). BUT, Christ made it perfectly clear that EVERYDAY is the Lord's day.
And just where in scripture did He say that ?

I am not a Jew so the traditions of the Jewish temple have no bearing on me or my behavior.

No where in all scripture will anyone find where it says that the 7th day sabbath is jewish.....as the 7th day sabbath, was established some 2300+ years ...BEFORE...there ever was a jew.


Those who will not follow Christ's command to observe the 7th day sabbath, will not be allowed onto the New earth, to create rebellion towards the sabbath there....
Isaiah 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD".

 

[Jay T]

First, we are no longer 'bound' by the law. Yes, sin is still sin, but to sin no longer demands death for there is NOW SALVATION. The seventh day will always be the seventh day, (Saturday). BUT, Christ made it perfectly clear that EVERYDAY is the Lord's day.
And just where in scripture did He say that ?

I am not a Jew so the traditions of the Jewish temple have no bearing on me or my behavior.

No where in all scripture will anyone find where it says that the 7th day sabbath is jewish.....as the 7th day sabbath, was established some 2300+ years ...BEFORE...there ever was a jew.


Those who will not follow Christ's command to observe the 7th day sabbath, will not be allowed onto the New earth, to create rebellion towards the sabbath there....
Isaiah 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD".

 

[kwag_myers]

Those who will not follow Christ's command to observe the 7th day sabbath, will not be allowed onto the New earth, to create rebellion towards the sabbath there....
Isaiah 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD".

The word sabbath can also be translated to week or year, or even day of atonement. So is Isaiah saying, "from one week to another", "from one year to another", or "from on day of atonement to another"?

The bottom line is what Jesus told the pharisees about the sabbath in 2:27, "...man was not made for the sabbath, but the sabbath for man..." What Imagican says about the law is true in the sense that we don't have to observe the seventh day as sabbath. However, resting from our own works is in keeping with the New Testament teachings. Keeping the sabbath for a Christian means to rest in the Lord. We are saved by grace, we only do works that the Holy Spirit instructs us to do (Acts 8:29; 11:12; 16:7; Galatians 5:18).

To continue to observe a specific day of the week as the sabbath is exactly what the pharisees taught, and wanted to kill Jesus for not doing.

 

[SputnikBoy]

To continue to observe a specific day of the week as the sabbath is exactly what the pharisees taught, and wanted to kill Jesus for not doing.

If that's how you see it, kwag, then you've obviously got it backwards. Both the pharisees AND Jesus observed the Sabbath. The way the Pharisees kept the Sabbath, however, was not based on love but on legalism. The way Jesus kept the Sabbath was NOT based on legalism but on love. The Sabbath: Pharisees - the letter of the Law. Jesus - the spirit of the Law. Big difference.

And yet, this is the very thing that occurs today when Sunday-keeping Christians attack Sabbatarian Christians. They expect SDAs (in particular) to either keep the Sabbath as would a Pharisee or not keep it at all. The very thing they (Sunday-keepers) accuse Adventists of - legalism - is exactly what they DEMAND of Adventists.

Keeping the Sabbath certainly CAN be an act of legalism, no doubt about that. There probably ARE SDAs who are Pharisaical as there are probably others in other denominations who are Pharisaical. But the keeping of the Sabbath in and of itself is something that was customary for Jesus. Your implication that Jesus didn't keep the Sabbath is totally incorrect. In regard to this issue, one can either emulate the weekly practice of Jesus, or one can continue to follow a practice that was initiated by our good friends, the RCC. I know which of the alternatives I would opt for.

 

[Jay T]

And yet, this is the very thing that occurs today when Sunday-keeping Christians attack Sabbatarian Christians.

It must be remembered that Christ, set up the 7th day sabbath, as the [sign] of a relatuionship between Himself and the true believer in Him..... 20:20 "And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a [sign] between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God".
And if anyone can show me a Bible verse, which makes that statement null and void, I'll be glad to listen.

 

[Lewis]

To continue to observe a specific day of the week as the sabbath is exactly what the pharisees taught, and wanted to kill Jesus for not doing.

Yes Jesus let them know that you could do somethings on the Sabbath day. But Jesus came to fulfill the law not remove it.

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

So if the Lord says He changes not.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

When Jesus was on earth He kept the Sabbath which was on Saturdays.
My thing is when did God ever say when to change it ? Never, but the Catholics made the change to Sunday. It is called the Sunday Law Edict of March 7, 321 A.D.

 

[guibox]

Never, but the Catholics made the change to Sunday. It is called the Sunday Law Edict of March 7, 321 A.D.

Actually, Lewis, this is not true. Constantine merely enacted a Sunday law more for honoring the pagan aspect, not the Christian. This served two purposes to please both Christians and pagans. However, this was far from 'changing the day'.

Technically, the whole 'Sunday replaces the Sabbath' issue was not fully ratified until the Council of Carthage (436 A.D.), but the recognizing Sunday as an important day was promoted by certain church fathers merely decades after John's death.

The problem here lies in that many Sunday promoters use these church fathers to read back into the NT their views that Sunday was a day of worship for NT Christians and replaced the Sabbath. "After all, if Justin Martyr was promoting Sunday, he must have gotten it from Paul and John's teachings!

This is just not true and cannot be read back into the scriptures (such as Revelation 1:10)

We see that history shows apostasy can occur quite quickly when men try to put their own preconceived views on things. Then it snowballs from there. It didn't take much or long for heresies such as Arianism, Pelagianism, secret rapture and 666 being some tattoo on your forehead to take shape and become standard doctrine for many.

Sunday and Sabbath was kept side by side by many Christians and the Christians at the head church of Jerusalem were keeping Sabbath.

Hmm...I guess THEY must have misunderstood Paul too! :roll:

 

[Jay T]

We are saved by grace, we only do works that the Holy Spirit instructs us to do (Acts 8:29; 11:12; 16:7; Galatians 5:18).

And, since the Holy Spirit was the chief intrument in the writing of the Bible.....what the Bible says is....to, "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy".

To continue to observe a specific day of the week as the sabbath is exactly what the pharisees taught, and wanted to kill Jesus for not doing.

The Pharisees tried to make the sabbath a burden, a yoke of bondage, just as the religious leaders of today try to do.

God tells us to call the sabbath a 'delight', which means....there is something wonderful about sabbath observance, which satan wants no one to understand...as he is at 'WAR' against the commandments of God, and those people who are loyal to God by sabbath observance.....Revelation 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make [war] with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ".

 

[Heidi]

If people believed Hewbrews 4:1-9, that the Sabbath is Jesus Christ our Lord, then there would be no reason to quibble about which day of the week is the Sabbath. But because the law is as important to some people as it is to the Jews, and some feel their salvation depends on it, then I suppose it would be as important to them as it is to the Jews.

But Paul says in Romans 14:5 when talking about the faith of the weak and the strong, "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers everyday alike."

Now this passage doesn't come from someone who is commanding us to honor one specific day of the week! Yet the bible tells us to honor the Sabbath and keep it holy. So since that is one of the Ten Commandments, then why do you think Paul is so cavalier about which we day we should honor if the Sabbath is a day of the week? :o

So you guys, stop quibbling about the law. It's foolish. Jesus fulfilled all of it for us. And if it doesn't matter to Paul which day of the week we should honor, then why should it matter to you? :-? Paul is obviously saying that which day we honor is not what we should focus on which proves that the Sabbath is not a day of the week.

 

[guibox]

But Paul says in Romans 14:5 when talking about the faith of the weak and the strong, "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers everyday alike."

Now this passage doesn't come from someone who is commanding us to honor one specific day of the week! Yet the bible tells us to honor the Sabbath and keep it holy. So since that is one of the Ten Commandments, then why do you think Paul is so cavalier about which we day we should honor if the Sabbath is a day of the week? :o

Because Paul is not talking about the seventh day Sabbath but pagan observance of specific days. Really, Heidi. If you looked at the context along with Galatians 4 and Colossians 2, you'd see that 'elemental worship', 'going back to the rudiments of the world' are the issue here. This is a pagan controversy, not observance of the Torah.

Do you honestly think that Paul would regulate days such as Sabbath, Pentecost, and Passover to merely somone's personal opinion and preference as to whether they should observe it or not?

Paul put up with so much crap over something like circumcision, for Pete's sake, and yet we are to believe (as we must, as the NT is glaringly silent and devoid of any controversy on the Pharisee's part) that the Pharisee's were perfectly fine with such a 'godlike' regulation and cavalier generalization as what you are suggesting?

Paul's own words show that this is not so...context is everything, Heidi, not imposing and believing your own preconceived ideas.

 

[SputnikBoy]

But Paul says in Romans 14:5 when talking about the faith of the weak and the strong, "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers everyday alike."

Now this passage doesn't come from someone who is commanding us to honor one specific day of the week! Yet the bible tells us to honor the Sabbath and keep it holy. So since that is one of the Ten Commandments, then why do you think Paul is so cavalier about which we day we should honor if the Sabbath is a day of the week? :o

While guibox has already addressed your above post quite adequately, Heidi, I feel that you're getting off way too lightly here.

You (and others) consistently use this passage to try to make your point about the abolition of the Sabbath. Would you, Heidi, give us a run down of that particular text, WHAT prompted Paul to say it, WHO he was talking to, and to WHAT was he referring? Please ...either explain this scripture in its proper context or don't ever use it again as a means to dismiss the Sabbath.

 

[kwag_myers]

If you read the entire chapter, Paul is kinda repeating what Jesus said about judging others with that 'log in your eye' thing. When Paul says (in Romans 14:2) that one man's faith allows him to eat anything while another's faith causes them to limit their diet, he's saying that we all have different doctrines that we live by. I should point out that the phrase "...who is weak..." is astheneo in the Greek and can also mean needy or poor. So, it's not necessarily a reflection on a person's faith as to whether it's weak or strong.

But I think the message in Romans 14 is that we must live by what the Holy Spirit reveals to us and not be judgemental of what the Holy Spirit reveals to others. If someone wants to hold Saturday as the sabbath, they shouldn't be criticized by one who holds Sunday as the sabbath.

That's the gist of the verse as I see it. But I still say you guys are missing the meaning of the New Testament Sabbath. We rest in Jesus, He is our Sabbath Rest.

 

[guibox]

If you read the entire chapter, Paul is kinda repeating what Jesus said about judging others with that 'log in your eye' thing. When Paul says (in Romans 14:2) that one man's faith allows him to eat anything while another's faith causes them to limit their diet, he's saying that we all have different doctrines that we live by. I should point out that the phrase "...who is weak..." is astheneo in the Greek and can also mean needy or poor. So, it's not necessarily a reflection on a person's faith as to whether it's weak or strong.

But I think the message in Romans 14 is that we must live by what the Holy Spirit reveals to us and not be judgemental of what the Holy Spirit reveals to others. If someone wants to hold Saturday as the sabbath, they shouldn't be criticized by one who holds Sunday as the sabbath.

That's the gist of the verse as I see it. But I still say you guys are missing the meaning of the New Testament Sabbath. We rest in Jesus, He is our Sabbath Rest.

kwaq, please see this thread for my study on Romans 14:4,5

Sabbath in Romans

 

[SputnikBoy]

I still say you guys are missing the meaning of the New Testament Sabbath. We rest in Jesus, He is our Sabbath Rest.

God was quite specific when He gave the Sabbath command, indeed, ALL of the Ten Commandments. It was not couched in ambigous scriptures where one might be prompted to ask, "What did God mean exactly? ...did He mean this? ...or did He mean that ...?" No. We didn't need a degree in theology either. A prince or a pauper could understand the simple message. God left absolutely NO DOUBT as to what His instructions were ...both to the Jew and to ALL mankind.

Do you not think, kwag, that any new changes to His Law would not be AS clearly defined as they were in the initial commands? YOU BET THEY WOULD! Everything you guys come up with to do away with the Sabbath command comes from specific and ambiguous scriptures that have been misinterpreted by the 'Sunday Sabbath supporters' from the start. What we have here is a situation where ignorance has been given the status of truth. And so many of you guys are choosing to buy it.

 

[kwag_myers]

kwaq, please see this thread for my study on Romans 14:4,5

Sabbath in Romans

I did, and I disagree with your statement concerning the context of the passage. Keeping in mind that Paul did not break his letter into chapters, let me start at Romans 13. Here, Paul is talking about how we must conduct ourselves; subject to authority, love your neighbor, don't give in to evil temptations, etc. Verse 14, "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof]." I fail to see where Paul changes gears and starts talking about "pagan observance of specific days". What he is saying is not to judge someone else for what the Holy Spirit has revealed to them (in keeping with the "love thy neighbor" theme in Chapter 13).

You may be guilty of your own accusation. The overall theme of Romans is "walk by faith". How you get "don't practice pagan observances of specific days" out of "love thy neighbor" is beyond my ability to comprehend.

God was quite specific when He gave the Sabbath command, indeed, ALL of the Ten Commandments. It was not couched in ambigous scriptures where one might be prompted to ask, "What did God mean exactly? ...did He mean this? ...or did He mean that ...?" No. We didn't need a degree in theology either. A prince or a pauper could understand the simple message. God left absolutely NO DOUBT as to what His instructions were ...both to the Jew and to ALL mankind.

Do you not think, kwag, that any new changes to His Law would not be AS clearly defined as they were in the initial commands? YOU BET THEY WOULD! Everything you guys come up with to do away with the Sabbath command comes from specific and ambiguous scriptures that have been misinterpreted by the 'Sunday Sabbath supporters' from the start. What we have here is a situation where ignorance has been given the status of truth. And so many of you guys are choosing to buy it.

1 Corinthians 2:13-16: When we tell you this, we do not use words of human wisdom. We speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths. But people who aren't Christians can't understand these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them because only those who have the Spirit can understand what the Spirit means. We who have the Spirit understand these things, but others can't understand us at all. How could they? For,

"Who can know what the Lord is thinking?
Who can give him counsel?" (Isaiah 40:13)

But we can understand these things, for we have the mind of Christ."

Verse 7, "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:"

My point, God's Word is full of mysteries. For you to say, "clearly defined" is contrary to 1 Corinthians 2. We can only begin to understand God's mysteries when we allow the Holy Spirit, through God's Word, to renew our minds.

If you want to keep a specific day as sabbath, go ahead. I just feel obligated to inform you that I think you may be putting yourself under law, therefore missing out on the blessing that we all have in Christ who has done it all, it is finished, completed, no need to earn our righteousness through the keeping of the Old Covenant.

Just don't put this Saturday/Sunday thing on me, because the Holy Spirit has shown me that the New Covenant is to rest in Jesus. He has done it all and I only need to walk in the belief that He has made me righteous.

 

[guibox]

I did, and I disagree with your statement concerning the context of the passage. Keeping in mind that Paul did not break his letter into chapters, let me start at Romans 13. Here, Paul is talking about how we must conduct ourselves; subject to authority, love your neighbor, don't give in to evil temptations, etc. Verse 14, "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof]." I fail to see where Paul changes gears and starts talking about "pagan observance of specific days". What he is saying is not to judge someone else for what the Holy Spirit has revealed to them (in keeping with the "love thy neighbor" theme in Chapter 13).

It is just as much a stretch to go from conducting ourselves to abrogation of holy days without a word of explanation why, especially when Paul had to defend himself vigorously over saying circumcision doesn't matter.

If the problem is judging and being subject to authority, it makes much more sense for it to be over frivolous feast days and rituals then something as important and national as important holy days like the Sabbath, Pentacost and Passover.

Sorry, kwaq. The context of the whole section doesn't add up to what you want it to be. The evidence just doesn't support it.

If you want to keep a specific day as sabbath, go ahead. I just feel obligated to inform you that I think you may be putting yourself under law, therefore missing out on the blessing that we all have in Christ who has done it all, it is finished, completed, no need to earn our righteousness through the keeping of the Old Covenant.

Your assumption is that we are keeping the law to earn righteousness. We are not and herein lies your redundant contradictions. We do not keep them to earn righteousness, we keep them out of love. You don't not cheat on your wife because it's not allowed in a marriage, you don't cheat because you love your wife and you've committed yourself to her.

However, you and Heidi and others choose to ignore context and beat the dead horse of 'earning for righteousness' when nobody is there to argue that with.