Saved by Grace not of works !

[Grubal Muruch]

gb



Thats a false Gospel, and teaching salvation by works..

I heard that somewhere before??

 

[savedbygrace57]

I heard that somewhere before??

You going to keep hearing it, since you keep teaching salvation by works, by what man does.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

You going to keep hearing it, since you keep teaching salvation by works, by what man does.

Why not try it from another angle, then you don't sound "repetitious."

 

[savedbygrace57]

Why not try it from another angle, then you don't sound "repetitious."

Thats ok, as long as you teach salvation by works, then I will tell you about it !

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Thats ok, as long as you teach salvation by works, then I will tell you about it !

That's better...

 

[glorydaz]

God calls ALL of mankind through His word, but those chosen are they who place their faith and receive Christ as Lord and Savior...

Amen. Jesus is the Elect One of God.
Those who believe on Him shall not be confounded, for we are His body, and He is our Head.

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Amen. Jesus is the Elect One of God.
Those who believe on Him shall not be confounded, for we are His body, and He is our Head.

Jesus is the Elect One of God. I'd like to carry that, one step further. When a person, through faith, receives Christ as, Lord and Savior, the Holy Spirit then, places that person into the "body of Christ" so, in a sense, Christ is the "elect," due to the fact that, the "true elect" are in Him...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Amen. Jesus is the Elect One of God.
Those who believe on Him shall not be confounded, for we are His body, and He is our Head.

(Jesus is the Elect One of God.) I'd like to carry that, one step further. When a person, through faith, receives Christ as, Lord and Savior, the Holy Spirit then, places that person into the "body of Christ" so, in a sense, Christ is the "elect," due to the fact that, the "true elect" are in Him...In Ephesians 5:2 it states, "And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, (and hath given himself for us)an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savoir. So, in essence, Christ cannot be considered the "elect" but considering the true "elect" are within His body, we can say that, "Christ is the elect due to the fact, all (born again) true believers are in Him...

 

[glorydaz]

(Jesus is the Elect One of God.) I'd like to carry that, one step further. When a person, through faith, receives Christ as, Lord and Savior, the Holy Spirit then, places that person into the "body of Christ" so, in a sense, Christ is the "elect," due to the fact that, the "true elect" are in Him...In Ephesians 5:2 it states, "And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, (and hath given himself for us)an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savoir. So, in essence, Christ cannot be considered the "elect" but considering the true "elect" are within His body, we can say that, "Christ is the elect due to the fact, all (born again) true believers are in Him...

You bring up an interesting point, Grubal. Elect means chosen, correct? I think a lot of problems come from this idea that the elect are certain ones chosen by God before the foundation of the world. But who was the Chosen One through which all others came.

Jesus is the One chosen by God to provide salvation to man. Only those who believe will enter into the Elect One and become one of the elect. Therefore, we become elect when we believe...not before. Those who believe are the elect (chosen) because they are IN HIM. It's one's position in Christ that makes them elect because He is the Elect One.

See what you think....

The Jews recognized Jesus was claiming to be the chosen one referred to here in Isaiah.

And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

 

[Grubal Muruch]

You bring up an interesting point, Grubal. Elect means chosen, correct? I think a lot of problems come from this idea that the elect are certain ones chosen by God before the foundation of the world. But who was the Chosen One through which all others came.

Jesus is the One chosen by God to provide salvation to man. Only those who believe will enter into the Elect One and become one of the elect. Therefore, we become elect when we believe...not before. Those who believe are the elect (chosen) because they are IN HIM. It's one's position in Christ that makes them elect because He is the Elect One.

See what you think....

The Jews recognized Jesus was claiming to be the chosen one referred to here in Isaiah.

You know, I think there's something to what you have added...I'm going to explore this further. But, what you have said, makes for good logical reasoning and is backed by Scripture. AMEN...

 

[savedbygrace57]

How is it through Faith ?

How is it through Faith ? Because of the corruption of False teachers, the element of faith in the regards of salvation by Grace through Faith, they having imposed upon faith that it is an condition that man must meet or do to get saved [making their faith savior] which is a lie, so then in what sense are we to understand that Salvation is by Grace through Faith ?

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God Rom 10:17

17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. The word of Faith vs 8

Faith is believing God's word of promise,in other words, faith rests in what God has said He will do or has performed. You see God is going to perform His Pleasure whether we believe or not ! 2 Tim 2:13, however Faith is given in order to have confidence in God's word and ability to do what He says !

Case in point, When God promised Abraham and Sarah a Son in their advanced age, by nature, it was not believed by either Abraham or his wife Gen 17:16-17 and Gen 18:12-13, however by God given Faith, they were enabled to believe God for the promise, that He was able to perform it.

Now in Heb 11 where we are given a description of this God given Faith Heb 11:1, we are then told how it changed the natural doubt and unbelief that Sarah had when she first heard the promise from her tent in Gen 18:11, now compare Heb 11:11

11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

You see that ? Now ask yourself, was God's word of Promise to give Sarah a Son against nature, in her old age, conditioned upon Sarah believing it ? No it was not, but Sarah's Faith was conditioned upon God's word of Promise to her. God given Faith gives Glory to God Rom 4:18-21

18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:

20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

The Promise God was sure, even before Abraham could believe. So Faith comes as a effect or result of God's word of Promise.

 

[Drew]

Paul has already said only the "doers" will be justified. He then goes on to explain that Jesus Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to those who believe.

]For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Indeed, but this works perfectly well with Paul actually writes in Romans 2 and Romans 8 about final justification by good works.

This is the real problem - you have a frame of interpretation that forces you to do violence to what Paul actually writes in Romans 2 and Romans 8 - where the language is crystal clear to the effect that the criterion for final justification is how the Spirit has transformed us into people who do good works.

On the other hand, the model that I am presenting takes Paul at his word in Romans 2 and 8, and also takes Paul at his word here in Romans 10.

How ? Quite simple, actually.

Of course Christ is the "end of the law" as any kind of way to attain righteousness. The Law of Moses never served that role anyway. There is an extra complication that I will address shortly. For now, I will repeat the basic Pauline position as I (and many others, including respected theologians like NT Wright) see it: When a person places faith in Jesus, they are given the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit then transforms that person in a way they could otherwise not be. So, at the end, as the result of this transformation, they are indeed found to be "persisting in good works", just as Romans 2 requires.

So, you see, the position I am advancing works perfectly well with Romans 10 - Once you have Christ, you get the Spirit and will most assuredly "persist in doing good".

But the stuff in Romans 2 (and 8) means what it says!!!

The "test" for final jusfitication is indeed "good works".

Now to the complication. For reasons that I will not get into in this post, I assert the following:

1. The "law" in Romans 2:13 is not the Law of Moses;
2. The law in Romans 10 is the law of Moses.

I have not pointed this out yet, so the reader may think that since I take Romans 2:13 seriously, I believe that there will be justification by the Law of Moses.

I do not believe this.

One of the troubles with Paul's model is that it is complicated. Well, so be it. We need to let Paul make his case and not impose our "systems" on him.

As should be clear, when we insist on forcing Paul into our expectations, we get exactly what we see in this thread: posters morphing what Paul actually says into something else.

 

[Drew]

I will remind readers of a critical fact. I presented two detailed, clear, Biblical arguments to the effect that what Paul is really denying in Ephesians 2:8-9 is that you can be saved by doing the works of the Law of Moses. And, by implication, that he is not denying salvation by good works.

Saved By Grace and Global Muruch are two proponents of the "standard" view on this text - the view that is denying salvation by good works in that text.

I have repeatedly reminded both of them that, in a serious debate, it is simply unacceptable to ignore arguments that challenge one's position.

And yet, my arguments remain entirely unengaged by these posters.

Now why do you suppose that is? Clearly, these two posters are motivated to support their position - they have posted repeatedly in this thread.

You, dear reader, are free to form your own opinions to why these posters are not engaging those arguments.

This post may seem "petty", but I really think we need to call each other to account here, if, repeat if, the understanding here is that we are serious co-seekers of Biblical truth, and are not here simply to advance our own personal views. I fully expect to be held to the same standard - if there is some argument that has been made that I have not addressed, please remind me of it, and hold me accountable to address it.

I believe its OK for me to say that I "ignore" certain posters, because I believe them to be either ill-intentioned or otherwise not serious. But if you are not on that "list" of those I ignore (I am not allowed to name these people), please hold me to the same standard that I am "demanding" of others.

 

[glorydaz]

The "test" for final jusfitication is indeed "good works".

Now to the complication. For reasons that I will not get into in this post, I assert the following:

1. The "law" in Romans 2:13 is not the Law of Moses;
2. The law in Romans 10 is the law of Moses.

I have not pointed this out yet, so the reader may think that since I take Romans 2:13 seriously, I believe that there will be justification by the Law of Moses.

I do not believe this.

One of the troubles with Paul's model is that it is complicated. Well, so be it. We need to let Paul make his case and not impose our "systems" on him.

As should be clear, when we insist on forcing Paul into our expectations, we get exactly what we see in this thread: posters morphing what Paul actually says into something else.

I agree the law in Romans 2 is not the law of Moses, and I agree the law in that portion of Romans 10 is the law of moses. But, as we see here...there is the righteousness of faith. We are justified by faith...."believeth unto righteousness", and "confession unto salvation".

There is no "test" for final justification by our doing anything. Christ said, "It is finished," and He meant it.

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[glorydaz]

Faith is believing God's word of promise,in other words, faith rests in what God has said He will do or has performed. You see God is going to perform His Pleasure whether we believe or not ! 2 Tim 2:13, however Faith is given in order to have confidence in God's word and ability to do what He says !

Case in point, When God promised Abraham and Sarah a Son in their advanced age, by nature, it was not believed by either Abraham or his wife Gen 17:16-17 and Gen 18:12-13, however by God given Faith, they were enabled to believe God for the promise, that He was able to perform it.

You aren't taking into account Abraham's initial act of faith, before the Promise was given. Before God gave the promise, He established a covenant with Abraham. The token of which was circumsion. In faith, Abraham went out the same day and initiated it.

This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

It certainly took faith for Abraham to obey God. That was Abraham's faith in God.

And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him. And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son. And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.

 

[Drew]

I agree the law in Romans 2 is not the law of Moses, and I agree the law in that portion of Romans 10 is the law of moses.

I am pleased that we agree on this - I suspect that very few people see things this way.

There is no "test" for final justification by our doing anything. Christ said, "It is finished," and He meant it.

At the risk of "piling on":

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

So unless you expunge your Bible of these statements, there is indeed a "works-based" test.

When Jesus said "it is finished", he did not say "you do not have to manifest the works of the Holy Spirit to be saved at the end"

Here is the real problem. I am saying that Paul believes that we need Spirit-generated works to be saved. This is clear from Romans 8! It says what it says!!

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

You seem to think that even if we do not "put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit", we will live.

Well, I suggest this one verse shows that you should not be surprised that Spirit-generated works are indeed the test:

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son

I say that such conforming matters!! Why? Because of Romans 2 and the fact that we will be given eternal life according to persisting in doing good!

You seem to think that that being predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son is entirely disconnected from the matter of final salvation.

Do you not see how this "pre-destination to conformity" is precisely the thing that makes Romans 2:6-7 achievable?

If not for the work of the Holy Spirit, assuring this transformation, we could never pass the Romans 2 judgement.

But because of the work of the Holy Spirit, that transformation is assured.

 

[savedbygrace57]

How is it through Faith ?

Now lets look at the definition of a divinely given Faith Heb 11:1

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

And observe how it fits in with Salvation by Grace through Faith ! God's Eternal Purpose which He purposed in Himself before the world began Eph 3:11

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:


Eph 1:9

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

2 Tim 1:9

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 1:2


2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

This Purpose is hid or not known to natural sight and understanding . Matt 11:25-26

25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Matt 13:11

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

1 Cor 2:14

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Yes, even the election of grace, who by nature are children of wrath as others [ Eph 2:3], and so being, were as spiritually dead and destitute of any ability to see or understand anything of the spiritual kingdom of God Jn 3:3


3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

or what God has laid up in store for them 1 Cor 2:6-7 !

Now, the word see in Jn 3:3 means to understand, and Jesus plainly says a man cannot, unless born again, understand the Kingdom of God, which logically means, he cannot understand the Gospel of the Kingdom of God unless already born again ! Matt 13:19

When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

So the knowledge of their salvation comes to them through Faith,which is a revelation of the Spirit to their faith, faith which is the fruit of having been born again of the Spirit Gal 5:22, thats why it is said this in Lk 1:77

To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

A Knowledge or revelation of their salvation is given to God's People, because of the remission of their sins, through the blood of Christ. This Faith is not of themselves, but of the Spirit of Christ, it is a gift of God, as so was the Spirit given to them Acts 2:38; Rom 5:5;Gal 4:6

 

[glorydaz]

I am pleased that we agree on this - I suspect that very few people see things this way.


For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

So unless you expunge your Bible of these statements, there is indeed a "works-based" test.

I'll address this first. There are two distinct groups of people here in Romans 8. Those who walk NOT after the flesh are those who walk after the Spirit (spiritual man). Those who walk after the flesh are the unsaved (carnal man).

We see no condemnation for those who walk after the Spirit (spiritual man). Correct?

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The spiritual man is Christ's. The carnal man is not.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Carnal man lives after the flesh, and shall die.

Spiritual man lives after the Spirit and lives. "What about that underlined part," you say?

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

"If" must either be an uncertainty or a certainty. It can't be an uncertainty since Paul says there is no condemnation for those in the Spirit. Mortify indicates the means by which God has ordained that we reach the proper end, and that's done through the Spirit. Any attempts we make to mortify the flesh would be as pointless as sleeping on a bed of nails. There is no room anywhere in this entire chapter that would show a spiritual man would be able to keep his flesh from being mortified by the Spirit.

Here is the underlined part...already taken care of by the Spirit. There is no condemnation, the Spirit dwells in us, and has quickened our mortal bodies. It's a certainty that the Spirit will mortify the deeds of our flesh...it's His job, not ours.

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 

[glorydaz]

Well, I suggest this one verse shows that you should not be surprised that Spirit-generated works are indeed the test:

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son

I say that such conforming matters!! Why? Because of Romans 2 and the fact that we will be given eternal life according to persisting in doing good!

You seem to think that that being predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son is entirely disconnected from the matter of final salvation.

Do you not see how this "pre-destination to conformity" is precisely the thing that makes Romans 2:6-7 achievable?

If not for the work of the Holy Spirit, assuring this transformation, we could never pass the Romans 2 judgement.

But because of the work of the Holy Spirit, that transformation is assured.

I see being transformed as a work of the Holy Spirit after we have been saved. It's a result of being filled with the Holy Spirit. Believers are the seed sown on good ground...we bring forth fruit in relation to how much we yield to the Spirit's pruning (mortifying of our flesh).

And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

As I pointed out in another thread...Matthew 25. The sheep are righteous because they are IN CHRIST.
The persistance in doing good is the fruit that will be shown to the world as proof of our justification by faith.

This verse is at the end of a long line of things the saints will be doing as a result of the Holy Spirit's guidance. We know them by their fruit...It isn't the fruit that saves us, it's our position in Christ. This is what Christ points out in Matt. 25. "Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?", the righteous won't even be aware they were showing forth fruit. We don't take credit for the fruit of the Spirit even at the end...it's but our reasonable service when we walk in obedience to our Father.

Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Faith not of themselves

Faith is not of themselves, it is included with the Gift Of Salvation and Eternal Life, it accompanies Salvation, and is no doubt what the writer of Hebrews had in mind when He wrote this Heb 6:9

9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

A Person cannot experientially have a knowledge of his Salvation, Election and Calling until he is born of God the Spirit whose fruit is Faith and Faithfulness [Eph 1:1], and so all men [mankind in general] have not this Faith [2 Thess 3:2]

2And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Faith is Given to God's Elect, His Sheep ! Scripture tells us it is the Gift of God, and not of ourselves, and Jesus Christ the Righteous is the Author and Finisher of it, and so it is properly called " The Faith of the Son of God " Gal 2:20

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

This implies that all for whom Christ gave Himself for shall receive His Faith, or the Faith of the Son of God !