Saved by Grace not of works !

[Drew]

I see being transformed as a work of the Holy Spirit after we have been saved.

I know that this is how you see things. However, I believe that Paul sees things differently and here, in a text that see as fundamentally incompatible within your model, he clearly asserts that whether we inherit eternal life depends on whether we "put to death misdeed" as empowered by the Spirit

for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

You seem sincere in your beliefs, so I believe that you read this text and do not see how it is clearly incompatible with your position. That is what is so fascinating about this issue - well-intentioned people such as yourself simply cannot accept the implications of certain texts for their positions.

I cannot for the life of me understand how the above statement does not clearly assert that "getting to live" is causally connected to how we actually live.

And yet you do not see this.

 

[francisdesales]

I'll address this first. There are two distinct groups of people here in Romans 8. Those who walk NOT after the flesh are those who walk after the Spirit (spiritual man). Those who walk after the flesh are the unsaved (carnal man).

You are adding to Scriptures what is not there. Those who walk after the flesh shall die. Nothing is mentioned about whether that person was saved or not. Paul clearly states that those who DO walk after the flesh are in danger of not entering the Kingdom. He addresses this to the "saved".

Just because one is "saved" twenty years ago doesn't make them saved now. One must persevere in faith working in love.

We see no condemnation for those who walk after the Spirit (spiritual man). Correct?

Same as above. WHILE we walk in the Spirit, we are saved for eternal life. That is how we know that Christ abides in us, our obedience to the Law of Christ. Not just because we say so.

Carnal man lives after the flesh, and shall die.

To include the "once saved" and "fell away" crowd.

Regards

 

[Drew]

You are adding to Scriptures what is not there. Those who walk after the flesh shall die. Nothing is mentioned about whether that person was saved or not. Paul clearly states that those who DO walk after the flesh are in danger of not entering the Kingdom. He addresses this to the "saved".

Correct. Romans 8 begins with that famous "there is therefore no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus". And then he goes on to explain why. And, of course, part of that is the way the Spirit enables to act in a way that commends us unto eternal life.

You are absolutely correct that "Paul clearly states that those who DO walk after the flesh are in danger of not entering the Kingdom". That is what this statement means!!!:

for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

I suspect you share my mystification at how those who deny the connection between how we live and eternal salvation somehow manage to live with this text.

Not to mention other texts like Romans 2:6-7.

 

[Drew]

You are adding to Scriptures what is not there. Those who walk after the flesh shall die. Nothing is mentioned about whether that person was saved or not.

Correct. This is clearly a distinction that is added to the text to force it to mean something other than what it obviously means.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

You are adding to Scriptures what is not there. Those who walk after the flesh shall die. Nothing is mentioned about whether that person was saved or not. Paul clearly states that those who DO walk after the flesh are in danger of not entering the Kingdom. He addresses this to the "saved".

Just because one is "saved" twenty years ago doesn't make them saved now. One must persevere in faith working in love.



Same as above. WHILE we walk in the Spirit, we are saved for eternal life. That is how we know that Christ abides in us, our obedience to the Law of Christ. Not just because we say so.



To include the "once saved" and "fell away" crowd.

Regards

One who has been "born-again by the Spirit" CANNOT lose their salvation, because they've been "sealed" by the Spirit for ALL eternity...Only those, who were truly NEVER saved to begin with, "fall away." 2 Corinthians 5:17 states, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." If ALL things are new, than they can no longer go back to being, "the old things." That's logical and God is a "logical" God...

 

[Sinthesis]

I know that this is how you see things. However, I believe that Paul sees things differently and here, in a text that see as fundamentally incompatible within your model, he clearly asserts that whether we inherit eternal life depends on whether we "put to death misdeed" as empowered by the Spirit

for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

You seem sincere in your beliefs, so I believe that you read this text and do not see how it is clearly incompatible with your position. That is what is so fascinating about this issue - well-intentioned people such as yourself simply cannot accept the implications of certain texts for their positions.

I cannot for the life of me understand how the above statement does not clearly assert that "getting to live" is causally connected to how we actually live.

And yet you do not see this.

Again you are incorrectly attributing causality even in your own example. The cause is by the Spirit. The effect is how we actually live. Further, "getting to live" is a gift given because we allowed the Spirit to put away our life "according to the flesh" by "putting to death the deeds of the body". This is accounted to us, but the cause is the Holy Spirit. How we actually live is only an indicator of the Holy Spirit's reign in us.

 

[Sinthesis]

Correct. Romans 8 begins with that famous "there is therefore no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus". And then he goes on to explain why. And, of course, part of that is the way the Spirit enables to act in a way that commends us unto eternal life.

You are absolutely correct that "Paul clearly states that those who DO walk after the flesh are in danger of not entering the Kingdom". That is what this statement means!!!:

for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

I suspect you share my mystification at how those who deny the connection between how we live and eternal salvation somehow manage to live with this text.

Not to mention other texts like Romans 2:6-7.

I agree that there is a connection between how we live and eternal salvation.
I disagree every time you assert that how we live is the cause or basis for eternal salvation.

If you understood Romans 2:6-7 you would see that Paul knows that our behavior is indicative of our promised eternal status rather than one's earthly racial status as Jew or Gentile.

 

[glorydaz]

You are adding to Scriptures what is not there. Those who walk after the flesh shall die. Nothing is mentioned about whether that person was saved or not. Paul clearly states that those who DO walk after the flesh are in danger of not entering the Kingdom. He addresses this to the "saved".

Just because one is "saved" twenty years ago doesn't make them saved now. One must persevere in faith working in love.



Same as above. WHILE we walk in the Spirit, we are saved for eternal life. That is how we know that Christ abides in us, our obedience to the Law of Christ. Not just because we say so.



To include the "once saved" and "fell away" crowd.

Regards

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. People don't fall out of Christ.

Why someone would deny that Jesus Christ is able to save HIS SHEEP to the UTTERMOST, I'll never know. For if one should fall into a hole, the Good Shepherd is ABLE to pull them out again.

But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Instead we see those who figure they'd better be able to climb out of that pit on their own. Interesting concept, but I don't trust man's ability as much as I trust the Lord. FYI...sheep are unable to pull themselves out of a pit. The good shepherd must lean down and pull them up.

 

[francisdesales]

One who has been "born-again by the Spirit" CANNOT lose their salvation, because they've been "sealed" by the Spirit for ALL eternity...Only those, who were truly NEVER saved to begin with, "fall away." 2 Corinthians 5:17 states, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." If ALL things are new, than they can no longer go back to being, "the old things." That's logical and God is a "logical" God...

You are incorrect.

Saul of the OT was "sealed by the Spirit" as well. Being sealed is a mark, a "tattoo", if you will. It does NOT indicate that you are guaranteed anything. God doesn't owe you something just because you have a "marking" or a "seal".

Indeed, the Scriptures themselves note that people CAN lose their initial salvation by walking in the flesh AFTER receiving the knowledge and salvation of Jesus Christ:

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first. For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2 Peter 2:20-21.

It would have been better never to have been 'saved' then to return to the vomit of our last fleshy life - which is quite possible, as above.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. People don't fall out of Christ.

Of course there is no condemnation for those NOW in Christ.

Fall away, and you are again walking in the flesh. You cannot deny this, we see examples of this in Christians all the time. We know we are in Christ AS WE OBEY the Commandments. Not just because of some event long ago. That is making a sham of salvation. It is not a "get out of hell free" card. Salvation is a relationship with God, one which CAN be broken by man, who in some cases, can return to the ways of the flesh. Those who walk in the flesh will die. There is no exception to those who make a one time declaration.

Why someone would deny that Jesus Christ is able to save HIS SHEEP to the UTTERMOST, I'll never know. For if one should fall into a hole, the Good Shepherd is ABLE to pull them out again.

He is able, but one can reject the offer.

Christians CAN grieve the Holy Spirit.

Instead we see those who figure they'd better be able to climb out of that pit on their own. Interesting concept, but I don't trust man's ability as much as I trust the Lord. FYI...sheep are unable to pull themselves out of a pit. The good shepherd must lean down and pull them up.

Who said anything about climbing out of the pit ourselves? AGain, you cannot just simply read what is written, from me or Sacred Writ. You have to add to it or twist things around. No one is climbing out of the pit themselves. But one must DESIRE to climb out. God will grant the necessary aid.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

One who has been "born-again by the Spirit" CANNOT lose their salvation, because they've been "sealed" by the Spirit for ALL eternity...Only those, who were truly NEVER saved to begin with, "fall away." 2 Corinthians 5:17 states, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." If ALL things are new, than they can no longer go back to being, "the old things." That's logical and God is a "logical" God...

Amen, Grubal. I'll add this one...

1 John 2:19 - "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

NO DOUBT...they were not of us or they would have continued with us. God doesn't play yo-yo with men. ;)

That's the difference between a professing Christian and a true believer. A true son of God is chastened as a son (even a prodigal son) until he returns. His return is guaranteed if he is a son of God. We are sealed with His Spirit.

 

[childeye]

I'd like to say walking in the Spirit is acting out of Love. Love will fulfill the law if acted upon. Hence we should not bury the talents given us as God expects usery. His Love is the grace we put our faith in. The works Paul is refering to is an obedience through the letter of the law rather than through the Eternal Spirit. The works James is refering to are works performed through the Eternal Spirit.

 

[childeye]

Amen, Grubal. I'll add this one...

1 John 2:19 - "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

NO DOUBT...they were not of us or they would have continued with us. God doesn't play yo-yo with men. ;)

That's the difference between a professing Christian and a true believer. A true son of God is chastened as a son (even a prodigal son) until he returns. His return is guaranteed if he is a son of God. We are sealed with His Spirit.

Well it appears you both contradicted yourselves on the freewill threads.

 

[glorydaz]

You are adding to Scriptures what is not there. Those who walk after the flesh shall die. Nothing is mentioned about whether that person was saved or not.

Correct. This is clearly a distinction that is added to the text to force it to mean something other than what it obviously means. Correct. This is clearly a distinction that is added to the text to force it to mean something other than what it obviously means.

Alright, I caught two birds with one stone.

Man in the flesh....not of God.

Man in the spirit...of God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Of course, if you can't see it, there's nothing left for me to do.

 

[glorydaz]

You are incorrect.

Saul of the OT was "sealed by the Spirit" as well. Being sealed is a mark, a "tattoo", if you will. It does NOT indicate that you are guaranteed anything. God doesn't owe you something just because you have a "marking" or a "seal".

Indeed, the Scriptures themselves note that people CAN lose their initial salvation by walking in the flesh AFTER receiving the knowledge and salvation of Jesus Christ:

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first. For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2 Peter 2:20-21.

It would have been better never to have been 'saved' then to return to the vomit of our last fleshy life - which is quite possible, as above.

Regards

Oh, so you have decided Saul wasn't saved in the end. Interesting since Samuel tells us otherwise.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

You are incorrect.

Saul of the OT was "sealed by the Spirit" as well. Being sealed is a mark, a "tattoo", if you will. It does NOT indicate that you are guaranteed anything. God doesn't owe you something just because you have a "marking" or a "seal".

Indeed, the Scriptures themselves note that people CAN lose their initial salvation by walking in the flesh AFTER receiving the knowledge and salvation of Jesus Christ:

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first. For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2 Peter 2:20-21.

It would have been better never to have been 'saved' then to return to the vomit of our last fleshy life - which is quite possible, as above.

Regards

Ephesians 1:13-14------In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, who is the "guarantee" of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. This Scripture in and of itself "disputes" what you say fran...

 

[savedbygrace57]

Now according to the Eternal Purpose and Grace given us in Christ before the world began, all God's Elect are saved by that Grace abd Purpose before the world began, and for this cause we are and shall be called with an Holy calling in God's Time 2 Tim 1:9 and Gal 1:15

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Or called me because of His Grace, that Grace given in Christ before the world began. This Salvation was finished at Christ's death Jn 19:30, and it was brought to light in His resurrection, hence all the elect were declared openly Justified by His resurrection Rom 4:25

25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

The Man Jesus Christ, the Son of God had Faith, for He had a promised outcome, thats why it is written Heb 12:2

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Scripture says Isa 53:10

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

He said on one occasion that He will Trust in God Heb 2:13

And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

The Children here are the seed in Isa 53:10; Rom 4:16 and Jesus promises that they shall Trust in God.

The Faith of the Son of God will be given to all His Seed Isa 53:10. This Faith was also given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob with all the OT Saints. All these Children shall receive a knowledge of their Salvation by Faith !

 

[glorydaz]

No one is climbing out of the pit themselves. But one must DESIRE to climb out. God will grant the necessary aid.

Regards

What, do you put suction cups on your litte sheep feet and then want it really really baaaaaaad?

On the serious side, you admit that God will grant the necessary aid when one of His children falls into a pit.
I'm certainly glad to hear you admit it. So, He is able to keep His sheep, isn't He? I was afraid for a minute there you were saying Jesus wasn't able.

He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

This should be a comfort to your soul. :nod

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

What, do you put suction cups on your litte sheep feet and then want it really really baaaaaaad?

On the serious side, you admit that God will grant the necessary aid when one of His children falls into a pit.
I'm certainly glad to hear you admit it. So, He is able to keep His sheep, isn't He? I was afraid for a minute there you were saying Jesus wasn't able.


This should be a comfort to your soul. :nod

Hey Glory, Hebrews 12:7 states, "If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?" This verse tells us, what happens with "believers" who go astray. This is how God deals with us true believers. We don't lose our salvation because we sin, we get "disciplined" by God...I know you believe this, but there are some on this thread that could possibly gain from this fact...The ones that "fall away" were never saved to begin with...Amen...

 

[glorydaz]

Indeed, the Scriptures themselves note that people CAN lose their initial salvation by walking in the flesh AFTER receiving the knowledge and salvation of Jesus Christ:

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first. For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2 Peter 2:20-21.

It would have been better never to have been 'saved' then to return to the vomit of our last fleshy life - which is quite possible, as above.

Regards

Interesting that you see salvation in that chapter of Peter.

FALSE TEACHERS BEGUILING UNSTABLE SOULS.

These poor unstable souls who are "clean escaped from the world" (they stopped going to the bar, and started going to church), and were "allured through the lusts of the flesh," and are beguiled by false prophets who have forsaken the right way. The true gospel message that, hey?

14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

They'r'e promised liberty by these same false prophets.

While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Is KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD salvation? Who knew God better than the Jews? How many unsaved people can quote scripture with the best of them?

Is KNOWING THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS salvation?

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire

Peter is talking here of the ones we see going to church and having their ears tickled with the message preached that Sunday. They turn back to the world the rest of the week without changing their ways from one Sunday to the next.

Knowing about Christ and knowing the way of righteousness is not salvation.