Bible Study Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works #1

[JLB]

Where did you get that idea?
All of mankind is created in God's image and likeness.
No one is exempt from the calling to be like God.
The most important attribute of God toward mankind is His mercy because all of mankind has sinned and the only hope of alll mankind is His mercy.
Those who strive to be like God by being merciful (loving one's neighbor) inherit the kingdom.
Those who do not strive to be like God go to hell.
That's what Jesus told ALL MANKIND (not just a select few) at Mat 25:31-46.
There is not one standard for the people you deem to be "His servants" and another for those whom you deem are not "His servants."

Has nothing to do with discussion, but is a dodge to the question.

By claiming the unfaithful servant is an unbeliever, you are teaching that unbelievers have been given the responsibility to serve His people, which are His servants.

Likewise this servant who became unfaithful started out as faithful because he was made "ruler" of His household.

JLB

 

[smaller]

Could we discuss the "work" of obedience in faith, and how the "work" or "action" or "effort" of obedience constitutes the activation of faith being living, or active.

Also can we discuss how faith comes to us, and what our part in the faith that comes to us from God?

I'm asking you, because you started this thread.

Thanks JLB

There is a notion that works originate only by the believer. This is not true.

Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1 Thessalonians 2:13
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

The "threshold" of works is not given in the scriptures other than as the most seemingly miniscule work will receive a reward that can not be lost.

Matthew 10:42
And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Would we say then that giving a cold cup of water is the work that gains salvation? Really? Uh, no. The reality is that every good work is from above. And that said work is from God, working in those who do them. Even with as little a work as the above.

IF God is implicated in "good works" which God certainly is, then for lack of same, do we denigrate God too? Of course not.

Then why erect work scales to begin with, to potentially damn believers? Suffice it to say that God will produce, as He pleases.

There are two certainties that will be found with every believer. That we all work both good and evil. Period. Having more of one and less of the other will not be the measure when both are a fact.

 

[JLB]

There is a notion that works originate only by the believer. This is not true.

I have never heard of the "notion", that works originate with the believer.

The works of faith, are works that God leads you do by His Spirit.

Living, active faith is doing what God tells you to do.

Dead faith is disobeying what God tells you to do.

Faith without this work of obedience is dead.

It's that simple.

The way we get faith is by hearing the spoken word or voice of God.

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:9

The idea of leaving his father's house and going to the promised land, in which God would make him a father of many nations, and through which the families of the earth would be blessed, was the plan of God, not of Abraham.

Obeying and following God, "by faith", isn't some abstract, intangible whim of man, but rather a simple obedience to His Voice... one step at a time.

One act of obedience at a time.

From faith to faith.



JLB

 

[smaller]

I have never heard of the "notion", that works originate with the believer.

The works of faith, are works that God leads you do by His Spirit.

Living, active faith is doing what God tells you to do.

Dead faith is disobeying what God tells you to do.

We've made this mutual observation prior:

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

The reality of any good work is that it is also accompanied, hand in hand, with the above fact.

Faith without this work of obedience is dead.

But some will see the futility of trying to weigh themselves only on one side of the equations of fact.

Evil present is never obedient, faithful or under God's Grace and Mercy in Christ.

Were it so easy to overlook the obvious.

 

[Jim Parker]

By claiming the unfaithful servant is an unbeliever, you are teaching that unbelievers have been given the responsibility to serve His people, which are His servants.

I did not claim anything of the sort.
The unfaithful servant is one who does not do God's will for him.
It has nothing to do with whom they serve.

Every person who ever lived, now lives and will live, is created in the image and likeness of God.
Whether any person believes or does not, he was created to do good works. (Eph 2:10)
It has nothing to do with "serving His people." (And I never said it did.) It has to do with doing what each of us was created to do.

At the judgment, the evidence which will unequivocally demonstrate who is and who is not going to inherit the kingdom is whether they showed mercy or did not practice mercy in imitation of God who is merciful.
Practiced mercy: inherit the kingdom.
Didn't practice mercy: go to hell.
That's what Jesus said in so many words. (Mat 25:31-46)

There is absolutely nothing about unbelievers serving "His people" anywhere in that passage.
It's a figment of your imagination.

 

[Jim Parker]

Can you start with addressing what I have already stated about His "servants" being the context of His teaching in the Olivet Discourse,

That is incorrect.
The context is the return of Christ.
The teaching of the discourse is that a wise and faithful servant will be found doing what his master told him to do when his master returns.
Whoever would be God's servant must have the wisdom to be faithful to the commands of Christ.
The passage culminates with Jesus stating explicitly that He will judge all of mankind based on what they did or did not do.

 

[smaller]

That is incorrect.
The context is the return of Christ.
The teaching of the discourse is that a wise and faithful servant will be found doing what his master told him to do when his master returns.
Whoever would be God's servant must have the wisdom to be faithful to the commands of Christ.
The passage culminates with Jesus stating explicitly that He will judge all of mankind based on what they did or did not do.

Or what God did or did not do?

There is no dividing God away from the equations.

Psalm 74:12
For God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth.

Ephesians 3:7
Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

1 Corinthians 12:6
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1 Thessalonians 2:13
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

It is virtually impossible from the perspectives of scripture to find any believer, standing alone in works on either side of the ledgers, good or bad. God IS working IN them who believe. It is equally pointless to see just the believer when that is not the case. Believers should have sense enough to know that God is with(in) them, working.

 

[JLB]

That is incorrect.
The context is the return of Christ.
The teaching of the discourse is that a wise and faithful servant will be found doing what his master told him to do when his master returns.
Whoever would be God's servant must have the wisdom to be faithful to the commands of Christ.
The passage culminates with Jesus stating explicitly that He will judge all of mankind based on what they did or did not do.

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51

‘My master is delaying his coming...

The King James uses the word Lord - kyrios: a direct reference to Jesus Christ.

This servant plainly refers to the Lord as his Master.

The Lord appointed or ordained one from among His servants to a position of responsibility, over His household, to care for his people.

That servant who later became unfaithful, and abused his fellow servants, and carouse with the ungodly, was... appointed his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.




Ok, so you disagree that the servant who was appointed by the Lord, to be a ruler of His house and to have the responsibility to take care of the Lord's people, was His [Jesus'] servant.

Can you tell me who's servant he was, if not the Lord's.



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Can you tell me who's servant he was, if not the Lord's.

The passage is a parable.
The servant and master in the parable refer to all servants and all masters.
Therefore, it is applicable to anyone who serves the LORD.

The point of the parable is that, even though the servant was appointed by the master to rule over his house, if that servant does not do his master's will, when the master returns and finds him to be unfaithful, that servant will be thrown out.
The application is; if a believer who serves the LORD quits doing his master's will, when the LORD returns, the unfaithful will be thrown out of the master's household which is eternal life in the kingdom of heaven.
The teaching is; that a believer must remain faithful to the LORD. An unfaithful servant will not inherit the kingdom when Jesus returns; he will be cast into hell.

So much for "once saved, always saved."

 

[JLB]

The passage is a parable.
The servant and master in the parable refer to all servants and all masters.

The context is about Jesus, who is Lord.

It's him who leaves His servants to take care of His people, who are fellow servants.

When He returns, He will judge those of His servants who remained faithful, and those who became unfaithful.

48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Here is the context:

42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. 45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:42-51


This servant plainly refers to the Lord as his Master.

The Lord appointed or ordained one from among His servants to a position of responsibility, over His household, to care for his people.

That servant who later became unfaithful, and abused his fellow servants, and carouse with the ungodly, was... appointed his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

The context is about Jesus, who is Lord.
It's him who leaves His servants to take care of His people, who are fellow servants.

That's putting more into the parable than is there.
There is no suggestion that the master of that parable is the LORD.
That parable is part of the passage which ends with Jesus' separation of the righteous (merciful) and the condemned (unmerciful.) This parable of a servant is followed by the parable of the 10 virgins and that is followed by the parable of the giving of the talents. In each parable, the faithful were rewarded for their faithfulness and the unfaithful were cast out because of their lack of faithfulness.
The passage is culminated by Jesus description of the judgment. He said that He will separate the blessed from the condemned according to whether they have been faithful witnesses of Him by showing mercy as God has shown mercy to all mankind.

To attempt to narrow the focus as applying only to those you deem to be the servants of the LORD and the master to the LORD, Himself, is to distort the teaching of the entire Olivet Discourse.

The teaching is that only those who are faithful to God, as demonstrated by their habitual actions, will inherit the kingdom. As Paul put it at Romans 2:6-11 (RSV) For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.

The Olivet Discourse is a teaching for all mankind that those who are faithful to do as Jesus' commanded (Love God; love one another; lover your neighbor) will inherit eternal life. Those who are not faithful will be "cast the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."

Jhn 12:47-50 (RSV)If any one hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has bidden me.

The Olivet Discourse is for all mankind to hear; to believe; to ct upon and be saved.

 

[JLB]

That's putting more into the parable than is there.
There is no suggestion that the master of that parable is the LORD.

42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. 45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:42-51

I see, so it's your view is, that the master in the parable is some other Lord who appoints the unfaithful servant with the hypocrites where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Can you show me some scriptures, where some other lord is able to, cut a person in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites... and sentence a person to the place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth?

• But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 8:12

• Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ Matthew 22:13

• There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. Luke 13:28

JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. 45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:42-51

I see, so it's your view is, that the master in the parable is some other Lord who appoints the unfaithful servant with the hypocrites where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Can you show me some scriptures, where some other lord is able to, cut a person in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites... and sentence a person to the place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth?

• But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 8:12

• Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ Matthew 22:13

• There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. Luke 13:28

JLB

Right. That changes nothing.

 

[Born Again 2004]

The grand prize in this world is our soul. But there is a pretty plan when you look at who God is. He is perfection in every aspect of his complex being. There are two forces at play in this physical life, two forces that are at constant battle for the ownership of our souls now and for all eternity; the battle between good and evil, between God and Satan.
Satin's plan is simple, do everything in his power to convince you that it takes your own works or that God doesn't exist.
So God in his wisdom and grand plan was designed to defeat Satan from the very beginning. Unlike Satin,God's plan is perfectly simple and fool proof, because it is by his design and action alone. It is from his grace alone and, since it is by his grace, it is by what He calls a "Free Gift" and if anyone sets his pride to the side and has the courage to take this gift, God as already won the battle for your soul because he has already predestined you to conform to the image of Jesus Christ.

 

[JLB]

Right. That changes nothing.

All you have to do to prove your point is show where "some other lord" has the authority to throw people into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:41-42

...the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:50-51


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Satin's plan is also simple, do everything in his power to convince you that it takes your own works or that God doesn't exist.

One very minor point; it's Satan. "Satin" is a fabric. "Satan" is the devil.
And without works, no one will be saved. James 2:14-26

 

[Jim Parker]

All you have to do to prove your point is show where "some other lord" has the authority to throw people into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

argh!
I can't show you what you don't want to see.

 

[JLB]

The grand prize in this world is our soul. This is pretty simple when you look at who God is. He is perfection in every aspect of his complex being. There are two forces at play in this physical life, two forces that are at constant battle for the ownership of our souls now and for all eternity; the battle between good and evil, between God and Satin.
Satin's plan is also simple, do everything in his power to convince you that it takes your own works or that God doesn't exist.
So God in his wisdom and grand plan was designed to defeat Satin from the very beginning. Unlike Satin,God's plan is perfectly simple and fool proof, because it is by his design and action. It is from his grace alone and, since it is by his grace, it is by what He calls a "Free Gift" and if anyone sets his pride to the side and has the courage to take this gift, God as already won the battle for your soul because he has already predestined you to conform to the image of Jesus Christ.

Would you like to comment on our discussion and the context, of Matthew 24;45-51?

Who do you believe the master who is coming, in this teaching, refers to, based on who was teaching and the words of the context?

42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. 45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:42-51


Who do you believe the master is, in verse's 48-51, who appoints the unfaithful servant with the hypocrites, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth?


JLB

 

[JLB]

argh!
I can't show you what you don't want to see.

I see that Jesus is the One who is coming.
I see Jesus is the Lord, who is teaching His disciples about His coming.
I see that Jesus is the One with the authority to appoint people with the hypocrites, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. 45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:42-51

Jesus is the master of the unfaithful servant, and sentences the unfaithful servant of His with the hypocrites.There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

I see that Jesus is the One who is coming.
I see Jesus is the Lord, who is teaching His disciples about His coming.
I see that Jesus is the One with the authority to appoint people with the hypocrites, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So so I.
That has nothing to do with the parable being about ONLY His servants to take care of ONLY His people, who are fellow servants. (According to your post #90)
We are Christ's servants who have been given the ministry of reconciling the world to God. (2Co 5:18-21) That includes God's servants and His enemies, not just our fellow servants.