Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[FreeGrace]

1 Corinthians 11 also speaks of those who profane the Lord's supper to be guilty of His body and blood. Is this true of a believer?

Of course it is. Paul affirms the Corinthian's saved status throughout his epistle to them. And those who profane the Lord's supper experienced weakness, sickness and even physical death for it. That's clear from the entire context in 1 Cor 11.

You seem to contradict yourself with your above thought. On one hand, no plain verses show that death is a form of discipline - yet you believe it is.

How about very plain and obvious examples of it that I've already given? Why aren't they being considered?

On the other hand, no plain verses show that salvation can be lost - yet you believe it cannot be.

You are correct; there are no plain verses show that salvation can be lost. I surely believe that to be true.

So, that's WHY I believe that it cannot be true.

Plus, all the plain verses about eternal security.

So you believe one thing for lack of 'plain' passages, yet believe in the other for lack of 'plain' passages?

I believe the first thing because of clear examples of it. I believe the second thing for lack of plain passages that claim salvation can be lost.

Pro 19:18
Discipline your son, for there is hope;
do not set your heart on putting him to death.

Discipline to avoid death.

Right. And when discipline isn't working, the end result will be death.

Gal 5:1-4
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Severed from Christ, fallen from grace. Unless, you think that salvation comes by another means other than Christ by His grace?

This verse has no relation at all to Eph 1:13,14. Totally different context, for one thing. And the marking IN HIM with a seal, the Holy Spirit, a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption is WHY Gal 5:1-4 cannot be referring to being un-marked, un-sealed, or un-saved.

So, what is it talking about? Severing fellowship.

We have an example of just such a thing. Jesus' parable of the prodigal, who severed fellowship with his father. He clearly did not sever his relationship with his father because Jesus continued to refer to the father as the father and the son as the son.

And even when the son was willing to be demoted from "sonship" to hired hand, the father interrupted the son so he couldn't express such an idiot idea.

 

[gr8grace3]

Of course it is. Paul affirms the Corinthian's saved status throughout his epistle to them. And those who profane the Lord's supper experienced weakness, sickness and even physical death for it. That's clear from the entire context in 1 Cor 11.


How about very plain and obvious examples of it that I've already given? Why aren't they being considered?


You are correct; there are no plain verses show that salvation can be lost. I surely believe that to be true.

So, that's WHY I believe that it cannot be true.

Plus, all the plain verses about eternal security.


I believe the first thing because of clear examples of it. I believe the second thing for lack of plain passages that claim salvation can be lost.


Right. And when discipline isn't working, the end result will be death.


This verse has no relation at all to Eph 1:13,14. Totally different context, for one thing. And the marking IN HIM with a seal, the Holy Spirit, a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption is WHY Gal 5:1-4 cannot be referring to being un-marked, un-sealed, or un-saved.

So, what is it talking about? Severing fellowship.

We have an example of just such a thing. Jesus' parable of the prodigal, who severed fellowship with his father. He clearly did not sever his relationship with his father because Jesus continued to refer to the father as the father and the son as the son.

And even when the son was willing to be demoted from "sonship" to hired hand, the father interrupted the son so he couldn't express such an idiot idea.

Lots of solid bible doctrine from you in the last couple pages! As always. Thanks.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

In salvation the "old man" ; who we were in Adam, our head in the realm of sin, is dead. The "old man", Adam's sin and our connection to him has been crucified with Christ. We were "released" from the "old man" when we received salvation. Ephesians 2:10 is God's creative work of salvation as it refers to each person created in Christ Jesus: 2 Corinthians 5:17, " Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold all things are become new." The separation from God, that Adam's sin brought, has been reversed through God's creative power in the body of Christ as we have seen from Ephesians 2:10.

Colossians 3:3, " For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God."
Colossians 3:9-10, " Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge, after the image of him that created". Having put off the old and being clothed: exchanging garments: God is the agent that brings about the "putting off and clothing", not we ourselves.

So, if we can lose our salvation we have to be able to undo the work that God has done to us and for us, through Christ Jesus. Are we so powerful that we can undo what God has done through and in Christ Jesus and resurrect the "old man".

It is my belief that we are eternally secure in Christ Jesus and can never lose our salvation. We can, however, affect our fellowship with God, but our being an heir with Christ and of the household of God is secure.

 

[gr8grace3]

dirtfarmer here

In salvation the "old man" ; who we were in Adam, our head in the realm of sin, is dead. The "old man", Adam's sin and our connection to him has been crucified with Christ. We were "released" from the "old man" when we received salvation. Ephesians 2:10 is God's creative work of salvation as it refers to each person created in Christ Jesus: 2 Corinthians 5:17, " Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold all things are become new." The separation from God, that Adam's sin brought, has been reversed through God's creative power in the body of Christ as we have seen from Ephesians 2:10.

Colossians 3:3, " For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God."
Colossians 3:9-10, " Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge, after the image of him that created". Having put off the old and being clothed: exchanging garments: God is the agent that brings about the "putting off and clothing", not we ourselves.

So, if we can lose our salvation we have to be able to undo the work that God has done to us and for us, through Christ Jesus. Are we so powerful that we can undo what God has done through and in Christ Jesus and resurrect the "old man".

It is my belief that we are eternally secure in Christ Jesus and can never lose our salvation. We can, however, affect our fellowship with God, but our being an heir with Christ and of the household of God is secure.

Superb stuff Farmer. Keep 'plowing' away.:yes

 

[Jethro Bodine]

According to Jesus, those who have believed have been given eternal life, which is the basis for never perishing.

You keep blatantly misquoting John 5:24 NASB as if we don't notice what you're doing. You keep changing "those who believe", which is in the present tense, to "those who have believed" in the past tense:

"he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB)

Jesus said him who presently believes has eternal life. But you keep changing it to 'him who believed in the past, but doesn't now, has eternal life'. You can't expect us to accept what you're doing as a valid defense of Hyper-grace OSAS. You can't just decide to change scripture to keep from being wrong about Hyper-grace OSAS.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:28 NASB)

It's real clear; He gives them eternal life, and they will never perish. Very direct, plain, and obvious.

You keep changing the condition for having eternal life (and thus, never perishing) from present believing to past tense believing that can stop. That directly contradicts what Jesus said in John 5:24 NASB. You can't just decide to change the passage to make it so people with past tense believing that has ended have eternal life. You can't just decide to change the passage that way. I'd be a liar if I told people Jesus said that people with past tense believing that has ended have eternal life. That's not what he said.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We know that WHEN one believes, according to Jesus (Jn 5:24), they HAVE (possess) eternal life. Right?

A person has eternal life not just at the moment they believe (that's not even in contention), but who also are now presently believing. The verb is in the present tense in John 5:24 NASB. You keep changing it to the past tense.

And we know that Jesus promises that those who have been given eternal life will never perish (Jn 10:28). Right?

And only those who are presently believing have that eternal life and, therefore, will never perish. But you changed John 5:24 NASB to past tense believing that can end to make it so the person who has stopped believing has eternal life too. And worse, you're doing that right under our noses and expect us to accept what you're doing.

 

[Nathan]

2

1 Corinthians 11:32 But if we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined, in order that we will not be condemned with the world.

1 Corinthians 11:29-30 For the one who eats and drinks, if he does not recognize the body, eats and drinks judgment against himself. Because of this, many are weak and sick among you, and quite a few have died.
​

Swapping passages around, underlining words, does not make Paul say something that is not true.

If we are judged by Him, it is done in discipline so that we are not condemned with the world. What is the condemnation of the world? Death.

Proverbs 23:13 (ESV)
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.

 

[FreeGrace]

Lots of solid bible doctrine from you in the last couple pages! As always. Thanks.

You're quite welcome!

 

[FreeGrace]

dirtfarmer here

So, if we can lose our salvation we have to be able to undo the work that God has done to us and for us, through Christ Jesus. Are we so powerful that we can undo what God has done through and in Christ Jesus and resurrect the "old man".

It is my belief that we are eternally secure in Christ Jesus and can never lose our salvation. We can, however, affect our fellowship with God, but our being an heir with Christ and of the household of God is secure.

This is really the bottom line. We cannot un-do what God has done for us. Jesus said so in John 10:28-29.

Fellowship is a key factor in the NT, as it is in EVERY relationship. Fellowship is the "state" of the relationship. Our relationship with God can be on the right track, or the wrong track. We know this from Eph 4:30 and 1 Thess 5:19 that speaks of grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit. There's no fellowship when that's the situation.

Instead, we need to be filled with the Spirit and walking by means of the Spirit, per Eph 5:18 and Gal 5:16. This is what fellowship means and is.

Great post!

 

[Nathan]

Of course it is. Paul affirms the Corinthian's saved status throughout his epistle to them. And those who profane the Lord's supper experienced weakness, sickness and even physical death for it. That's clear from the entire context in 1 Cor 11.


How about very plain and obvious examples of it that I've already given? Why aren't they being considered?


You are correct; there are no plain verses show that salvation can be lost. I surely believe that to be true.

So, that's WHY I believe that it cannot be true.

Plus, all the plain verses about eternal security.


I believe the first thing because of clear examples of it. I believe the second thing for lack of plain passages that claim salvation can be lost.


Right. And when discipline isn't working, the end result will be death.


This verse has no relation at all to Eph 1:13,14. Totally different context, for one thing. And the marking IN HIM with a seal, the Holy Spirit, a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption is WHY Gal 5:1-4 cannot be referring to being un-marked, un-sealed, or un-saved.

So, what is it talking about? Severing fellowship.

We have an example of just such a thing. Jesus' parable of the prodigal, who severed fellowship with his father. He clearly did not sever his relationship with his father because Jesus continued to refer to the father as the father and the son as the son.

And even when the son was willing to be demoted from "sonship" to hired hand, the father interrupted the son so he couldn't express such an idiot idea.

I think you passed over the part in 1 Corinthians 11 where those who partake in a frivolous manner are guilty of the body and blood of Jesus?

1Co 11:27
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.

Of course the Galatians passage is different than the Ephesians one - their in different letters Paul wrote. However, they do have a relation to each other because Paul wrote them, and he would not contradict himself. If you took Ephesians and Galatians in context, then you would see that they do not contradict each other.

Are you aware of what circumcision is? It is when actual flesh is cut away. It is taken off the body. It no longer is apart of the body. The flesh is not just removed from fellowship with the body - it is dead flesh.

The parable of the prodigal son has zero to do with this. Paul is very clear, the one who looks to the law(any law) for their justification has been severed from Christ - fallen from grace - obligated to keep the entire law - and Christ is no advantage to them. You cannot get any clearer than this. Mankind has a choice, Christ or himself. You cannot have both.

Gal 5:1-6
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

Paul reiterates the statement twice. This is done so that the Galatians would not downplay this statement - think that Paul does not really mean what he says. It is emphatic, if you turn to works - you turn from Christ - you are cut off.

Exo 31:14
You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

 

[chessman]

Then what was Jesus guaranteeing in John 10:28 about those He gives eternal life?

Anti-seizure medicine.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"According to Jesus, those who have believed have been given eternal life, which is the basis for never perishing."

You keep blatantly misquoting John 5:24 NASB as if we don't notice what you're doing.

How in the world could one who QUOTES the verse be "misquoting" the verse? Does does that work? Please clarify.

You keep changing "those who believe", which is in the present tense, to "those who have believed" in the past tense:

"he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB)

Jesus said him who presently believes has eternal life.[/QUOT]
This is just straining at gnats. The point of Jn 5:24 is that WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life. That means they HAVE eternal life WHEN they initially believed. Or do you disagree?

It seems from your comments here, the giving of eternal life is on-going, somehow. If that's your view, please explain, because it seems to me that your view of receiving eternal life is no different than a hose with a steady stream. As long as the faucet is "turned on", the water flows. But the moment the faucet is "turned off", the flow ceases, and there is no more water.

So, is that your view of the gift of eternal life? Seeing eternal life as water coming out of a hose, which can be "shut off"?

But you keep changing it to 'him who believed in the past, but doesn't now, has eternal life'.

This not a "misquote", as you've mis-labeled it. It's my conclusion, which doesn't come from Jn 5:24, but from Jesus' promise in Jn 10:28, along with Paul's description of God's gifts, one of which is eternal life, with the fact that God's gifts are irrevocable and Peter's teaching that we have been born again of imperishable seed.

All of that together means that once eternal life is received (but NOT as water coming out of a hose) one will never perish.

You can't expect us to accept what you're doing as a valid defense of Hyper-grace OSAS.

My defense is of biblical truth. What you'd rather call it is your own business. But it is clear to me that your view of God's grace is unbiblical.

There NEVER can be "too much" of God's grace. We all need ALL of God's grace.

The grace that saves is the same grace that keeps.

You can't just decide to change scripture to keep from being wrong about Hyper-grace OSAS.

I've not changed Scripture. I've pointed out WHERE eternal security is taught.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
""28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:28 NASB)

It's real clear; He gives them eternal life, and they will never perish. Very direct, plain, and obvious."

You keep changing the condition for having eternal life (and thus, never perishing) from present believing to past tense believing that can stop.

Maybe all my posts that have pointed out the use of the aorist tense for 'believe' and being "marked IN HIM with a seal" were missed. But that's not my problem.

Your attempt to force the present tense into something it ISN'T is an abuse of that tense. Since the Bible uses BOTH the aorist and present tense for salvation, your treatment of the present tense is shown to be in error.

I'm being charged with "changing" or "misquoting" Scripture, yet your claims redefine the present tense to mean something IT DOES NOT MEAN.

That directly contradicts what Jesus said in John 5:24 NASB.

This is a claim that cannot be proven. Here's the verse:
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Jesus promised that those who believe experience 3 things:
1. has eternal life
2. will not be judged
3. has crossed over from death to life.

Your view has one who possesses eternal life, which is why Jesus said they have crossed over from death to life, can ultimately die again.

That is totally unbiblical, and I make that statement because there are NO VERSES that teach such a thing. It's only an opinion that has no support from Scripture.

The present tense for 'believes' doesn't mean these 3 things are "present" ONLY AS LONG AS one keeps on believing, which seems to be your view.

Here's the cold hard facts of what Jesus said in Jn 5:24 -
1. as a result of presently believing,
2. one HAS, possesses, receives eternal life
3. one will NOT BE judged
4. one has crossed from death to life.

The obvious fact is that when one receives God's gift of eternal life, they CANNOT perish. Period. Why is that fact being dismissed?

You can't just decide to change the passage to make it so people with past tense believing that has ended have eternal life.

Please STOP abusing the present tense and START acknowledging the aorist tense.

You can't just decide to change the passage that way. I'd be a liar if I told people Jesus said that people with past tense believing that has ended have eternal life. That's not what he said.

No, He didn't say that. He did say that those who presently, or RIGHT NOW, are believing, WILL NEVER PERISH, WILL NOT BE JUDGED.

He said basically the very same thing in John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Here, we see CLEARLY that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

Notice what He did NOT SAY: I keep on giving them eternal life (like water dripping out of a hose) and AS LONG AS I keep the hose on, they will never perish.

But, if your view was correct, that's exactly what He would have said.

Jesus NAILED eternal security in Jn 10:28. From simply receiving eternal life, the receiver WILL NEVER PERISH.

That's a promise, a guarantee, of NEVER PERISHING.

Peter believed that because he explained that we have been born again of IMPERISHABLE seed.

There are zero verses that teach that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. None.

 

[Nathan]

dirtfarmer here

In salvation the "old man" ; who we were in Adam, our head in the realm of sin, is dead. The "old man", Adam's sin and our connection to him has been crucified with Christ. We were "released" from the "old man" when we received salvation. Ephesians 2:10 is God's creative work of salvation as it refers to each person created in Christ Jesus: 2 Corinthians 5:17, " Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold all things are become new." The separation from God, that Adam's sin brought, has been reversed through God's creative power in the body of Christ as we have seen from Ephesians 2:10.

Colossians 3:3, " For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God."
Colossians 3:9-10, " Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge, after the image of him that created". Having put off the old and being clothed: exchanging garments: God is the agent that brings about the "putting off and clothing", not we ourselves.

So, if we can lose our salvation we have to be able to undo the work that God has done to us and for us, through Christ Jesus. Are we so powerful that we can undo what God has done through and in Christ Jesus and resurrect the "old man".

It is my belief that we are eternally secure in Christ Jesus and can never lose our salvation. We can, however, affect our fellowship with God, but our being an heir with Christ and of the household of God is secure.

Your absolutely correct dirtfarmer. The trouble with the whole eternal security debate is that people have missed the point that we are eternally secure in Christ - but we are not eternally secure apart from Christ.

It is in Christ that we are a new creation. You will never find that we are that new creation outside of Christ. We are reconciled to God in Christ - as so apart from Him, we are not reconciled.

It is through faith that this reconciliation happened - it is through faith that grace comes to us. If someone turns from the faith, then they turn from salvation. They don't 'undo' what God has done, they cast it aside as if it is worthless.

The 'old man' is still there. We are to consider that life as dead - but we know it is still there. That is why we are so cautioned about returning to the deeds of the flesh. If the 'old man' was truly non existent, then there would be no possible way to return to works of the flesh.

Rom 6:12-14
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

If it were not possible to turn away from Christ, then Paul would have no reason to write such things as he does above. What is clear, is that we have choices to make - some result in life, others in death.

 

[FreeGrace]

A person has eternal life not just at the moment they believe (that's not even in contention), but who also are now presently believing.

And...the present tense says NOTHING ABOUT THE FUTURE. So your point is moot.

The verb is in the present tense in John 5:24 NASB. You keep changing it to the past tense.

No, I've sided with the WHOLE COUNSEL OF SCRIPTURE. And the aorist tense is used for believing and being marked with a seal.

Please stop abusing the present tense and trying to force it so say what it DOES NOT SAY.

And only those who are presently believing have that eternal life and, therefore, will never perish.

That's NOT what it either says or means. This is just a continued abuse of the present tense.

I'm being charged with "changing" verses, yet here is an OBVIOUS example of doing it yourself!! Just note the inserted "only" word in your statement. Where do we EVER find the use of that word in Scripture? Your bias against the aorist tense is shown clearly.

Where is your explanation for the aorist tense in Luke 8:12, Acts 16:31, Rom 10:9 for 'believing' and Eph 1:13 for being marked in Him with a seal?

But you changed John 5:24 NASB to past tense believing that can end to make it so the person who has stopped believing has eternal life too.

I've pointed out correctly the meaning of the future for one who is presently believing. They have eternal life, they will NOT be judged, and they have passed from spiritual death to eternal life.

The present tense NEVER suggests on-going action into the future, which is what you're trying to force it to do.

And worse, you're doing that right under our noses and expect us to accept what you're doing.

Please cease abusing the present tense and start acknowledging the aorist tense, which ignores duration of time.

 

[FreeGrace]

A person has eternal life not just at the moment they believe (that's not even in contention), but who also are now presently believing. The verb is in the present tense in John 5:24 NASB. You keep changing it to the past tense.

They received eternal life WHEN they believed. Or is there another view on WHEN one receives eternal life? Please share.

And only those who are presently believing have that eternal life and, therefore, will never perish.

Other than abusing the present tense and CHANGING it's meaning to what it NEVER MEANT, please provide ANY Scripture that actually teaches that if one stops believing, they stop having eternal life.

Absent that, there isn't a shred of support for your views from Scripture.

But you changed John 5:24 NASB to past tense believing that can end to make it so the person who has stopped believing has eternal life too. And worse, you're doing that right under our noses and expect us to accept what you're doing.

Once a person receives eternal life, they will never perish. That is Jesus' promise in Jn 10:28 and Jn 5:24.

But some will call that hyper-grace, as if there can be too much of a good thing. Sad.

 

[FreeGrace]

I think you passed over the part in 1 Corinthians 11 where those who partake in a frivolous manner are guilty of the body and blood of Jesus?

Nope. Not true.

1Co 11:27
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.

This is what led Paul to describe God's discipline that includes weakness, sickness and physical death in v.30.

Paul reiterates the statement twice. This is done so that the Galatians would not downplay this statement - think that Paul does not really mean what he says. It is emphatic, if you turn to works - you turn from Christ - you are cut off.

Those saved people who turn from Christ ARE cut off from fellowship. Not salvation, as being ASSUMED. They are grieving (Eph 4:30) the Spirit and quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.

Exo 31:14
You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Apparently you're not aware of the meaning of 'cut off' in this passage. Just carefully read the sentence before the last one. "shall be put to death". That's what being "cut off" means.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Then what was Jesus guaranteeing in John 10:28 about those He gives eternal life?"

Anti-seizure medicine.

lol. And all this time I thought it was a guarantee of never perishing. Silly me.

 

[FreeGrace]

Your absolutely correct dirtfarmer. The trouble with the whole eternal security debate is that people have missed the point that we are eternally secure in Christ - but we are not eternally secure apart from Christ.

No, the real trouble is the opinion that one who has been marked IN HIM with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, per Eph 1:13 can be un-sealed, un-marked. That is unbiblical.

It is in Christ that we are a new creation.

Then by applying your 'reasoning', one can become an old creation again. Where is that taught?

You will never find that we are that new creation outside of Christ.

There is a very simple reason why not. Because it's NOT POSSIBLE for one who has been marked and sealed to EVER be "outside of Christ".

We are reconciled to God in Christ - as so apart from Him, we are not reconciled.

Thanks for reminding me. I'll add that to my list of what CANNOT BE un-done.
1. un-marked
2. un-sealed
3. un-saved
4. un-reconciled

If it were not possible to turn away from Christ, then Paul would have no reason to write such things as he does above. What is clear, is that we have choices to make - some result in life, others in death.

The argument isn't about the possibility of turning away. The Bible speaks of apostates and Jesus noted a soil that believed for a while. The argument is what it means to turn away. It's about loss of fellowship and loss of blessings and losss of rewards, and the fact of painful discipline from God.