Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Jim Parker]

People often focus on works, when Christ wants the focus on Him.

There seems to me to be a concerted effort among evangelical Protestant churches to convince people to ignore works. The Pentecostal church I attended for 18 years taught that works were what Catholics do trying to earn salvation. That is, of course, a lie. (A damned lie, in fact.) And I heard the same line from other Protestant churches I visited.
Bonhoeffer called it "cheap grace", Christianity without discipleship.

People often focus on works, when Christ wants the focus on Him.

Our aim is to be like Christ, to imitate Him, to be a faithful disciple who does what his master commands.
We are to be disciples who are as much like Christ as we are able to be. To settle for less is to be merely a fan.
Jesus didn't call anyone to be a fan. He said to "make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all things that I have commanded you". (Mat 28:18-19)

There seems to be a concerted effort to stop believers at the "fan" stage and to prevent them from becoming "disciples" and to
prevent them from attaining "to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ". (Eph 4:13)

Now who do you think might to keep that from happening? Satan? Maybe?

I don't know for sure but, I sure get push-back every time I say believers need to obey Christ and "do the good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them". Why come that be so?


iakov the fool

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

Matthew 25:31-46 has nothing to do with the judgment of the body of Christ, the Church, but is about the judgment of nations. Sin has already been judged by Christ on the cross and the sin of unbelief is what condemns a person.

1 John 2:2, " And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world."

At the "Bema seat" of Christ, those that will be judged there, is not to determine destination, but rewards. Our destination after death is determined while we are alive physically. If we accept Christ and his sacrifice, we become a member of his body, and are translated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of his dear Son. We are saints and of the household of God. We will be in the first resurrection. Those in that resurrection, the second death has no power over. Those that will be at the great white throne judgment will be judged to determine the degree of punishment in the lake of fire.

 

[dirtfarmer]

There seems to me to be a concerted effort among evangelical Protestant churches to convince people to ignore works. The Pentecostal church I attended for 18 years taught that works were what Catholics do trying to earn salvation. That is, of course, a lie. (A damned lie, in fact.) And I heard the same line from other Protestant churches I visited.
Bonhoeffer called it "cheap grace", Christianity without discipleship.

Our aim is to be like Christ, to imitate Him, to be a faithful disciple who does what his master commands.
We are to be disciples who are as much like Christ as we are able to be. To settle for less is to be merely a fan.
Jesus didn't call anyone to be a fan. He said to "make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all things that I have commanded you". (Mat 28:18-19)

There seems to be a concerted effort to stop believers at the "fan" stage and to prevent them from becoming "disciples" and to
prevent them from attaining "to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ". (Eph 4:13)

Now who do you think might to keep that from happening? Satan? Maybe?

I don't know for sure but, I sure get push-back every time I say believers need to obey Christ and "do the good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them". Why come that be so?


iakov the fool

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

Ephesians 2:10 doesn't say that we are to " do the good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." It states that "we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works" Who is it that does the work? We are God's workmanship in Christ Jesus. The later phrase states that we are to walk in those good works. It is not us that does the work but Christ Jesus and we are to walk in the works that Jesus does; not do the work ourselves.

The word walk in Ephesians 2:10 is "peripatesomen" walk. In 1 John 1:7 we have " walk in the light" the word walk is "peripatomen" both from the same word.
I ask this: if walk in Ephesians is "do", then is walk in 1 John "do". If it is, then how do we do light as we "do work"? We can't "do light" nor can we do good works. We have to walk, not do, in the work that God created in Christ Jesus by faith.

 

[gr8grace3]

dirtfarmer here

Matthew 25:31-46 has nothing to do with the judgment of the body of Christ, the Church, but is about the judgment of nations. Sin has already been judged by Christ on the cross and the sin of unbelief is what condemns a person.

1 John 2:2, " And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world."

At the "Bema seat" of Christ, those that will be judged there, is not to determine destination, but rewards. Our destination after death is determined while we are alive physically. If we accept Christ and his sacrifice, we become a member of his body, and are translated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of his dear Son. We are saints and of the household of God. We will be in the first resurrection. Those in that resurrection, the second death has no power over. Those that will be at the great white throne judgment will be judged to determine the degree of punishment in the lake of fire.

Solid truth. Thanks

 

[gr8grace3]

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

Ephesians 2:10 doesn't say that we are to " do the good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." It states that "we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works" Who is it that does the work? We are God's workmanship in Christ Jesus. The later phrase states that we are to walk in those good works. It is not us that does the work but Christ Jesus and we are to walk in the works that Jesus does; not do the work ourselves.

The word walk in Ephesians 2:10 is "peripatesomen" walk. In 1 John 1:7 we have " walk in the light" the word walk is "peripatomen" both from the same word.
I ask this: if walk in Ephesians is "do", then is walk in 1 John "do". If it is, then how do we do light as we "do work"? We can't "do light" nor can we do good works. We have to walk, not do, in the work that God created in Christ Jesus by faith.

Excellent.

 

[FreeGrace]

You do not believe someone can forsake Christ?

Yes, I do believe that, because the Bible says so. Jesus gave an example in His parable of the soils (#2). And Paul wrote about many who will fall away from the faith in end times, in 1 Tim 4.

What I don't believe is that one who ceases to believe is somehow removed from the status of being "sealed IN HIM with the Spirit" per Eph 1:13.

There are no verses that teach such a thing. In fact, Eph 1:1314 teach eternal security, in plain language.

So, even those who forsake Christ continue to be a child of God, but now under the heavy hand of His discipline.

Does a good parent kill their own child for rebellion? Of course not. Neither does God. He disciplines His children, sometimes to the point of simply taking them home. And make no mistake; God's discipline is painful. Heb 12:11.

So no one gets away with anything, in spite of the apparent opinion of those who advocate for loss of salvation. That goes against everything the Bible teaches.

1Co 10:1-13
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.” We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Take heed lest you fall.

Correct. Many of those saved Jews died in the desert for their continued faithlessness. There is nothing in 1 Cor 10 or in the actual account in the OT that says or even suggests that they lost salvation, or never had it.

Also note; they didn't die peacefully in their sleep. Confirming Heb 12:11.

That is why Paul twice (v.6, 11) said they (Exodus generation) were an example for us (NT believers). They are an example of how God deals with rebellious children. Painful discipline that may include physical death.

 

[FreeGrace]

You cannot survive by just eating one meal. You can not survive spiritually by just eating of Christ one time.

I wasn't discussion physical food. Of course no one survives from one meal. But your application to the spiritual realm is refuted by the very words of Jesus, when evangelizing the woman at the well in John 4:
14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

The tense for "drinks the water I give" is aorist. That means a simple occurrence, or a point in time action. Not continuing or on-going action.

The seed that you were born of produces fruit in you. If that plant dies, no fruit is produced. Luke 8 talks about this.

In fact, only 1 soil didn't produce a plant (#1). All the rest did produce plants from the seeds that fell. But only 1 soil produced fruit.

You cannot perish if you are in Christ. You will perish if you are not in Christ.

The on-going assumption is that one who has been "marked IN HIM with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit GUARANTEEING our inheritance for the day of redemption" (Eph 1:1314) can somehow (undescribed anywhere in Scripture) can be removed from being IN HIM.

So, where is the clear evidence of this supposed removal? If being removed from being IN HIM were possible, then v.13,14 are basically meaningless. There is no GUARANTEE of our inheritance, and the "day of redemption" means nothing.

A promise is a promise. God cannot lie, per Heb 6:18.

1Jo 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

All who have believed have the Son and eternal life. All who have never believed do not have either the Son, nor eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Why do you keep using Jesus in a negative way, stating that if something you don't believe in is true then He lied?

I'm trying to make the point that if salvation could be lost, for any reason, then how can John 10:28 be true? And no one will answer this.

Jesus was clear; those who receive eternal life will never perish. That's a promise. So, how can one who has received eternal life, later on, for any reason, perish? That goes directly against His promise.

John 10:28 specifically states that His sheep are the ones who have eternal life.

Correct. His sheep are believers.

You know you are His sheep when you follow Him.

I know I'm one of His sheep because I've believed in Him, or as Jesus Himself said it, "enter through Me", referring to faith in Him.

This is what John 10:28 is all about. You cannot build a whole doctrine on this, ruling out the rest of the Bible, and stating that anything that opposes your view makes Jesus a liar.

Did Jesus say that those who receive eternal life will never perish?

Interesting, stating one persons challenge is bogus - yet issuing another challenge of the same(but opposite) manner.

Unbelief turns you away from the mark, seal, savior, birthright, justification. You cannot have those things if you do not believe in them.

I think you've missed the entire point of Eph 1:13,14. Those who, having believed (aorist) HAVE all these things.

So, where is the passage that plainly teaches that ceasing to believe removes the mark, seal, birthright, or justification?

Gal 5:2-4
Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

This verse is about fellowship. Just like the prodigal who severed himself from his father.

Do you feel you are justified by the law? Do you know that being justified by the law means you believe that something you did is what brings/gives you your justification?

No. Yes. In that order.

So a person who thinks that they are justified because they believed at one point in time, is basing their justification on their action of belief.

Please study the aorist tense. I think it will help understand the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace]

You don't have to dismiss it. What he said is true.

I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me John 10:14 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. Mt. 10:27

Jesus knows his own sheep. They do not fall away. He gives them eternal life.

I believe the Bible is clear about those who have believed cannot fall away from salvation, but they sure can fall away from faithfulness.

If you view the ones given to him by the Father as a subset of the called (For many are called, but few are chosen Mt. 24:13), and the elect as those who hold the highest offices ie. apostles, prophets, teachers; these would be difficult if not impossible to dislodge, given they are held in the Father's hand. Hence Jesus' statement that no one can snatch them out of the Father's hand. John 10:28-29

Is this a suggestion or claim that John 10:28 is only about those who hold the highest offices?? Please clarify.

The gospel is not one size fits all. He who has ears, let him hear.

This can sure be taken in a variety of ways. Some will say there are more than one way to heaven. So be careful of what you say.

The gospel is clear and narrow. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Acts 16:31
Jesus said He was The Way, The Truth, and The Life. And that no man comes to the Father except by Him. John 14:6

 

[FreeGrace]

There is no argument that as long as you have eternal life you're not going to perish (John 10:28 NASB). That's not even a point of contention.

Well, it seems to be.

What is in contention is you're telling us that Jesus did not really mean it when he said the person who has eternal life is the one who believes:

"24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB bold)

Not hardly. The point of Jn 5:24 is that WHEN one believes they HAVE (as in posssess) eternal life. Or do you disagree?

The real point of contention is the assumption that one who has been "marked IN HIM with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, a deposit GUARANTEEING our inheritance for the day of redemption for God's own possessions (Eph 1;1314) can somehow, mystically, magically be undone. There are no verses that teach the undoing of any of God's actions towards any who have believed but later, for any reason, rebel, cease to believe, etc. That is the fact.

btw, if there were any conditions whereby anyone could be removed from being "marked IN HIM with a seal, the Spirit", why would Jesus make no mention of that in John 10:28, where He directly promised that those who RECEIVE eternal life will never perish?

From John 5:24, we know that WHEN one believes in Christ, they HAVE (possess) eternal life. So, that means the moment one believes they are given eternal life. And the promise in Jn 10:28 is that those ones will never perish.

That is plain language of eternal security. Simply, those who have been given eternal life will never perish.

How could Jesus make this promise if there were conditions that could undo all that God does for those who believe?

You keep insisting that we ignore what Jesus said in favor of what your doctrine teaches.

Absolutely not!! Jesus told us that WHEN we believe we HAVE eternal life. And He promises that those He gives eternal life will never perish. Eternal security could not be stated more clearly.

That's called un-rightly dividing the word of God. You have to include ALL of the word of God when forming doctrine.

The fact is, there is no Scripture that refutes any other Scripture. But that's what I'm seeing from the view about losing salvation.

If Hyper-grace included all the word of God it would be forced to concede that Jesus himself said the person who has eternal life is the one who believes, not the person who doesn't believe.

Since the Bible uses the aorist tense for 'believe' I fully agree with this statement.

But, let me take your challenge and point it towards your view: if your view included all the word of God, it would be forced to concede that Jesus Himself guaranteed (promised) that those who have been given eternal life will never perish.

Ready to concede?

 

[FreeGrace]

And, FreeGrace, just to save time, here's my response to the Hyper-grace argument that you are going to post again and which will not include an explanation of John 5:24...

I've been citing and quoting that verse from the beginning, to show WHEN one receives the gift of eternal life.

So, your argument is that we just ignore what Jesus said in John 5:24 NASB and that Jesus didn't really mean what he said there that it is the person who believes that has eternal life, right?

No, I've never suggested that we ignore anything that Jesus said, or anything else in Scripture.

I have advocated for the promise that Jesus makes in Jn 10:28 about those who have been given eternal life never perishing.

We know that WHEN one believes, according to Jesus (Jn 5:24), they HAVE (possess) eternal life. Right?

And we know that Jesus promises that those who have been given eternal life will never perish (Jn 10:28). Right?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Was Jesus serious when He promised those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28?"

Of course he was.
Are you serious in asking that question?

Of course I am. Jesus promised that those who receive eternal life will never perish. That is eternal security, yet there are those who reject eternal security and claim that a saved person can end up perishing.

That is why I asked the question.

It reminds me of the "surveys" I get from time to time. All the questions are rigged to steer the person taking the survey toward the results the surveyors want to see.
Are you willing to take ALL of scripture into account and not just the cherry-picked out of context bits that support OASA?

Is this a suggestion that there are other verses that somehow change the clear meaning of Jn 10:28 to not mean eternal security? That some who were given eternal life may in fact perish?

Now, let me ask you: Are you serious in that conclusion?

Here's the only issue: can one who has been given eternal life ever perish? Please provide support for your answer from Scripture

Jesus also said, "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6)
The fact that Jesus stated the consequences of not remaining in Him requires the collateral fact that it is possible not to remain in Him.
Those who do not remain in Him end up in the fire. (Hell)

Did not Jesus promise that those He gives eternal life (which is WHEN they believe, per Jn 5:24) WILL NEVER PERISH? JN 10:28

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you believe it is possible for a person to be saved and later totally abandon, forsake, and deny Christ and the salvation offered and then turn to worship Satan?

As disgusting as this sounds, we have to consider the promise Jesus made about those He gives eternal life: they will never perish.

If there were any reason for one who has been given eternal life to perish, then why didn't Jesus make that clear when He made His promise?

He gave no conditions beyond simply receiving eternal life. It would have been negligent to leave out anything that could result in perishing. And Jesus clearly was never negligent.

 

[Nathan]

Yes, I do believe that, because the Bible says so. Jesus gave an example in His parable of the soils (#2). And Paul wrote about many who will fall away from the faith in end times, in 1 Tim 4.

What I don't believe is that one who ceases to believe is somehow removed from the status of being "sealed IN HIM with the Spirit" per Eph 1:13.

There are no verses that teach such a thing. In fact, Eph 1:1314 teach eternal security, in plain language.

So, even those who forsake Christ continue to be a child of God, but now under the heavy hand of His discipline.

Does a good parent kill their own child for rebellion? Of course not. Neither does God. He disciplines His children, sometimes to the point of simply taking them home. And make no mistake; God's discipline is painful. Heb 12:11.

So no one gets away with anything, in spite of the apparent opinion of those who advocate for loss of salvation. That goes against everything the Bible teaches.


Correct. Many of those saved Jews died in the desert for their continued faithlessness. There is nothing in 1 Cor 10 or in the actual account in the OT that says or even suggests that they lost salvation, or never had it.

Also note; they didn't die peacefully in their sleep. Confirming Heb 12:11.

That is why Paul twice (v.6, 11) said they (Exodus generation) were an example for us (NT believers). They are an example of how God deals with rebellious children. Painful discipline that may include physical death.

Discipline is not capable in death. Death, in all its forms, eliminates the possibility of discipline.

No where does the Bible state that those who forsake Christ continue to be a child of God.

Isa 1:27-28
Zion shall be redeemed by justice,
and those in her who repent, by righteousness.
But rebels and sinners shall be broken together,
and those who forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

 

[Nathan]

All who have believed have the Son and eternal life. All who have never believed do not have either the Son, nor eternal life.

Why change what the verse says??? What verse are you quoting?

1Jo 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Discipline is not capable in death.

I don't understand this statement. Discipline can include death. That is biblical, as has been shown.

Death, in all its forms, eliminates the possibility of discipline.

It's the ultimate discipline. And one can be assured it won't be gentle.

No where does the Bible state that those who forsake Christ continue to be a child of God.

No where does the Bible state that those who forsake Christ are discontinued from being a child of God.

That's not even possible in the physical realm, so why assume it would be true in the spiritual realm?

Further, Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life (which is WHEN they believe, per Jn 5:24) will never perish. Jn 10:28

That's eternal security stated plainly.

 

[Nathan]

I'm trying to make the point that if salvation could be lost, for any reason, then how can John 10:28 be true? And no one will answer this.

Jesus was clear; those who receive eternal life will never perish. That's a promise. So, how can one who has received eternal life, later on, for any reason, perish? That goes directly against His promise.


Correct. His sheep are believers.


I know I'm one of His sheep because I've believed in Him, or as Jesus Himself said it, "enter through Me", referring to faith in Him.


Did Jesus say that those who receive eternal life will never perish?

Interesting, stating one persons challenge is bogus - yet issuing another challenge of the same(but opposite) manner.


I think you've missed the entire point of Eph 1:13,14. Those who, having believed (aorist) HAVE all these things.

So, where is the passage that plainly teaches that ceasing to believe removes the mark, seal, birthright, or justification?


This verse is about fellowship. Just like the prodigal who severed himself from his father.


No. Yes. In that order.


Please study the aorist tense. I think it will help understand the Bible.

I have studied the aorist tense. It is multifaceted, and very ambiguous - which means we cannot use it as a foundation for our truth, but take the rest of the Bible as a whole to understand the truth. In other words - just pulling a single verse out, and building a faith on top of a Greek word tense, will guarantee a house that will fall.

Jhn 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Here is the explanation of that verse. In Christ we have eternal life. In Christ we will not perish. In Christ we cannot be taken from Him by anyone else.

Here is what the verse does NOT say - Christ gives us life apart from being in Him.

Seriously, look at the verse - the complete context is in Christ!

Many will say to Him on that day "I did this, or I did that". Our confidence should never rest in what we did, but in where we are. It is foolish to put your trust into something you did, rather than in being in Christ.

1Jo 3:9-10
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Do you know of any passages that teach us to trust in what we do, or have done, rather than trusting in Christ?

 

[Nathan]

I don't understand this statement. Discipline can include death. That is biblical, as has been shown.


It's the ultimate discipline. And one can be assured it won't be gentle.


No where does the Bible state that those who forsake Christ are discontinued from being a child of God.

That's not even possible in the physical realm, so why assume it would be true in the spiritual realm?

Further, Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life (which is WHEN they believe, per Jn 5:24) will never perish. Jn 10:28

That's eternal security stated plainly.

No, its impossible for discipline to include death. Death eliminates the possibility of discipline by the very definition. You cannot train something if it is unable to respond.

I've showed you where it does state that to forsake God is to forsake being His child, and He will turn and be our enemy. Will you show where He does not turn to be the enemy of the one who forsakes Him?

Isa 63:10
But they rebelled
and grieved his Holy Spirit;
therefore he turned to be their enemy,
and himself fought against them.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have studied the aorist tense. It is multifaceted, and very ambiguous - which means we cannot use it as a foundation for our truth, but take the rest of the Bible as a whole to understand the truth. In other words - just pulling a single verse out, and building a faith on top of a Greek word tense, will guarantee a house that will fall.

Jhn 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Here is the explanation of that verse. In Christ we have eternal life. In Christ we will not perish. In Christ we cannot be taken from Him by anyone else.

Here is what the verse does NOT say - Christ gives us life apart from being in Him.

Seriously, look at the verse - the complete context is in Christ!

Many will say to Him on that day "I did this, or I did that". Our confidence should never rest in what we did, but in where we are. It is foolish to put your trust into something you did, rather than in being in Christ.

1Jo 3:9-10
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Do you know of any passages that teach us to trust in what we do, or have done, rather than trusting in Christ?

Re the aorist tense...

GO NATHAN!

I've been saying this forever. But why check it out?

Better to build a doctrine around a tense and some sporatic verses that have nothing to do with the teachings of the NT.

 

[chessman]

Death eliminates the possibility of discipline by the very definition. You cannot train something if it is unable to respond.

Scripture to support your view here???

1 Peter 4:6 Because for this reason also the gospel was preached to those who are dead, so that they were judged by human standards in the flesh, but they may live in the spirit by God’s standards. ​

The reason death IS the ultimate suffering of discipline for a Christian Son of God is that their (our) sin has ceased and so that they live in the Spirit by God's standards (sinless) as per His Word (never perishing). Poof, the death of a Son of God IS discipline.

1 Peter 4:1-2 Therefore, because Christ suffered in the flesh, you also equip yourselves with the same way of thinking, because the one who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, in order to live the remaining time in the flesh no longer for human desires, but for the will of God.​