Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[FreeGrace]

I have studied the aorist tense. It is multifaceted, and very ambiguous - which means we cannot use it as a foundation for our truth, but take the rest of the Bible as a whole to understand the truth.

I am truly sorry for your inability to understand the aorist tense. I've repeatedly explained what it means. Was any of that ambiguous? Or "multi-faceted"?

In other words - just pulling a single verse out, and building a faith on top of a Greek word tense, will guarantee a house that will fall.

So, basically, is this just a dismissal of that tense, even though it's used in numerous passages about "believing for salvation"?

Jhn 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Here is the explanation of that verse. In Christ we have eternal life. In Christ we will not perish. In Christ we cannot be taken from Him by anyone else.

But the underlying insinuation from the rest of your posts is that one who has received eternal life can still perish, right? Yet, that goes directly against Jn 10:28.

So, your view about losing salvation is based on the presupposition that one who has been marked in Him with a seal, the Holy Spirit, can somehow be:
un-marked
un-sealed
un-saved.

OK. Where does the Bible speak of these un-doings?

Here is what the verse does NOT say - Christ gives us life apart from being in Him.

I agree. And I haven't found any evidence that one who has been marked, sealed, and saved, can be
un-marked
un-sealed
un-saved.

Seriously, look at the verse - the complete context is in Christ!

I have actually noticed that. And, I have also noted that Eph 1:13 and 14 says that being marked in Him with the seal is a GUARANTEE of our inheritance (eternal security) and the reason for being marked in HIm with a seal is for the day of redemption (eternal security).

Do you know of any passages that teach us to trust in what we do, or have done, rather than trusting in Christ?

No, because there aren't any. The ONLY thing that we can do is place our trust in Christ to save us. And He does.

In fact, He promises that those He gives eternal life will never perish, in John 10:28. (eternal security)

 

[FreeGrace]

No, its impossible for discipline to include death. Death eliminates the possibility of discipline by the very definition. You cannot train something if it is unable to respond.

Then please explain the death of the ENTIRE first generation of the Exodus, save 2 (Joshua and Caleb), AND, why Paul said twice (v.6 and 11) that they (first generation of the Exodus) are 'examples for us'.

Please explain what this example is about, if not suffering leading to physical death for extended disobedience?

And, include an explanation of what Paul meant in 1 Cor 11:30 about being weak, sick, and physical death.

I've showed you where it does state that to forsake God is to forsake being His child, and He will turn and be our enemy. Will you show where He does not turn to be the enemy of the one who forsakes Him?

Isa 63:10
But they rebelled
and grieved his Holy Spirit;
therefore he turned to be their enemy,
and himself fought against them.

Your claim is that "to forsake God is to forsake being His child". Yet this verse says nothing about forsaking being His child.

So, no, you've not shown me any such thing. But I will wait patiently for any verse that does so state.

 

[FreeGrace]

Better to build a doctrine around a tense and some sporatic verses that have nothing to do with the teachings of the NT.

Every verse I've quoted regarding the aorist tense and believing is found in the NT, so your comment is strange indeed.

It seems the NT verses I've quoted "have nothing to do with the teachings of the NT", in your opinion. That is contradictory.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well, it seems to be.

No one is arguing this point: IF you possess eternal life you will never perish.

What you are ignoring is the whole counsel of God which says that presently believing people are the ones who have eternal life and will never perish:

"he who hears My word, and believes (present tense) Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB)

You're telling us to ignore what Jesus said above and are unrightly dividing John 10:28 NASB away from the above passage in order to make it appear that you do not have to be presently believing in order to have eternal life:

"28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:28 NASB)

From the whole counsel of scripture we know that the one who never perishes and who can not be snatched out Jesus' hand is the one who believes, not the one who does not presently believe. But Hyper-grace doctrine is teaching people in the church that even people who no longer believe will never perish.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have also noted that Eph 1:13 and 14 says that being marked in Him with the seal is a GUARANTEE of our inheritance

Nobody is arguing that.
What is in contention is your doctrine that claims that the guarantee means you will always have the Holy Spirit, instead of what the whole counsel of scripture teaches, which is you have the guarantee of the inheritance as long as you have the seal of the Spirit. For some reason in Hyper-grace doctrine, 'sealed' mean 'not able to be unsealed' in the Bible. It has to redefine that term in order to support it's false doctrine.

 

[GodsGrace]

Every verse I've quoted regarding the aorist tense and believing is found in the NT, so your comment is strange indeed.

It seems the NT verses I've quoted "have nothing to do with the teachings of the NT", in your opinion. That is contradictory.

The teachings of the NT Do NOT include eternal security.
I haven't forgotten about sanctification.
Need my computer...

 

[FreeGrace]

No one is arguing this point: IF you possess eternal life you will never perish.

The false argument is that one, from having believed, being marked IN HIM with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a GARANTEE of our inheritance, for the day of redemption, can somehow be:
un-marked
un-sealed
un-saved

for any reason.

I would like to see any verses that speak directly to these things done by God that plainly tells us they any of them can be un-done by God, or even the person him/herself.

What you are ignoring is the whole counsel of God which says that presently believing people are the ones who have eternal life and will never perish:

This is an abuse of the present tense. It means "current action", not on-going action. And I refer back up to my challenge for any verse that speaks of:
un-marking
un-sealing
un-saving

anyone for any reason.

"he who hears My word, and believes (present tense) Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB)

The use of the aorist tense, meaning a point in time, or a simple occurrence, for 'believe to be saved' refutes the notion that one must continuously believe in order to be saved. That's just not true.

The point of Jn 5:24 is that WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life.

Now, combine that with the promise of Jesus in Jn 10:28 whereby those He gives eternal life will never perish.

iow, the promise of never perishing is based solely on receiving the gift of eternal life, which is only obvious because Paul taught that God's gifts are irrevocable, after describing eternal life as a gift of God.

So, the conclusion should be clear. One who has believed in Christ HAS eternal life, and because it's an irrevocable gift, will never perish.

Peter agrees with eternal security, because he wrote that we have been born again of imperishable seed, in 1 Pet 1:23.

So Jesus, Paul and Peter all agree about how to never perish: receive eternal life.

You're telling us to ignore what Jesus said above and are unrightly dividing John 10:28 NASB away from the above passage in order to make it appear that you do not have to be presently believing in order to have eternal life:

How in the world can anyone remove eternal security from the promise of Jesus in that verse?

"28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:28 NASB)

It's real clear; He gives them eternal life, and they will never perish. Very direct, plain, and obvious.

Those who have been given eternal life will never perish. A promise from Jesus. Demonstrating that He not only saves, but He keeps saved.

From the whole counsel of scripture we know that the one who never perishes and who can not be snatched out Jesus' hand is the one who believes, not the one who does not presently believe.

No, we do NOT know that from Scripture. This is just an abuse of the present tense.

But Hyper-grace doctrine is teaching people in the church that even people who no longer believe will never perish.

According to Jesus, those who have believed have been given eternal life, which is the basis for never perishing.

 

[FreeGrace]

Nobody is arguing that.
What is in contention is your doctrine that claims that the guarantee means you will always have the Holy Spirit, instead of what the whole counsel of scripture teaches, which is you have the guarantee of the inheritance as long as you have the seal of the Spirit.

Where is this supposed verse that says "as long as you have the seal of the Spirit". In fact, if that were true, then Paul would have said exactly that!! So, where did he write what is being proposed here?

He didn't, because it isn't true. If any NT believer can lose the Holy Spirit, why didn't any of the NT writers ever say so?

For some reason in Hyper-grace doctrine, 'sealed' mean 'not able to be unsealed' in the Bible. It has to redefine that term in order to support it's false doctrine.

OK, if one can be:
un-sealed
un-marked
un-saved
please provide the verses that say so.

 

[FreeGrace]

The teachings of the NT Do NOT include eternal security.

Then what was Jesus guaranteeing in John 10:28 about those He gives eternal life?

 

[GodsGrace]

Then what was Jesus guaranteeing in John 10:28 about those He gives eternal life?

We are guaranteed eternal life IN JESUS.
Jesus is the life.
If we are in Him, we are guaranteed eternal life.

OUT of Jesus we are NOT guaranteed eternal life because we do not have the life.
Jesus said "I am the life. He who BELIEVES in Me, though he dies, he will live forever...."
FG, Believe means now, at the moment.

How could it possibly be an action that goes on forever when Jesus told us plainly what we must do to be sanctified?

If He made such a point of teaching us HOW to be members of the Kingdom,
And we LEAVE the Kingdom, are we still saved?

 

[GodsGrace]

FreeGrace
We have posted 2 Peter 2 and Hebrews 6 many times.

You cannot accept the simple truth.

I fear for those reading along who are being mislead as to what Jesus expects from us.
As you posted from the Christian encyclopedia re sanctification, it DOES require our cooperation.
God will not sanctify us unless we want to be and that requires our cooperation.

After all, we are not robots,,,we retain our free will even after salvation.

 

[Nathan]

Scripture to support your view here???

1 Peter 4:6 Because for this reason also the gospel was preached to those who are dead, so that they were judged by human standards in the flesh, but they may live in the spirit by God’s standards. ​

The reason death IS the ultimate suffering of discipline for a Christian Son of God is that their (our) sin has ceased and so that they live in the Spirit by God's standards (sinless) as per His Word (never perishing). Poof, the death of a Son of God IS discipline.

1 Peter 4:1-2 Therefore, because Christ suffered in the flesh, you also equip yourselves with the same way of thinking, because the one who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, in order to live the remaining time in the flesh no longer for human desires, but for the will of God.​

Your asking me to provide Scriptural support for the plain definitions given by words used? Look up any passage that uses the word discipline, then show me one that lists death as a form of discipline. You wont find it. So I am supposed to provide evidence to show that something does not exist?

If you find a passage that states death is a form of discipline, I would love to see it. All I know is all the passages that talk about discipline speak of it in a manner that trains the person receiving it - and such while they still live. In fact, here is one that speaks of discipline in order that the man will not die.

Pro 5:23
He dies for lack of discipline,
and because of his great folly he is led astray.

 

[Jim Parker]

Is this a suggestion that there are other verses that somehow change the clear meaning of Jn 10:28 to not mean eternal security?

That verse does not teach eternal security.
We've been over this about a dozen times.
OSAS is heresy.
It's the invention of Calvinists.
It is NOT the teaching of scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

We are guaranteed eternal life IN JESUS.
Jesus is the life.
If we are in Him, we are guaranteed eternal life.

There are no "ifs" about this in the Bible. As "if" we can somehow slip out of Jesus.

OUT of Jesus we are NOT guaranteed eternal life because we do not have the life.

That would be EVERYONE who never believed.

But it is only an assumption, maybe a presumption, to think that one who has been marked IN HIM with a seal, the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit GUARANTEEING our inheritance for the day of redemption, can be
un-sealed
un-marked
un-saved.

In the context of Eph 1:13,14, and 4:30, where is any verse that speaks of un-doing any of these things?

I would be interested in what this phrase means to you: "marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption of those who are God's possession."

Jesus said "I am the life. He who BELIEVES in Me, though he dies, he will live forever...."
FG, Believe means now, at the moment.

So what? I know it does. And people are saved by a single occurrence of belief, which is the aorist tense.

What the present tense DOES NOT MEAN is on-going action. It means "current". But one is saved from a single occurrence of belief, or what Paul said to the jailer wasn't correct.

How could it possibly be an action that goes on forever when Jesus told us plainly what we must do to be sanctified?

Maybe you've confused positional sanctification, which is permanent union with Christ (Eph 1:13,14) with progressive sanctification, per Phil 2:12 and "working out your salvation"?

If He made such a point of teaching us HOW to be members of the Kingdom,
And we LEAVE the Kingdom, are we still saved?

Where did Jesus or any other writer of Scripture ever teach about how to leave the kingdom??

I'm getting a lot of opinions and presumptions, but nothing which includes Scripture that says what is being claimed.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace
We have posted 2 Peter 2 and Hebrews 6 many times.

How about 1 Pet 1:23? Do you understand what it means to be born again of imperishable seed? Seems not.

You cannot accept the simple truth.

This is a direct violation of TOS. Stop making unfounded judgments about what I believe or not.

I fear for those reading along who are being mislead as to what Jesus expects from us.

How have I misled anyone? I've quoted directly from Jesus, Paul and Peter about eternal life. Please clarify.

As you posted from the Christian encyclopedia re sanctification, it DOES require our cooperation.

Yes, progressive sanctification, which is spiritual growth.

 

[FreeGrace]

Your asking me to provide Scriptural support for the plain definitions given by words used? Look up any passage that uses the word discipline, then show me one that lists death as a form of discipline. You wont find it.

This is not a legitimate request. The very said could, and has, been charged to your side about specific words that say salvation can be lost. Everyone knows that there are no such verses.

However, 1 Cor 11:30 provides a clear indication of God's discipline, which DOES include physical death. Note the context; abuse of the Lords' Table. For that, "many are weak and sickly, and a number sleep."

So I am supposed to provide evidence to show that something does not exist?

I believe that is the exact point. There are no verses that in plain language that salvation can be lost.

 

[FreeGrace]

O said this:
"Is this a suggestion that there are other verses that somehow change the clear meaning of Jn 10:28 to not mean eternal security?"

That verse does not teach eternal security.

Then please explain what Jesus WAS teaching when He promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish. He gave no "conditions", such as "as long as..." or any other way to indicate a condition to be met before one will never perish. It was all based on receiving eternal life.

But since you disagree, please explain what Jesus was teaching.

We've been over this about a dozen times.
OSAS is heresy.

Your opinion.

It's the invention of Calvinists.

They actually got this one right. But probably not for the correct reason. Because their understanding of election is incorrect.

It is NOT the teaching of scripture.

Jesus made it clear, whether or not one accepts it in John 10:28.

Paul made it clear in Romans where he described 3 specific gifts that are from God (spiritual gifts 1:11, justification 3:24, 5:15,16,17, and eternal life 6:23) BEFORE He taught that God's gifts are IRREVOCABLE. And He did NOT exclude any of the specific gifts he had already described. So they ARE part of the context for 11:29.

Peter made it clear in 1 Pet 1:23 when he wrote that we are born again of imperishable seed.

So, please explain how a new life that has been born again of imperishable seed can perish.

If a saved person can indeed perish, for any reason, then Peter's point is meaningless. But nothing in the Bible is meaningless. He was telling us that we will never perish, because we have been born again of imperishable seed.

The same thing Jesus taught when He said those Hw gives eternal life will never perish.

The same thing Paul taught about God's gifts being irrevocable, and eternal life is one of those gifts.

 

[Nathan]

This is not a legitimate request. The very said could, and has, been charged to your side about specific words that say salvation can be lost. Everyone knows that there are no such verses.

However, 1 Cor 11:30 provides a clear indication of God's discipline, which DOES include physical death. Note the context; abuse of the Lords' Table. For that, "many are weak and sickly, and a number sleep."


I believe that is the exact point. There are no verses that in plain language that salvation can be lost.

1 Corinthians 11 also speaks of those who profane the Lord's supper to be guilty of His body and blood. Is this true of a believer? Paul never states that death is a form of discipline - only punishment. I have already shown that discipline is done by God in order for the person receiving the discipline to be trained by it - and not die.

You seem to contradict yourself with your above thought. On one hand, no plain verses show that death is a form of discipline - yet you believe it is. On the other hand, no plain verses show that salvation can be lost - yet you believe it cannot be. So you believe one thing for lack of 'plain' passages, yet believe in the other for lack of 'plain' passages?

Pro 19:18
Discipline your son, for there is hope;
do not set your heart on putting him to death.

Discipline to avoid death.

Gal 5:1-4
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Severed from Christ, fallen from grace. Unless, you think that salvation comes by another means other than Christ by His grace?

 

[Jim Parker]

1 Corinthians 11 also speaks of those who profane the Lord's supper to be guilty of His body and blood. Is this true of a believer?

No one but a believer would be allowed to partake of the LORD's supper.
But, of course, you didn't know that.

 

[chessman]

Paul never states that death is a form of discipline - only punishment.

1 Corinthians 11:32 But if we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined, in order that we will not be condemned with the world.

1 Corinthians 11:29-30 For the one who eats and drinks, if he does not recognize the body, eats and drinks judgment against himself. Because of this, many are weak and sick among you, and quite a few have died.
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