Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Nathan]

Nope. Not true.


This is what led Paul to describe God's discipline that includes weakness, sickness and physical death in v.30.


Those saved people who turn from Christ ARE cut off from fellowship. Not salvation, as being ASSUMED. They are grieving (Eph 4:30) the Spirit and quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.


Apparently you're not aware of the meaning of 'cut off' in this passage. Just carefully read the sentence before the last one. "shall be put to death". That's what being "cut off" means.

So let me get this straight - you do not believe what Paul wrote about those who partake in an unworthy manner is not true????

1Co 11:27
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.

Do you really think that Paul was not serious here?

 

[Nathan]

There is a very simple reason why not. Because it's NOT POSSIBLE for one who has been marked and sealed to EVER be "outside of Christ".

The argument isn't about the possibility of turning away. The Bible speaks of apostates and Jesus noted a soil that believed for a while. The argument is what it means to turn away. It's about loss of fellowship and loss of blessings and losss of rewards, and the fact of painful discipline from God.

You have no proof, or have not shown it, that to turn away from Christ - to apostate - is a loss of fellowship only. There are countless passages that speak of a person being outside of Christ. Christ was standing at the door of the Laodicean church - where was He? How can He knock if they are in Him?

Rev 3:20-21
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

The serpent lied about death to Adam and Eve - was that just a loss of fellowship?

Gen 3:4-5
But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Once a person receives eternal life, they will never perish. That is Jesus' promise in Jn 10:28 and Jn 5:24.

Jesus' promise in John 5:24 NASB is conditioned on present believing, but you keep ignoring that without explaining why you do that. You leave me no choice but to conclude that Freegrace doctrine can not explain how Jesus says that it is he who "believes" (present tense) that has eternal life while it insists that is not necessary to believe (present tense) to have eternal life.

"he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB bold)

They received eternal life WHEN they believed. Or is there another view on WHEN one receives eternal life? Please share.

There is no argument that a person receives eternal life the moment they believe. The argument is that person, if they stop believing, does not satisfy Jesus' promise in John 5:24 NASB that it is "he who...believes (present tense) Him who sent Me has eternal lie" and, therefore, does not possess the eternal life they once had when they first believed. They're not satisfying the additional requirement to be presently believing to have eternal life. You keep blowing off Jesus' own promise that it is the presently believing person that has eternal life and you keep bullying us with your unexplained insistence that the person who no longer presently believes has eternal life, which is completely contradictory to Jesus' own words.

 

[FreeGrace]

So let me get this straight - you do not believe what Paul wrote about those who partake in an unworthy manner is not true????

I cannot even begin to answer this question I get something straight: where in the world did your question come from? Certainly not from anything I've posted. How would anyone come to such a far out conclusion.

What I did point out is that those Corinthian believers who were abusing the Lord's Table were suffering God's discipline, which, from v.30, included weakness, sickness and physical death.

How could anyone reach your apparent conclusion from this?

1Co 11:27
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.

Do you really think that Paul was not serious here?

He was DEAD SERIOUS. Which is why he then said this:
That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

The words "that is why..." explains what happened to those who abused the Lord's Table (eats/drinks in an unworthy manner).

It appears you're just not following the discussion.

 

[FreeGrace]

You have no proof, or have not shown it, that to turn away from Christ - to apostate - is a loss of fellowship only.

Quite the opposite, actually. No one has shown otherwise, that to turn away means or even results in loss of salvation.

And I explained from cited Scripture the condition of the believer who does turn away; they are grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit. This is about loss of fellowship, not loss of salvation. No one has shown otherwise.

There are countless passages that speak of a person being outside of Christ.

All of them refer to being out of fellowship. The reason is clear; from Eph 1:13,14 we KNOW that having believed, one is marked IN HIM with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit which guarantees our inheritance for the day of redemption.

How in the world can that refer to anything other than eternal security? Please answer.

Christ was standing at the door of the Laodicean church - where was He? How can He knock if they are in Him?

Please don't use metaphors and literalize them. It does no good.

Rev 3:20 is about fellowship, once again. The key is WHY Jesus was knocking; to come in AND EAT WITH HIM AND HE WITH ME.

That's NOT salvation by a long stretch. That's exactly what fellowship is about.

Rev 3:20-21
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

The serpent lied about death to Adam and Eve - was that just a loss of fellowship?

Gen 3:4-5
But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”[/QUOTE]
These verses have no relevance to Rev 3:20.

Every where the Bible indicates loss of fellowship is misconstrued to mean loss of salvation.

Which isn't possible, since Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

iow, those who possess eternal life will never perish.

So, for all the OSNAS types, where are ANY verses that tell us that eternal life can be revoked, lost, given away, etc?

As long as this debate has raged, NO ONE has ever found any such verse.

Besides, in John 10:28 Jesus made NO CONDITIONAL comments to ensure never perishing. To never perish is solely dependent upon receiving eternal life.

Once eternal life is received, one will never perish. That's another way to express what Jesus promised.

But since there is so much disagreement, please explain within Jn 10:28 where Jesus added any supposed conditional clauses?

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus' promise in John 5:24 NASB is conditioned on present believing, but you keep ignoring that without explaining why you do that.

OK, let's just get this over with and face the real meaning of the present tense, not the abuse that you've presented. Your explanation forces the present tense to be MUCH MORE than just current believing. You've forced it to mean to "keep on currently believing", which turns the present tense into some kind of other tense, which it is NOT.

You've taken a current action and forced it to mean on-going out into the future. So, please consult any Greek grammar text and determine whether the present tense EVER means that.

From Dan Wallace's Greek Grammar: Beyond the Basics, on p.514:
"With reference to aspect, the present tense is internal (that is, it portrays the action from inside of the event, without special regard for beginning or end), but it makes no comment as to fulfillment (or completion)."

This is why Jesus used the present tense in Luke 8:13 regarding the 2nd soil who 'believed for a while'. This PROVES that the present tense doesn't mean on-going in any sense.

So, until you're up to speed on the real meaning of the present tense, there is no use for any further discussion about it. I'm tired of having to keep on correcting your misunderstanding of it. It's pointless.

You leave me no choice but to conclude that Freegrace doctrine can not explain how Jesus says that it is he who "believes" (present tense) that has eternal life while it insists that is not necessary to believe (present tense) to have eternal life.

This is just flat wrong. The point of John 5:24 is about those who now (present tense) believe will not be judged, or condemned, but have passed from death to life.

This is no different than Jesus' promise that those He gives eternal life will never perish in Jn 10:28.

But, again, you're abusing the present tense.

"he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB bold)

You've mistranslated this verse to read thusly:
"he who hears My word, and KEEPS ON BELIEVING Him who sent Me, has eternal life, AND AS LONG AS HE KEEPS ON BELIEVING, will not come into judgment, and will pass out of death into life"

The red words in caps represents your faulty understanding of the present tense. It NEVER means that.

Your mistranslated reading includes conditional clauses that Jesus NEVER added.

There is no argument that a person receives eternal life the moment they believe.

That is the point of John 5:24. Thank you for noticing. And from that FACT, we understand from Jn 10:28 that those who have received eternal life will never perish. That's a direct and clear promise.

So, to never perish is the result of receiving eternal life.

The argument is that person, if they stop believing, does not satisfy Jesus' promise in John 5:24 NASB that it is "he who...believes (present tense) Him who sent Me has eternal lie" and, therefore, does not possess the eternal life they once had when they first believed.

This faulty conclusion is refuted directly by Jesus' promise in 10:28. To never perish is dependent ONLY ON receiving eternal life.

Your misunderstanding would lead to this rendition of John 10:28 -
I give them eternal life, AND AS LONG AS THEY KEEP ON BELIEVING, they will never perish.

Again, the red words represent the faulty understanding of the present tense, and how one stays saved.

But Jesus made no such conditional statements. He was direct and blunt. He gives them eternal life and they will never perish. Eternal security.

They're not satisfying the additional requirement to be presently believing to have eternal life.

There are no "additional requirements" as you're doing. The verses are quite clear, but since you've totally misunderstood the present tense, you're not able to understand these verses properly.

You keep blowing off Jesus' own promise that it is the presently believing person that has eternal life and you keep bullying us with your unexplained insistence that the person who no longer presently believes has eternal life, which is completely contradictory to Jesus' own words.

This has been refuted repeatedly. And your faulty understanding of the present tense has been shown.

Jesus based His promise of never perishing on simply receiving eternal life in John 10:28. But your ideas add conditional clauses that are NOT in the Bible.

John 5:24 is not about those who KEEP ON BELIEVING. But those who currently believe, or believe NOW. There is NO suggestion from the present tense that they will KEEP ON BELIEVING. That is your own made up idea. It is NOT what the Greek present tense means.

 

[Nathan]

I cannot even begin to answer this question I get something straight: where in the world did your question come from? Certainly not from anything I've posted. How would anyone come to such a far out conclusion.

What I did point out is that those Corinthian believers who were abusing the Lord's Table were suffering God's discipline, which, from v.30, included weakness, sickness and physical death.

How could anyone reach your apparent conclusion from this?


He was DEAD SERIOUS. Which is why he then said this:
That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

The words "that is why..." explains what happened to those who abused the Lord's Table (eats/drinks in an unworthy manner).

It appears you're just not following the discussion.

I think you are missing the point - the person who partakes in an unworthy manner is guilty of the blood and body of Christ. Maybe you do not realize this, but to be guilty of the body and blood of Christ puts you in the same place/category as unbelievers.

It is by Christs body and blood we are found innocent - to then turn around and be found guilty of it puts you back into the place of condemnation.

Heb 10:29
How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

Christ's body was given for our healing - the people who were partaking of the Lord's supper were doing so without regards to Him, therefore they were sick, weak, and dying/dead. Not discipline - punishment. Sadly there will be a great number of people who end up eternally away from God because they 'thought' that they could do what they wanted and if it was 'bad' enough God would kill them.

 

[Nathan]

Quite the opposite, actually. No one has shown otherwise, that to turn away means or even results in loss of salvation.

And I explained from cited Scripture the condition of the believer who does turn away; they are grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit. This is about loss of fellowship, not loss of salvation. No one has shown otherwise.


All of them refer to being out of fellowship. The reason is clear; from Eph 1:13,14 we KNOW that having believed, one is marked IN HIM with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit which guarantees our inheritance for the day of redemption.

How in the world can that refer to anything other than eternal security? Please answer.


Please don't use metaphors and literalize them. It does no good.

Rev 3:20 is about fellowship, once again. The key is WHY Jesus was knocking; to come in AND EAT WITH HIM AND HE WITH ME.

That's NOT salvation by a long stretch. That's exactly what fellowship is about.

Rev 3:20-21
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

The serpent lied about death to Adam and Eve - was that just a loss of fellowship?

Gen 3:4-5
But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
These verses have no relevance to Rev 3:20.

Every where the Bible indicates loss of fellowship is misconstrued to mean loss of salvation.

Which isn't possible, since Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

iow, those who possess eternal life will never perish.

So, for all the OSNAS types, where are ANY verses that tell us that eternal life can be revoked, lost, given away, etc?

As long as this debate has raged, NO ONE has ever found any such verse.

Besides, in John 10:28 Jesus made NO CONDITIONAL comments to ensure never perishing. To never perish is solely dependent upon receiving eternal life.

Once eternal life is received, one will never perish. That's another way to express what Jesus promised.

But since there is so much disagreement, please explain within Jn 10:28 where Jesus added any supposed conditional clauses?

I am not sure why you think that what you state is true, and needs to be refuted. Yet you do not feel that you need to prove or refute others wrong? Interesting.

Revelation 3, the letter to the Laodecians, is very much about being 'spewed' out of Christ and the simple fact that He was outside, knocking to come in.

Pro 21:24
“Scoffer” is the name of the arrogant, haughty man
who acts with arrogant pride.

Only those who are in Christ have life. Those found outside of Him will not have eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

I think you are missing the point - the person who partakes in an unworthy manner is guilty of the blood and body of Christ.

I understand this completely. Which is why Paul had to explain to those carnal Corinthians WHY "many are weak and sickly, and a number have died" in v.30.

Maybe you do not realize this, but to be guilty of the body and blood of Christ puts you in the same place/category as unbelievers.

That would be your imagination. No, it means to abuse the Lord's Table. Just read what Paul listed that they did before he described their unworthy behavior as being guilty of the body and blood of Christ.

Where does the Bible put unbelievers in that category; that they are guilty of the body and blood of Christ? If no verses can be provided, then the conclusion is that the Bible NEVER says what you opine.

It is by Christs body and blood we are found innocent - to then turn around and be found guilty of it puts you back into the place of condemnation.

When a verse or two are provided, your point will be supported. Otherwise, not.

Heb 10:29
How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

I dont' read anything here about being guilty of the body and blood of Christ. Or believers becoming unbelievers. Or condemned along with unbelievers.

I think your imagination is quite vivid.

Christ's body was given for our healing - the people who were partaking of the Lord's supper were doing so without regards to Him, therefore they were sick, weak, and dying/dead. Not discipline - punishment.

It's called divine discipline, whether one will admit it or not. Opinions don't count regarding what the Bible calls it.

Sadly there will be a great number of people who end up eternally away from God because they 'thought' that they could do what they wanted and if it was 'bad' enough God would kill them.

This really reveals just how little is understood regarding God's discipline and eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

These verses have no relevance to Rev 3:20.

Huh? What verses?

Every where the Bible indicates loss of fellowship is misconstrued to mean loss of salvation.

This is exactly backward.

Loss of salvation is impossible because
1. eternal life is an irrevocable gift
2. Jesus promise those who receive eternal life will never perish.
3. Peter wrote that we have been born again of imperishable seed.

Only those who are in Christ have life. Those found outside of Him will not have eternal life.

Of course. Those who are IN Christ have been marked with a seal, the Holy Spirit, guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption, per Eph 1:13 which is a CLEAR STATEMENT OF ETERNAL SECURITY.

Those found not in Christ are those who never believed, and don't have eternal life.

 

[Nathan]

I understand this completely. Which is why Paul had to explain to those carnal Corinthians WHY "many are weak and sickly, and a number have died" in v.30.


That would be your imagination. No, it means to abuse the Lord's Table. Just read what Paul listed that they did before he described their unworthy behavior as being guilty of the body and blood of Christ.

Where does the Bible put unbelievers in that category; that they are guilty of the body and blood of Christ? If no verses can be provided, then the conclusion is that the Bible NEVER says what you opine.


When a verse or two are provided, your point will be supported. Otherwise, not.


I dont' read anything here about being guilty of the body and blood of Christ. Or believers becoming unbelievers. Or condemned along with unbelievers.

I think your imagination is quite vivid.


It's called divine discipline, whether one will admit it or not. Opinions don't count regarding what the Bible calls it.


This really reveals just how little is understood regarding God's discipline and eternal security.

How are plain passages I quote my imagination, but your inturpretation of something truth?

Did Paul say they were guilty or not of the body and blood of Christ?

A believer in Christ is not guilty of His body and blood. We have been brought near to God through them, we were redeemed by them.

Romans 5:9 (ESV)
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

To be found guilty of something means you are held responsible for the punishment that the guilty verdict brings. There is no other sacrifice for a believer to be justified before God other than Christ. So if a person is held guilty for it, there is no other sacrifice for that sin. This is plain and straight forward.

Acts 13
44 The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.
45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him.
46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

Do you believe there is another sacrifice for being found guilty of the body and blood of Christ?

 

[Nathan]

Huh? What verses?


This is exactly backward.

Loss of salvation is impossible because
1. eternal life is an irrevocable gift
2. Jesus promise those who receive eternal life will never perish.
3. Peter wrote that we have been born again of imperishable seed.


Of course. Those who are IN Christ have been marked with a seal, the Holy Spirit, guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption, per Eph 1:13 which is a CLEAR STATEMENT OF ETERNAL SECURITY.

Those found not in Christ are those who never believed, and don't have eternal life.

Well, what happened was my post did not turn out correct because of an extra quote box. I fixed it, so you can go back and review it.

What's interesting is one of the above quotes you just said is backwards is your own quote from a previous post. You just said that what you said earlier was backwards.

I really think that if you slowed down on the posts you might catch what is being said. We have no need to argue, and if we took the time to read then maybe we could learn.

If you would, could you show me where all those not found in Christ have never believed? I find that there will/are some who have believed - who then turn from Christ.

2 Peter 2
17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.
18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error.
19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The point of John 5:24 is about those who now (present tense) believe will not be judged, or condemned, but have passed from death to life.

That's what I've been saying! Jesus said the person who is presently believing has in that very moment of believing eternal life. But you have been dogmatically asserting, in complete contradiction to John 5:24 NASB, that present believing is NOT required to presently have eternal life and that the former believer who does not presently believe has eternal life--in complete contradiction to Jesus' own words.

Just because a person presently believes and, therefore, presently has eternal life doesn't mean that person will believe in the future (that is the Calvinist argument, and I'm certainly no Calvinist.) If the one who presently believes does believe in the future he will have eternal life in that moment of believing, too. If he doesn't believe in the future he will cease to fulfill Jesus' words in John 5:24 NASB and will not have eternal life at that future time of not believing.

That argument is exactly consistent with the present tense 'believing' that Jesus says you must presently have to presently have eternal life. But you keep changing what he said to 'you have eternal life if you believed somewhere in the past but do not presently believe'. That's NOT what Jesus said.

Now, address the argument. Free grace doctrine can not ignore Jesus' own words and say that the person who stopped believing has, in this present moment, eternal life because Jesus said it is the believing person (present tense) that has eternal life (John 5:24 NASB). Instead of explaining why Free grace doctrine can contradict Jesus' words you make up an argument about the present tense that I'm not even arguing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, to never perish is the result of receiving eternal life.

...and having eternal life is the result of present believing (John 5:24 NASB). That makes never perishing contingent on present believing, not a believing done in the past but which has now ceased at the present time. You keep ignoring Jesus' own words that it is the presently believing person that has eternal life:

"he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB bold mine)

Now address the argument. 'Believes' is in the present tense. He who presently believes Him who sent Jesus has eternal life, not the person who doesn't presently believe. Read it. There is no eternal life (never perishing) apart from present believing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

John 5:24 is not about those who KEEP ON BELIEVING. But those who currently believe, or believe NOW. There is NO suggestion from the present tense that they will KEEP ON BELIEVING.

I'm not a Calvinist.
I have NEVER said present believing means a person will believe in the future.
I'm understanding the present tense exactly for what it means--if you presently believe you presently have eternal life. I find it incredible that you think I'm using the present tense verb in John 5:24 NASB to support a Calvinist OSAS argument that I'm not even making.

Don't distract from the point I'm making with the accusation that I'm saying the present tense means the present believer will believe in the future. That's an OSAS argument. The very thing I'm against, lol!

 

[gr8grace3]

This is really the bottom line. We cannot un-do what God has done for us. Jesus said so in John 10:28-29.

Fellowship is a key factor in the NT, as it is in EVERY relationship. Fellowship is the "state" of the relationship. Our relationship with God can be on the right track, or the wrong track. We know this from Eph 4:30 and 1 Thess 5:19 that speaks of grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit. There's no fellowship when that's the situation.

Instead, we need to be filled with the Spirit and walking by means of the Spirit, per Eph 5:18 and Gal 5:16. This is what fellowship means and is.

Great post!

Amen. As believers, if we are stuck on salvation and think this life is about trying to stay saved........we go nowhere in His plan for us. And , honestly we are not in fellowship with Him. He doesn't warn us about losing eternal life, he warns us about being out of fellowship with Him.

A believer in fellowship................doesn't believe salvation can be lost.Period.

Fall out of fellowship?........salvation is conditional in our minds (carnal thinking.)

 

[MarkT]

Apology accepted.

I think now we have 'opened' the top of the well, and now we can peer down into it. To try and break down what Jesus is speaking about, in detail, in just a few posts is near impossible. Much of the NT is written about this very subject, so to think we can condense it down to just a few short sentences is asking a lot. It is actually a very good Bible study topic. However, I will try to condense what I have studied in as short a way as possible.

The Spirit is no doubt Who is inside us. In order to understand this in human terms, we have to speak in human terms with metaphoric language.

The Spirit is the 'physical' structure of the well. We have to have this structure inside us because we are incapable of containing something(faith) so powerful. The first mistake is to not understand the power faith has - most think its just a simple 'thought' or 'belief'. We know it is much more powerful than that, being able to calm storms, move mountains, raise dead, etc. Mankind cannot produce this kind of faith, it has to be given to us - 'produced' in us, because true faith is the power of God.

Within the 'well'(physical structure) there is 'water'(truth). This truth is the Word of God. This water is what saturates our lives, and over'flows' out of us. This is done through faith. Faith is the truth of God in us, and the working of faith is the truth of God flowing out of us.

Here is the distinction: There are many things that 'well' up in a person, and 'flow' from them - but only that which comes from faith is the truth. Anything else that doesn't come from the 'well' of faith is sin. How do we know the difference? We know the difference by what 'structure' we are drawing from. The 'Spirit well' contains faith, the 'flesh well' contains sin.

The 'evidence' of what well is flowing out of our hearts is seen by the 'fruit' of what it produces. When the Spirit is 'producing'(springing up) faith in us, it flows out of us in what we do - our actions - and from those actions we see 're-actions'(fruit) that grows. We call this the 'fruit of the Spirit'. James writes about it in this way(which Jethro Bodine so truthfully spoke about in post #1948).

Jas 2:18
But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Like I said, a whole book could be written on this if you were to draw out all the examples given to us in the NT. This is just a VERY short breakdown of it.

Actually the living water is the word of God. Christ is the fountain. When we drink his word, his word in us becomes a spring of water welling up to eternal life. John 4:14

Living water means it has life in it. It gives life. Without this life giving water, branches wither, as we know. John 15:6

 

[Nathan]

Actually the living water is the word of God. Christ is the fountain. When we drink his word, his word in us becomes a spring of water welling up to eternal life. John 4:14

Living water means it has life in it. It gives life. Without this life giving water, branches wither, as we know. John 15:6

True, faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God.

Romans 10:17 (ESV)
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Ephesians 3 also speaks to this, Paul even using metaphoric language relating to plants.

Faith is the essence of receiving and producing truth in us. God designed it this way so that we constantly walk by His truth and not our own.

When we live by sight, by the things we see and hear, we do things in our own power. When we draw truth from the well of faith it works in the power of God.

Romans 1:16 (ESV) 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Romans 1:17 (ESV) 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."

 

[MarkT]

I believe the Bible is clear about those who have believed cannot fall away from salvation, but they sure can fall away from faithfulness.


Is this a suggestion or claim that John 10:28 is only about those who hold the highest offices?? Please clarify.


This can sure be taken in a variety of ways. Some will say there are more than one way to heaven. So be careful of what you say.

The gospel is clear and narrow. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Acts 16:31
Jesus said He was The Way, The Truth, and The Life. And that no man comes to the Father except by Him. John 14:6

Yes. There is a hierarchy. Everyone doesn't receive the same thing. 1 Cor. 12:4-11

If a man falls and is broken, he is not good for anything. Like a broken cup. What good is it? Why would you save it?

 

[MarkT]

True, faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God.

Romans 10:17 (ESV)
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Ephesians 3 also speaks to this, Paul even using metaphoric language relating to plants.

Faith is the essence of receiving and producing truth in us. God designed it this way so that we constantly walk by His truth and not our own.

When we live by sight, by the things we see and hear, we do things in our own power. When we draw truth from the well of faith it works in the power of God.

Romans 1:16 (ESV) 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Romans 1:17 (ESV) 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."

The definition of faith is complete trust or confidence in someone or something. Faith in God is
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

I don't know what you mean by, "Faith is the essence of receiving and producing truth in us. God designed it this way so that we constantly walk by His truth and not our own."

God gave us a measure of faith when he made us. Romans 12:3 Faith is a commodity more precious than gold and silver. 1 Pet. 1:7

You would not say draw truth from the well of faith. You might say draw faith from the well of faith. Or truth from the well of truth. But the Bible uses the word, 'fountain' as in Pr. 13:14, 14:27 16:22, 18:4 Anyway, faith isn't a well.

Jesus said they would hear but they would not understand. Mt. 13:13-19 So it is by understanding that we receive the words of God. Those who believe Jesus believe Jesus is the truth.
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

We know his word is true.
John 16:13
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

John 17:8
for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me.

I'm just saying the living water is the word of God.

Psalm 119:130
The unfolding of thy words gives light; it imparts understanding to the simple.