Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[MarkT]

Excellent. These are the kinds of discussions I really like.

There are two 'types' of faith. Man's faith - God's faith. Faith is simply believing and doing what you understand to be true. When you believe and do things based on Man's faith - you sin. When you believe and do things based on God's faith - you are righteous. The difference between the two is absolute truth. Man's faith is not based on pure truth. God's faith is based on pure truth.

Jhn 4:10
Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.”

God's faith can only be given to us. We cannot take it, or make it up ourselves. It is a gift from God. God's faith is given to us in order to understand the truth. Truth is only understood through faith.

Jhn 14:15-17
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

The Spirit is given to us in order to distinguish what is truth - and what is not. That is why those who are void of the Spirit cannot understand the truth - neither can they contain it or use it. When the Spirit comes into the believer, then that person now has the ability to know truth and do truth - this is called true faith.

This is why it is impossible to have truly believe in Christ without the 'gift' of God - which is the faith of God - given to us by the Spirit of God.

The Spirit of truth dwells in us by that faith.

Gal 3:2-3
Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

So, the Spirit of truth is Who comes and dwells in us containing the truth of God. In that we live and walk by faith. Its true faith because it comes from understanding the truth of God, which is only because of the Spirit of God.

Jesus was telling the woman at the well that the "gift" of God, which is given by the Spirit of God, would be the living water. Faith is that gift, and we know that the faith we have is true when we see the life it gives in us and from us.

To bring this back home, you are correct - truth is what the 'well'(structure) is because it is the Spirit of truth. Truth is the qualification of the faith of God. If a persons faith is not 100% true - then it is not God's faith. From the 'well'(structure) of truth, we have the 'welling'(flow) of faith that is in the person and flows from the person.

Faith is the manifestation of what is inside a person. False faith is not life giving. True faith is life giving. It is by true faith that we live.

Rom 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.

Gal 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Heb 10:38
but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him.”

I don't think there are two types of faith. God is faithful. He gave us a measure of faith when he made us, according to his will, for his purpose. Certainly God gives growth. Peter speaks of a level of faith, 'those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours" ie. a faith of standing equal to an apostle. 2 Pet. 1:1 When Jesus spoke of faith it was always 'your faith' or 'their faith'. He was looking for faith. Found faith. Mt. 8:10 And he said will he find faith when he returns. Luke 18:8

But re. water, the water is the word of God.

Apollos watered the church. He didn't water the church with faith. He watered the church with the words of God, specifically the words Jesus gave us when he said,
John 17:8
for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Amos said there would be a famine on the land; not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD.
Amos 8:11
“Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord God, “when I will send a famine on the land; not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord.

We know branches wither for lack of water. We know when the unclean spirit passes out of a man he passes through waterless places.
Matthew 12:43
“When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes through waterless places seeking rest, but he finds none.

So shall it be with this evil generation. They search for the truth in waterless places. It might be they go to church but the church has become waterless. Or they might turn on the TV in search of water, but they find no water. The word of God can not be found anywhere.

They're not looking for faith. They are looking for truth.

When Peter wanted to warn us there will be false teachers, he called them 'waterless' springs meaning there was no water in them ie. the word of God is not in them. 2 Peter 2:17

Jesus said, "He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.’” John 7:38

The whole idea and God's purpose is to make us like our Master. Christ is the fountain of living water, and we become fountains when we believe in him.

 

[Nathan]

dirtfarmer and MarkT

There are two 'types' of faith. True faith, and false faith. Only one is real, the other seems real, but is a lie.

Jas 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

There is a false faith. It is the faith that believes what it wants to believe, it is not a faith based on the truth of God.

Pro 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death

When we live in the true faith of Christ, our faith flows out of us and is seen by what we do. It is that faith, that has good fruit, that shows we are the Children of God. It is also that faith, that comes from us, that shows we are in the truth. Its easy to say "I have the truth, it is in me, here it is for you" - false teachers come and say this all the time.

It is the working out of our faith, the fruit of the true faith in us, that distinguishes right from wrong. Everyone claims to know the truth and espouse it, only those who have the faith of God - the true faith - will show it by what they do. The others will be made manifest also, because their false faith shows the truth is not in them.

The gift of God is faith. It is a gift from Him so that we cannot say we did anything to earn it or produce it. It is this faith that is constantly under attack from the enemy - the enemy does not attack the truth, because the truth can be easily twisted by them to sway people from salvation. The enemy attacks the faith, because they know that faith is what connects us with God, and what God uses to work out of us reaching others.

Jde 1:3-4
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What is that a "person present, right now believing", is never perishing from, but if they quite believing, they are perishing from?

The believing person has eternal life. He is alive, and will always be alive as long as he believes, because it is the believing person that has eternal life:

"he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB)

But Freegrace doctrine claims, contrary to Jesus' words above, that the ex-believer has eternal life.

I don't know why the Calvinists aren't assailing this blasphemous Freegrace message except that they must be unaware of what Freegrace doctrine is actually teaching. As you probably know, Calvinists OSASer's say the person who stops believing does not have eternal life, because he was never really saved to begin with. But I don't hear a peep out of them in these Hyper/Free-grace theads. Not a peep.

are they suffering from eternal damnation now?

Not the full weight of it.
The scriptures do say that once a person loses the eternal life they once had they can not get it back. So they have already been turned over to eternal damnation and will go to the lake of fire at the end of the age.

 

[GodsGrace]

The believing person has eternal life. He is alive, and will always be alive as long as he believes, because it is the believing person that has eternal life:

"he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB)

But Freegrace doctrine claims, contrary to Jesus' words above, that the ex-believer has eternal life.

I don't know why the Calvinists aren't assailing this blasphemous Freegrace message except that they must be unaware of what Freegrace doctrine is actually teaching. As you probably know, Calvinists OSASer's say the person who stops believing does not have eternal life, because he was never really saved to begin with. But I don't hear a peep out of them in these Hyper/Free-grace theads. Not a peep.


Not the full weight of it.
The scriptures do say that once a person loses the eternal life they once had they can not get it back. So they have already been turned over to eternal damnation and will go to the lake of fire at the end of the age.

Jethro,

Are you saying that if I abandon God once, I can never decide to go back to Him?
Based on the Hebrews scripture?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro,

Are you saying that if I abandon God once, I can never decide to go back to Him?
Based on the Hebrews scripture?

If a believer goes back to unbelief, and God turns them over to that unbelief, they will be given no opportunity to come back to faith in Christ. It's over. And, yes, that is based on the Hebrews 6:4-6 passage. I believe God is long suffering and he may hold the doors open for a while for the ex-believer to come back to their senses. But after that it's over, baby. He eventually turns the ex-believer over to their decision and there's no coming back. I would think a baby Christian who is now in unbelief would be given more space to repent, while the seasoned believer who is now in unbelief would not be given much space at all, if any.

 

[GodsGrace]

If a believer goes back to unbelief, and God turns them over to that unbelief, they will be given no opportunity to come back to faith in Christ. It's over. And, yes, that is based on the Hebrews 6:4-6 passage. I believe God is long suffering and he may hold the doors open for a while for the ex-believer to come back to their senses. But after that it's over, baby. He eventually turns the ex-believer over to their decision and there's no coming back. I would think a baby Christian who is now in unbelief would be given more space to repent, while the seasoned believer who is now in unbelief would not be given much space at all, if any.

Hebrews.
Isn't that like what we complain about?
Taking one verse and making a doctrine or theology out of it?

Wouldn't that be taking away my free will to return to God?
If He refused me, how would I then carry the responsibility of ending up lost?
It would become God's responsibility.

That's not biblical.
Salvation, or loss of it, MUST be our choice.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hebrews.
Isn't that like what we complain about?
Taking one verse and making a doctrine or theology out of it?

Wouldn't that be taking away my free will to return to God?
If He refused me, how would I then carry the responsibility of ending up lost?
It would become God's responsibility.

That's not biblical.
Salvation, or loss of it, MUST be our choice.

Read the passage.
It says what it says.

Wouldn't that be taking away my free will to return to God?

Yep. You USED to have it. You had it and became accountable for what you do with it. But you abused it, so God puts it up on the top shelf where you can't play with it anymore while you receive the just penalty of your punishment.

 

[GodsGrace]

Read the passage.
It says what it says.


Yep. You USED to have it. You had it and became accountable for what you do with it. But you abused it, so God puts it up on the top shelf where you can't play with it anymore while you receive the just penalty of your punishment.

No Jethro.
You don't get to invent theology like the hyper gracers do.
I need my computer...lata.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Salvation, or loss of it, MUST be our choice.

Of course it is.
When a person decides to not believe anymore, that is their decision. God responds by not allowing you to come back to repentance and putting Christ to open shame.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No Jethro.
You don't get to invent theology like the hyper gracers do.
I need my computer...lata.

I can see the error of thinking you are making.
The person stops believing, FIRST.
Then God responds with the punishment of not being able to come back to repentance, because that puts Christ to open shame.

 

[Nathan]

The passage in Hebrews is clear why those who leave the faith do not repent. It is because they 'crucify' Christ again(which is impossible) and so their belief is then skewed by their own self will.

In essence, the writer of Hebrews is stating they do not repent because they think it's rediculous to repent. This was the condition of Esau. He found no repentance because he totally rejected his sin in the matter.

Forsaking, turning away, falling away, apostatsy, all have a distinct choice made by a person. We can put it into modern day terms by saying that one who leaves the faith is like a person who travels to the other side of the world. It doesn't 'just happen' it's a deliberate, willful, choice.

I honestly think 99% of your "professing believers" today, who seem like they have fallen away really have never come to Christ. The enemy has done a real number on people through the years in making them think that what they 'do' to receive Christ is not a work.

Yet if you ask most of them how they know for sure they are a believer, they will tell you it's based on the time they remember "accepting" Christ! That is a works based salvation.

Point is, those who have actually come to share in Christ, who then turn away, do so knowing full well what they are doing - and therefore they will have no desire to return.

If a person 'feels' this is where they are at, I think the person is under conviction if they have never been in Christ - or - they are being disciplined if they are in Christ. Either way, they need to turn to Christ and simply abide in Him. When you do that, the doubts disappear.

 

[MarkT]

dirtfarmer and MarkT

There are two 'types' of faith. True faith, and false faith. Only one is real, the other seems real, but is a lie.

Jas 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

There is a false faith. It is the faith that believes what it wants to believe, it is not a faith based on the truth of God.

Pro 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death

When we live in the true faith of Christ, our faith flows out of us and is seen by what we do. It is that faith, that has good fruit, that shows we are the Children of God. It is also that faith, that comes from us, that shows we are in the truth. Its easy to say "I have the truth, it is in me, here it is for you" - false teachers come and say this all the time.

It is the working out of our faith, the fruit of the true faith in us, that distinguishes right from wrong. Everyone claims to know the truth and espouse it, only those who have the faith of God - the true faith - will show it by what they do. The others will be made manifest also, because their false faith shows the truth is not in them.

The gift of God is faith. It is a gift from Him so that we cannot say we did anything to earn it or produce it. It is this faith that is constantly under attack from the enemy - the enemy does not attack the truth, because the truth can be easily twisted by them to sway people from salvation. The enemy attacks the faith, because they know that faith is what connects us with God, and what God uses to work out of us reaching others.

Jde 1:3-4
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Faith is faith. Maybe you mean a dead faith, a faith without works, a faith that is inactive. As James said, "I by my works show you my faith."

A false faith would imply false teachings. Maybe even idol worship. I agree people will fall away from the truth because it seems right to them.
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings,

I would not say faith flows out of us. Faith is our shield.
Ephesians 6:16
besides all these, taking the shield of faith, with which you can quench all the flaming darts of the evil one.

I would say words flow out of us.

Luke 6:45
The good man out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure produces evil; for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

I would not call it faith if they fall away from the truth. Whether they ever had faith to begin with, I don't know. All I know is they didn't like the truth. John said they would have continued with us if they were of us.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.

You say faith is a gift of God. I would say everything good comes from God. I also believe God gave us a measure of faith and a believing heart when he made us. So at the appointed time we were ready to hear and believe.

 

[Nathan]

Faith is faith. Maybe you mean a dead faith, a faith without works, a faith that is inactive. As James said, "I by my works show you my faith."

A false faith would imply false teachings. Maybe even idol worship. I agree people will fall away from the truth because it seems right to them.
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings,

I would not say faith flows out of us. Faith is our shield.
Ephesians 6:16
besides all these, taking the shield of faith, with which you can quench all the flaming darts of the evil one.

I would say words flow out of us.

Luke 6:45
The good man out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure produces evil; for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

I would not call it faith if they fall away from the truth. Whether they ever had faith to begin with, I don't know. All I know is they didn't like the truth. John said they would have continued with us if they were of us.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.

You say faith is a gift of God. I would say everything good comes from God. I also believe God gave us a measure of faith and a believing heart when he made us. So at the appointed time we were ready to hear and believe.

It's prophesied that people will fall away from the faith - not just truth.

True faith is based in the word of God alone. It is that faith that flows out of us, in the actions we do. We do what we believe.

The man who says he believes one thing, then does another, actually believes that which is shown by what he does - not what he says.

Do you mean that God gave us that measure of faith to believe when we are physically born, or when we are born from above?

 

[MarkT]

It's prophesied that people will fall away from the faith - not just truth.

True faith is based in the word of God alone. It is that faith that flows out of us, in the actions we do. We do what we believe.

The man who says he believes one thing, then does another, actually believes that which is shown by what he does - not what he says.

Do you mean that God gave us that measure of faith to believe when we are physically born, or when we are born from above?

What's the difference? The truth is the truth. Faith is faith. Jesus Christ is the truth. Our faith is in him. Our faith is our shield.

A tree is known by its fruit. The fruit of the Spirit is love, kindness, mercy, forgiveness.

A man who teaches one thing and does another is a hypocrite. But I wouldn't say a man believes that which is shown by what he does. That's like saying a man who sins believes in sin. Jesus taught us to not judge. If a man is doing God's will, God knows it.

Our faith is in what we have heard from the Father through his Son, Jesus Christ. James said faith is completed by works. Indeed acts of kindness, mercy and forgiveness complete our faith. So if a man believes in the Son of God, he will keep his commandments. Faith is active. We love God. We forgive those who trespass against us. We show mercy. We pray. etc.

The thing I disagree with is faith flows. Faith doesn't flow. The living water is the word of God. It's the thing that waters the branches. God created everything by his word. His word is spirit and life.
John 6:63
It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

I mean when he made us. You could say when we came into this world.

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

Romans 8:30
And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

[GodsGrace]

I can see the error of thinking you are making.
The person stops believing, FIRST.
Then God responds with the punishment of not being able to come back to repentance, because that puts Christ to open shame.

Jethro,
God doesn't punish us.
What error am I making?

When the N.T. says that God gave them over to their reprobate minds, it doesn't literally mean the He willed them over to a depraved mind. It means that He just let them do what they wanted to do. He stopped trying to influence them.
Romans 1:28

This does not mean that God would not want His child back. Do you not know the symbolism of the Prodigal Son?
The Father is always waiting for us with open arms. He will NEVER say NO to us.

You're going from one extreme to the other.
Easy or Hyper Grace where anything goes to a God that will not have us return to Him.

You cannot take one scripture out of the bible and use it the way you are.

Assuming Paul wrote Hebrews, he's saying that the Jews who were going back to Judaism, thus denying Jesus, were again crucifying Him. These are people who were saved and going back to denying Jesus and would thus lose their salvation.

However, the bible is full of verses that show that one can make a mistake and return to God.
It is, however, in some cases impossible to bring them back because the falling away is so great and the emotions against God are so great.

This does not mean that it's impossible. The Apostles must have witnessed many that fell away and never returned because they were so entrenched in their former ways.
With God nothing is impossible.
God is Love.

Many post that thye're worried about their status with God because they had fallen away but now wish to return.
God will surely accept them because His love and mercy are His very being. We will in no wise be turned away.
John 6:37

See also Mathew 12:32
JESUS said that whoever blasphemes agains the Son of Man WILL BE FORGIVEN.

The Prodigal Son ---- He was saved, he was lost, he was saved again.
Luke 15:11-32

• 

 

[dirtfarmer]

Jethro,
God doesn't punish us.
What error am I making?

When the N.T. says that God gave them over to their reprobate minds, it doesn't literally mean the He willed them over to a depraved mind. It means that He just let them do what they wanted to do. He stopped trying to influence them.
Romans 1:28

This does not mean that God would not want His child back. Do you not know the symbolism of the Prodigal Son?
The Father is always waiting for us with open arms. He will NEVER say NO to us.

You're going from one extreme to the other.
Easy or Hyper Grace where anything goes to a God that will not have us return to Him.

You cannot take one scripture out of the bible and use it the way you are.

Assuming Paul wrote Hebrews, he's saying that the Jews who were going back to Judaism, thus denying Jesus, were again crucifying Him. These are people who were saved and going back to denying Jesus and would thus lose their salvation.

However, the bible is full of verses that show that one can make a mistake and return to God.
It is, however, in some cases impossible to bring them back because the falling away is so great and the emotions against God are so great.

This does not mean that it's impossible. The Apostles must have witnessed many that fell away and never returned because they were so entrenched in their former ways.
With God nothing is impossible.
God is Love.

Many post that thye're worried about their status with God because they had fallen away but now wish to return.
God will surely accept them because His love and mercy are His very being. We will in no wise be turned away.
John 6:37

See also Mathew 12:32
JESUS said that whoever blasphemes agains the Son of Man WILL BE FORGIVEN.

The Prodigal Son ---- He was saved, he was lost, he was saved again.
Luke 15:11-32

• 

hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

Even though we are not in agreement on the "security" of the believer's salvation, I do agree God doesn't punish us.

Jesus Christ suffered punishment for the sin of the whole world. It is unbelief, at the point of physical death, that consigns an unbeliever to the lake of fire. Scripture states that if we receive no chastisement, then we are not God's children. Any one that claims to be a Christian but can live as they want without God's correction is illegitimate. We are told that God corrects his children.

 

[GodsGrace]

hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

Even though we are not in agreement on the "security" of the believer's salvation, I do agree God doesn't punish us.

Jesus Christ suffered punishment for the sin of the whole world. It is unbelief, at the point of physical death, that consigns an unbeliever to the lake of fire. Scripture states that if we receive no chastisement, then we are not God's children. Any one that claims to be a Christian but can live as they want without God's correction is illegitimate. We are told that God corrects his children.

Agreed.
God is not a punishing God. He revealed Himself in the O.T. and the revelation was not immediately forthcoming.
It took Jesus to really make us understand God. Many times Jesus said: You Have Heard it Said --- this is when He was going to correct something that was misunderstood about God and His ways.

We are in agreement on the security because as long as we are IN Christ, we are secure. it is not easy to leave and forsake the love of God once it is known!

God does correct us and teach us. This is different, of course.
God IS Love.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Agreed.
God is not a punishing God. He revealed Himself in the O.T. and the revelation was not immediately forthcoming.
It took Jesus to really make us understand God. Many times Jesus said: You Have Heard it Said --- this is when He was going to correct something that was misunderstood about God and His ways.

We are in agreement on the security because as long as we are IN Christ, we are secure. it is not easy to leave and forsake the love of God once it is known!

God does correct us and teach us. This is different, of course.
God IS Love.

hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

You have put a qualifier ,"as long as we are in Christ".
Philippians 4:7, " And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Jesus Christ." In this verse we are told that it is the peace of God, the efficient cause, that keeps our hearts and minds. The secondary agent, faith in Christ that results in salvation.
Passeth- surpasses- holds above: transcends the reach of man's ability to understand the continual peace that baffles man's ability to explain supernatural peace. Stephen in the book of Acts 7:54-59 is an example.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Jethro,
God doesn't punish us.
What error am I making?

When the N.T. says that God gave them over to their reprobate minds, it doesn't literally mean the He willed them over to a depraved mind. It means that He just let them do what they wanted to do. He stopped trying to influence them.
Romans 1:28

This does not mean that God would not want His child back. Do you not know the symbolism of the Prodigal Son?
The Father is always waiting for us with open arms. He will NEVER say NO to us.

You're going from one extreme to the other.
Easy or Hyper Grace where anything goes to a God that will not have us return to Him.

You cannot take one scripture out of the bible and use it the way you are.

Assuming Paul wrote Hebrews, he's saying that the Jews who were going back to Judaism, thus denying Jesus, were again crucifying Him. These are people who were saved and going back to denying Jesus and would thus lose their salvation.

However, the bible is full of verses that show that one can make a mistake and return to God.
It is, however, in some cases impossible to bring them back because the falling away is so great and the emotions against God are so great.

This does not mean that it's impossible. The Apostles must have witnessed many that fell away and never returned because they were so entrenched in their former ways.
With God nothing is impossible.
God is Love.

Many post that thye're worried about their status with God because they had fallen away but now wish to return.
God will surely accept them because His love and mercy are His very being. We will in no wise be turned away.
John 6:37

See also Mathew 12:32
JESUS said that whoever blasphemes agains the Son of Man WILL BE FORGIVEN.

The Prodigal Son ---- He was saved, he was lost, he was saved again.
Luke 15:11-32

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hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

The prodigal son was always the father's son. He never ceased to be a child of his father. In verse 18 of Luke 15 the prodigal said " I will arise and go to my father." Does this sound like a lost sinner? Can a lost sinner call God, "My Father"? A son that has a relationship by birth can. The relationship of Father and son was not broken, but the fellowship between the father and son was broken. As long as the son was in the pig sty(world), there could be no fellowship. Once the son realized the fellowship was broken by his action he said, "I will arise and go to my father". Where do we find that in salvation the Father runs to the sinner and lavishes gifts upon him?

 

[gr8grace3]

hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

Even though we are not in agreement on the "security" of the believer's salvation, I do agree God doesn't punish us.

Jesus Christ suffered punishment for the sin of the whole world. It is unbelief, at the point of physical death, that consigns an unbeliever to the lake of fire. Scripture states that if we receive no chastisement, then we are not God's children. Any one that claims to be a Christian but can live as they want without God's correction is illegitimate. We are told that God corrects his children.

Wonderful stuff dirtfarmer. God deals with us in Grace and mercy. But it seems most believers want God to fry us all.