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Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

dirtfarmer said:
hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

The prodigal son was always the father's son. He never ceased to be a child of his father. In verse 18 of Luke 15 the prodigal said " I will arise and go to my father." Does this sound like a lost sinner? Can a lost sinner call God, "My Father"? A son that has a relationship by birth can. The relationship of Father and son was not broken, but the fellowship between the father and son was broken. As long as the son was in the pig sty(world), there could be no fellowship. Once the son realized the fellowship was broken by his action he said, "I will arise and go to my father". Where do we find that in salvation the Father runs to the sinner and lavishes gifts upon him?
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When the lost person goes back to the Father.
NOT the sinner. We all sin and do not become lost.
When we ABANDON God, we become lost.

Luke 15:24
"This son of mine was DEAD" (lost)
"And has come to life AGAIN" (he was alive before, then became dead)
"He was LOST and has been FOUND"

The Son was saved
Lost
Saved

We are lost when we do not have Christ's life in us. The zoe life. The zoe life is impossible WITHOUT Christ. God's life must be in us to be able to go live with God. We do not have that life if we do not have Jesus.
John 3:36
John 11:25-26 Believes is always in the present tense. We must believe at the time of our death.
 
wondering said:
Hi Dirtfarmer,

I put a qualifier because I cannot understand how eternal security can be possible in any other way other than IN Christ.
You posted verse 4:7 of Philippians. Not sure how you mean this.

Are you saying that Christ will not ALLOW us to leave Him, forsake Him, abandon Him?
Are you saying that He works through our heart and mind to stay with Him making it impossible to leave?

( I also don't understand why you posted Stephen in Acts)
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hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

In Acts 7, if Stephen had not had God's peace that passes all understanding, do you believe that he could have "cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge" ?

What is it that gives the Christian peace, even on their death bed; is it knowing that whether they live or die, that they are in God's hand even though they have not always been faithful in the life that they lived.
 
wondering said:
When the lost person goes back to the Father.
NOT the sinner. We all sin and do not become lost.
When we ABANDON God, we become lost.

Luke 15:24
"This son of mine was DEAD" (lost)
"And has come to life AGAIN" (he was alive before, then became dead)
"He was LOST and has been FOUND"

The Son was saved
Lost
Saved

We are lost when we do not have Christ's life in us. The zoe life. The zoe life is impossible WITHOUT Christ. God's life must be in us to be able to go live with God. We do not have that life if we do not have Jesus.
John 3:36
John 11:25-26 Believes is always in the present tense. We must believe at the time of our death.
Click to expand...

hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

What scripture states that we have the ability to abandon God? I find that the "saint", that still sins from time to time, can leave the fellowship of God, but never have I found where we have the power to break or abandon, revert back, to the "old man" that was crucified with Christ.
 
dirtfarmer said:
hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

What scripture states that we have the ability to abandon God? I find that the "saint", that still sins from time to time, can leave the fellowship of God, but never have I found where we have the power to break or abandon, revert back, to the "old man" that was crucified with Christ.
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dirtfarmer,

It really is quite simple. Most of what you read is metaphoric language. It describes who we are in Christ, but it never negates the fact of the 'old man' still being present. We should consider him 'dead' - but the simple fact that you still sin shows you he is not 'dead'. If the 'old man' were non-existent, then you would not sin.

Gal 4:8-11
Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more? You observe days and months and seasons and years! I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

Paul was very concerned that his labor was in vain. He never denies the fact that they had come to be known by God - truly believed and were saved - but he is concerned because they are turning back to the principles of the world. He is concerned because he see's them wanting to be enslaved to them again.

We have a choice to make. We either live by the Spirit or the flesh. Before we were saved we had no choice.

Rom 8:12-17
So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
"...those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. 11“Later the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’ 12“But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’ (Matthew 25:10-12 NASB)

"...like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears." (Hebrews 12:16-17 NASB)

"...God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 NASB)
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The Ten Virgins: Mathew 25:10-12
What's the point of the parable?
Who was lost, saved, lost and saved again in that parable?
No one.

The point of the parable is to be ready when the Savior comes. Either the first time (born again) or the second time.
Also, we can't borrow other people's oil, we need to get our own.

Esau: Hebrews 12:16-17
This is to teach that we should not give away a long-term gift from God for a short term satisfaction. (the appetite)
Once a blessing was given in the O.T., it could not be changed.
We cannot take this to mean that Esau was lost. (I never considered this BTW)

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
I don't understand what this has to do with our discussion.

I'm afraid you've not shown that God is unable to forgive someone who has forsaken Him for some time and then decides to come back to Him.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
"30For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.32But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world." (1 Corinthians 11:30-32 NASB)

"1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife.
5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
(1 Corinthians 5:1,5 NASB)

(Be civil. Don't turn this into an attack on me.)
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I wish you wouldn't talk using ONLY verses.
For instance, I don't understand what you mean by 1 Corinthians. It has to do with Communion.

And re turning one over to satan, this goes to what I explained two posts ago.
First of all it's Paul saying it here.
But it means the same thing as when God says it.

He doesn't LITERALLY turn us over to satan. God wants us to be saved, not lost.
God desires that all come to repentence. 2 Peter 3:9
It's just God, or Paul, saying, "If that's the way you want it, that's the way you could have it".

God will always take us back.
 
wondering said:
The Ten Virgins: Mathew 25:10-12
What's the point of the parable?
Who was lost, saved, lost and saved again in that parable?
No one.
Click to expand...
The five foolish virgins were lost. They were not permitted to enter into the wedding feast. The wedding feast is a metaphor for the coming kingdom of God on earth.

iakov the fool
 
wondering said:
I wish you wouldn't talk using ONLY verses.
For instance, I don't understand what you mean by 1 Corinthians. It has to do with Communion.

And re turning one over to satan, this goes to what I explained two posts ago.
First of all it's Paul saying it here.
But it means the same thing as when God says it.

He doesn't LITERALLY turn us over to satan. God wants us to be saved, not lost.
God desires that all come to repentence. 2 Peter 3:9
It's just God, or Paul, saying, "If that's the way you want it, that's the way you could have it".

God will always take us back.
Click to expand...
:thumbsup
 
Consider this, when do people most often turn to God?

Usually it is when they are physically hurting.

Paul giving over the person was simply allowing satan to have full reign on the physical body, in hopes that the person would turn away from their sin and back to Christ.
 
wondering said:
The Ten Virgins: Mathew 25:10-12
What's the point of the parable?
Who was lost, saved, lost and saved again in that parable?
No one.

The point of the parable is to be ready when the Savior comes. Either the first time (born again) or the second time.
Also, we can't borrow other people's oil, we need to get our own.

Esau: Hebrews 12:16-17
This is to teach that we should not give away a long-term gift from God for a short term satisfaction. (the appetite)
Once a blessing was given in the O.T., it could not be changed.
We cannot take this to mean that Esau was lost. (I never considered this BTW)

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
I don't understand what this has to do with our discussion.

I'm afraid you've not shown that God is unable to forgive someone who has forsaken Him for some time and then decides to come back to Him.
Click to expand...
You said God never says 'no' to us.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
You said God never says 'no' to us.
Click to expand...
Pay attention to the parable.
They showed up after the door was closed.
Jesus came back and they were not ready.
We could die and not be ready.
Seek the Lord while He may be found.

This parable does not prove your point.
God wants everyone who wants Him.
UNTIL we die and it's too late, or He comes back and it's too late.
 
dirtfarmer said:
hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

In Acts 7, if Stephen had not had God's peace that passes all understanding, do you believe that he could have "cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge" ?

What is it that gives the Christian peace, even on their death bed; is it knowing that whether they live or die, that they are in God's hand even though they have not always been faithful in the life that they lived.
Click to expand...
Hi Dirtfarmer

I agree with all you've said.
Abandoning God goes beyond not being faithful.
All of us are not faithful many times.
We are still in the Lord's hands.
 
dirtfarmer said:
hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

What scripture states that we have the ability to abandon God? I find that the "saint", that still sins from time to time, can leave the fellowship of God, but never have I found where we have the power to break or abandon, revert back, to the "old man" that was crucified with Christ.
Click to expand...
I can think of a few but no Bible.
2 Peter 2:20...
Hebrews 6
The parable of the sower,,,Mathew
There's something in Corinthians, Romans.

Tomorrow DF
 
wondering said:
God wants everyone who wants Him.
UNTIL we die and it's too late, or He comes back and it's too late.
Click to expand...
No, he wants everyone until they refuse him over and over and over again to the point to which God stops calling them and He withdraws his Holy Spirit and turns them over to the falseness they love so they will be judged upon Christ's return (2 Thessalonians 2:11 NASB).

Think about what you're saying. You're saying it is possible to renew the fallen, ex-believer to repentance and put Christ to open shame while the passage below says it is not possible to renew them to repentance and put Christ to open shame:

Read carefully:
4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6 NASB)

The reason they can't be renewed again to repentance is not because they don't want to (you claim, if they did, God would always without exception take them back). No, the reason they can't be renewed to repentance is because that puts Christ to open shame. But if what you say is true, that God will always without exception take back fallen, ex-believers, then you are saying it is possible to renew them again to repentance and put Christ to open shame. Which is completely contrary to what the passage says.

Once a person crosses the line where God withdraws the Holy Spirit from that person's life, they can't come back. God won't allow it because it puts Christ to open shame. They can't come back, not because those who can't don't want to come back, but because God won't allow Christ to be put to the shame of being re-crucified. The author explains later in the letter that Christ's sacrifice does not remain for the person who departs in a willful sinning. (Hebrews 10:26-27 NASB).

If you will recall in the OT, the glory of the Holy Spirit entered the newly constructed temple upon the offering up of the correct sacrifices. This is an obvious reference to how the Holy Spirit comes into the temple of our bodies when we offer up the sacrifice of Christ through our faith in Christ. So for the Holy Spirit to come back into the ex-believer Christ has to be in effect re-crucified. God does not allow that shame to come upon Christ again. So the ex-believer who has finally been turned over to his unbelief and has lost the Holy Spirit has no sacrifice of Christ available to him to solicit a reentry of the Holy Spirit into him.
 
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FreeGrace said:
As disgusting as this sounds, we have to consider the promise Jesus made about those He gives eternal life: they will never perish.

If there were any reason for one who has been given eternal life to perish, then why didn't Jesus make that clear when He made His promise?

He gave no conditions beyond simply receiving eternal life. It would have been negligent to leave out anything that could result in perishing. And Jesus clearly was never negligent.
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The way I see it, you are correct that there is no one Scripture verse recording Jesus specifically stating what you are asking the OSNAS view to present. I submit, however, that the Bible is not designed to be taken on a single verse but in its entirety and there is plenty of Scripture references that have been presented from Jesus' words as well as Paul's and others' to point to what you are asking for.
 
WIP said:
The way I see it, you are correct that there is no one Scripture verse recording Jesus specifically stating what you are asking the OSNAS view to present. I submit, however, that the Bible is not designed to be taken on a single verse but in its entirety and there is plenty of Scripture references that have been presented from Jesus' words as well as Paul's and others' to point to what you are asking for.
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:clap
 
WIP said:
The way I see it, you are correct that there is no one Scripture verse recording Jesus specifically stating what you are asking the OSNAS view to present. I submit, however, that the Bible is not designed to be taken on a single verse but in its entirety and there is plenty of Scripture references that have been presented from Jesus' words as well as Paul's and others' to point to what you are asking for.
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:clap:clap:clap:thumbsup
 
wondering said:
Hi Dirtfarmer,
I was too busy cooking to answer you, LOL.

Let's see. It was Sunday evening.
Osso Buco with white rice (basmati rice) and a green salad.
NO BREAD.
NO DESERT.
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hello wondering, dirtfrarmer here

OK no bread, maybe, but No desert could be considered a pasquinade.
 
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