Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[FreeGrace]

The verse you refer to often.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

• the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

JLB

Interesting how Scripture can be so mis-read. The gift of God is eternal life. Which exists IN CHRIST.

Rom 6:23 does NOT describe union with Christ as a gift. The gift is eternal life itself.

However, the FACT remains; Jesus' sheep will never perish.

Is it possible for any of His sheep to perish?

 

[FreeGrace]

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Eternal life is being in Christ Jesus, and is God's gift to those who believe.

The gift is eternal life. There is no verse that says "eternal life is being in Christ Jesus" and Rom 6:23 doesn't say it.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

The passage is about fruit production of believers, not "how to stay saved by works".

As long as a person is in Christ, they have eternal life.

No one who has been "marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit" can leave union with Christ.

Unless one simply misunderstands or ignores the obvious meaning of GUARANTEEING OUR INHERITANCE and "for THE DAY OF REDEMPTION in Eph 1:13,14.

If a person who is in Christ, then departs from Christ

Can't happen, because of Eph 1:13,14.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"No one has shown that Jesus meant anything else in John 10:28."

This is disingenuous, because there have been countless responses stating that verse 28 cannot be separated from verse 27.

And what has that proven? Only that the "them" and "they" in v.28 are "His sheep". Nothing more.

The point remains that those who have been given eternal life by Jesus WILL NEVER PERISH.

Does the "and" at the beginning of v.28 somehow change what Jesus said in clear and plain words? No.

So my statement stands. No one has shown that Jesus "meant anything else" other than eternal security in v.28.

You could and should say no one has proven anything else to you, but you cannot make the statement that I quoted above.

How does the word "and" at the beginning of v.28 make Jesus' promise not about eternal security? That's what no one has shown.

Bringing v.27 into the discussion only deals with who are His sheep. But to claim that a requirement for never perishing is to follow Jesus, which is a lifestyle issue over time, is refuted by Jesus' words in John 5:24 where He said that those who believe HAVE eternal life. That shows that lifestyle CANNOT be a requirement for never perishing.

Jesus was clear: reception of eternal life is the sole condition for never perishing.

When John 5:24 and 10:28 are combined, we see that the promise of never perishing is applied the MOMENT one believes in Christ.

In general, I see this theme coming too much from both sides of the issue. There is only one Truth, and we have to accept that we're all making an honest effort to interpret the text we've been Given.

The truth is that those Jesus gives eternal life will never perish. No conditions for recipients to follow. Once eternal life is given, they will never perish, according to Jesus.

Because there are not precise words stating exactly what we require to convince us to change our position, does not mean scripture does not collectively make the statement we are demanding to see. Including John 10:27 with John 10:28 is just one example.

Again, how does v.27 make v.28 NOT about eternal security? That has not been explained.

Bringing in v.27 is an attempt to attenuate the clear promise of eternal security found in v.28.

v.28 is a statement of fact made by Jesus. It seems the implication of what He said is rather uncomfortable for those who think that salvation can be lost. Because Jesus doesn't give anyone an excuse for thinking that.

 

[JLB]

The gift is eternal life. There is no verse that says "eternal life is being in Christ Jesus" and Rom 6:23 doesn't say it.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

• eternal life in Christ Jesus

Can a person have eternal life, who is not "in" Christ?


JLB

 

[JLB]

The passage is about fruit production of believers, not "how to stay saved by works".

No one said anything about being saved by works.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

• If anyone does not abide in Me

"Anyone" is a reference to people who are in Christ.
"he" is a reference to a person in Christ.
"They" is a reference to people who are in Christ.

People who are in Christ, who do not remain in Christ, will be gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned.

If a branch is thrown into the fire and burned, does it still have the life in it, it once had when joined to the vine?

Yes or No?


JLB

 

[Cygnus]

No one said anything about being saved by works.

Excuse me, but I believe you did.

If not then I apologize and ask you to tell us what one must do to be saved....and remain saved.

 

[JLB]

The gift is eternal life. There is no verse that says "eternal life is being in Christ Jesus" and Rom 6:23 doesn't say it.


The passage is about fruit production of believers, not "how to stay saved by works".


No one who has been "marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit" can leave union with Christ.

Unless one simply misunderstands or ignores the obvious meaning of GUARANTEEING OUR INHERITANCE and "for THE DAY OF REDEMPTION in Eph 1:13,14.


Can't happen, because of Eph 1:13,14.

Please write out the scripture, so the words and language of the scripture can be discussed by all who are in this thread.

There is no use in going around in circles, discussing things the scriptures doesn't say, or only a part of the scripture.

Believing is the condition given for eternal life.

That condition must be met for a person to have eternal life, otherwise unbelievers are granted eternal life.

God's seal of approval is given to those who believe, which means trust, commit.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

People who believe, trust and are committed to Jesus Christ, to do what He says, have the promise of the Holy Spirit.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Excuse me, but I believe you did.

If not then I apologize and ask you to tell us what one must do to be saved....and remain saved.

Go ahead and show me which post number where I said people are saved by works.

Then explain, which works you are reffing to:

• The works of the law
• The work that earns
• Dead works

• or the obedience of faith

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26 KJV



JLB

 

[JLB]

Excuse me, but I believe you did.

If not then I apologize and ask you to tell us what one must do to be saved....and remain saved.

Believe.

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29


JLB

 

[reba]

Theology posters...
each of us have an our view of scripture .. We all say the Scripture says.. while we put our spin on what is says.. Your spin my spin it is spin ... Each side wants to cherry pick verses/passages...
Joh_11:35 Jesus wept.
That is all that verse says.. That verse does not say why He wept.....or this is the only time He wept.... Cherry picking a verse pulls it from the context . Context will often tell us the why where how etc...
Lets try and remember God gave us , you and me, the Scriptures He speaks to us through them.. With in the confines of Christianity those verses, cherry picked or context will often touch our spirits indifferent ways and times... He sends His Word..
Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Lets try and express what God is saying to us with out the ego words of ...You are wrong said in one form or another. That is not true... Cant be...
Do not reply to this post in this thread ... We have the TWITS for your complaints.

 

[Cygnus]

Believe.

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29



JLB

There you have it. Belief. Now, how about remaining saved?

 

[reba]

There you have it. Belief. Now, how about remaining saved?

Does the verse say belief or does it say believe

 

[Papa Zoom]

The gift is eternal life. There is no verse that says "eternal life is being in Christ Jesus" and Rom 6:23 doesn't say it.
The passage is about fruit production of believers, not "how to stay saved by works".
No one who has been "marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit" can leave union with Christ.
Unless one simply misunderstands or ignores the obvious meaning of GUARANTEEING OUR INHERITANCE and "for THE DAY OF REDEMPTION in Eph 1:13,14.
Can't happen, because of Eph 1:13,14.

The concept of being "in Christ" is taught throughout the Bible. There are 77 verses that I found. Here are a few.

Rom_3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
1Co_1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1Co_1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gal_3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Eph_2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Col_1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
2Ti_2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti_2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2Ti_3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Keep in mind that I believe that true believers are kept in the faith by the power of God. Someone who is saved is "in Christ" - see especially II Corinthians 2:17. If you are in Christ - "IF" then you are a new creature. You've been changed by the power of the Holy Spirit. The old is gone, gone, gone. The new is here.

You guys endlessly make the same arguments over and over and over. You never say anything new in these threads. You just repeat over and over the same thing. Don't quibble on words. It's concepts that matter.

There is no word in the Bible for Trinity. Are any of you going to argue against the idea of the Holy Trinity? I hope not. In the same way, eternal life is being IN CHRIST. It's a concept taught throughout Scripture. Look, if a person isn't in Christ, they aren't a new creation and if they aren't a new creation, they aren't saved. It's pretty easy.

Are we eternally saved? Some say no, I say yes. Salvation happens once. Then you are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Some disagree with my position.

So what. Disagreeing doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong. How long can you hammer the same nail into a piece of wood?

Why must you be right? You both (I mean both sides of the argument and I'm NOT referring to anyone in particular) must have the last word?

Yes, I'm ranting. Just make your case, then move on. Don't you tire of these endless repetitions?

 

[Cygnus]

Does the verse say belief or does it say believe

Why would that matter? In other words, I fail to see your point from so short a reply.

 

[Papa Zoom]

And JUST TO BE CLEAR: You cannot walk away from following Christ and STILL BE SAVED. That is because you WERE NEVER SAVED to begin with. Walking away from Christ is NOT following Him.

This is (this meaning walking away) is a troubling aspect of this argument as I know people who served in ministry for years and then turned their back on it. I have more questions than answers regarding this part of the issue.

 

[Cygnus]

The concept of being "in Christ" is taught throughout the Bible. There are 77 verses that I found. Here are a few.

Rom_3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
1Co_1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1Co_1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gal_3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Eph_2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Col_1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
2Ti_2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti_2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2Ti_3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Keep in mind that I believe that true believers are kept in the faith by the power of God. Someone who is saved is "in Christ" - see especially II Corinthians 2:17. If you are in Christ - "IF" then you are a new creature. You've been changed by the power of the Holy Spirit. The old is gone, gone, gone. The new is here.

You guys endlessly make the same arguments over and over and over. You never say anything new in these threads. You just repeat over and over the same thing. Don't quibble on words. It's concepts that matter.

There is no word in the Bible for Trinity. Are any of you going to argue against the idea of the Holy Trinity? I hope not. In the same way, eternal life is being IN CHRIST. It's a concept taught throughout Scripture. Look, if a person isn't in Christ, they aren't a new creation and if they aren't a new creation, they aren't saved. It's pretty easy.

Are we eternally saved? Some say no, I say yes. Salvation happens once. Then you are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Some disagree with my position.

So what. Disagreeing doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong. How long can you hammer the same nail into a piece of wood?

Why must you be right? You both (I mean both sides of the argument and I'm NOT referring to anyone in particular) must have the last word?

Yes, I'm ranting. Just make your case, then move on. Don't you tire of these endless repetitions?

I've said several times on this forum...if you can lose your salvation...you already have.
For example you used...Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Despite being saved we often find ourselves walking after the flesh. Does this mean we are now under condemnation? Not in Christ?

I agree with you here when you said..."You guys endlessly make the same arguments over and over and over. You never say anything new in these threads. You just repeat over and over the same thing. Don't quibble on words. It's concepts that matter."

...it's concepts...the context of a passage and not what a persons who drags a verse out of context makes it say.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I've said several times on this forum...if you can lose your salvation...you already have.
For example you used...Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Despite being saved we often find ourselves walking after the flesh. Does this mean we are now under condemnation? Not in Christ?

I agree with you here when you said..."You guys endlessly make the same arguments over and over and over. You never say anything new in these threads. You just repeat over and over the same thing. Don't quibble on words. It's concepts that matter."

...it's concepts...the context of a passage and not what a persons who drags a verse out of context makes it say.

I agree.

 

[JLB]

There you have it. Belief. Now, how about remaining saved?

Can you present a verse that teaches us the condition for being saved, changes and no longer requires any condition?

 

[Cygnus]

And JUST TO BE CLEAR: You cannot walk away from following Christ and STILL BE SAVED. That is because you WERE NEVER SAVED to begin with. Walking away from Christ is NOT following Him.

This is (this meaning walking away) is a troubling aspect of this argument as I know people who served in ministry for years and then turned their back on it. I have more questions than answers regarding this part of the issue.

I can agree with that...there is even scriptural support.
But, I do believe there are instances where a true believer...can be deceived due to life events, situations, persuasions etc to deny Christ. I would say they were never saved is the norm and the latter is an exception to the norm.

 

[Cygnus]

Can you present a verse that teaches us the condition for being saved, changes and no longer requires any condition?

Well, we got to back up a little bit in our soteriology. God saves us...we have no part in our salvation. God chooses us, regenerates us, gives us the ability to believe... It's not us JLB.
There is no condition for being saved.