Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[atpollard]

They both seem to state that man cannot exercise his free will to choose to serve God.
However, the scriptures that I posted very clearly indicate that no one is totally incapable of choosing to submit to God.

It seems to me that both state a fact about the end result. As a Calvinist, "I" would not say that they CANNOT choose to serve God (although that is the end result), but that they WILL not choose to serve God. That is why the fact of Adam's Curse and Man's fallen nature is so vital. I believe the thoroughness of human corruption is testified to amply in scripture as is the consequence of this corrupt human nature. Man does not choose to seek God, God chooses to draw man to himself. Monergism not Synergism.

I offer Romans 3:9-11 NIV
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.

I know this is typically thrown up as a 'proof text' that people are totally corrupt, however, if you will indulge me, I would like to point to something completely different. Note in verse 9 that this "power of sin" applies to BOTH Jews and Gentiles ... The World, all mankind, everyone. Note in verse 11 that the result of this sin is not that men have no free will to be able to seek God (as you and others charge Calvinism teaches), but Romans 3:11 says that no one SEEKS God. Everyone has free will. Everyone exercises their free will. NO ONE (Romans 3:11) chooses to seek God with their sin corrupted free will.

Which brings us back to John 6:44 NIV (“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.") which says nothing about free will (one way or another) and is a simple statement of fact. No one means no one in both Romans 3:11 and John 6:44.

[Just for the record, I am avoiding getting into the whole of the 5 points of Tulip and am trying to focus on just the first point (Depravity). Without understand what that IS and what that IS NOT, the rest is just arguing in circles.]

 

[Runner]

I. Saved from what?

A. Saved from death.
B. Saved from Hell?

No, saved from physical death.​

III. How does one “get” into eternal life?

C. It is given to those who believe in Jesus. (John 3:16)​

D. It is given to those who do the good works for which they were created.
E. It cannot be earned by doing good works but, it will not be given to anyone who does not do​

good works.

The debate between OSAS and OS-not-AS inevitably boils down to what someone aptly described as Scripture pong. This is true even at the highest levels of Christian scholarship. The debate always takes the form:

1. My pet verses clearly and unequivocally support my position.
   
2. Your pet verses merely seem to support your position but are in fact ambiguous and can be interpreted in a way consistent with my position.
3. Ergo, I am right and you are wrong.

See, for example, Four Views on the Role of Works at the Final Judgment, https://www.amazon.com/Views-Works-...&qid=1498934565&sr=1-1&keywords=role+of+works, which I heartily recommend as I do all the “multi-view” books.

So that I don’t have to play Scripture pong, can we stipulate that I rely on all the usual verses on which those who hold the OSAS position rely but acknowledge that a very solid case for OS-not-AS can be made on the basis of all the usual verses on which those who hold that position rely?

The OP in this thread, a good example of OS-not-AS, does some curious gyrations with Scripture that I have not seen before. The thrust seems to be that Jesus died to defeat death and confer immortality on all humans, as though “defeating death” were something separate and distinct from “defeating sin” and “defeating Satan.” It is all one package.

Jesus “gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.” Galatians 1:4 (NASB). “He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.” 1 John 3:5 (NASB). “The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.” 1 John 3:8 (NASB). Jesus “gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.” Titus 2:14 (NASB). “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh.” Romans 8:2-3 (NASB).

The debate between OSAS and OS-not-AS inevitably comes down to how one views the Incarnation and Atonement. This is what determines which verses become your pet verses. Did Jesus in fact atone for sin once and for all? Does Jesus save or merely make it possible to be saved? Was this a decisive act by God or just kind of a “jump-start” toward salvation?

It is always important to remember that the Incarnation and Atonement – Salvation - was God’s plan from before the foundation of the world. It is the means by which He chose to glorify Himself. Mankind exists for the Incarnation and Atonement – not vice-versa.

That being the case, it is difficult to see the Incarnation and Atonement as anything other than a decisive act. Are you saved by repenting and turning to Christ, or does being born again just jump-start your path to salvation? Does repenting and turning to Christ save you or merely make it possible for you to be saved if you then fulfill certain conditions for the rest of your life? Is the Good News really the good news or only the "sorta, kinda" conditional good news?

If one is born again, one is a new creature in Christ. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.” 2 Corinthians 5:17 (NASB). One is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. “Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba! Father!’” Galatians 4:6 (NASB). Can one be “unborn” after being born again? Can one evict the Holy Spirit from one’s life, defeat His work even though He is God and the individual is a mere creature?

Paul was convinced (Romans 8:38-39, NASB) “that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” – but we can separate ourselves?

I came to Christ through Campus Crusade, which is an OSAS ministry. I have since studied a great deal of theology. But I’ve never lost the perspective that the Incarnation and Atonement was something huge, spectacular, definitive, liberating, something completely contrary to the logic of the world. Yes, in order to be saved this really is all you have to do!!! OS-not-AS always strikes me as exactly the opposite, just sort of one step up from the Mosaic law: OK, you're washed white as snow, now get back on the treadmill.

If one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, of course one is inevitably going to exhibit at least some of the fruits. If one exhibits none of the fruits, the sincerity of one’s born again experience might be questioned. But even sincere Christian women murder their husbands, sincere Christian men embezzle from their employers or become addicted to pornography. We can grieve the Spirit, sometimes very badly, but can we completely defeat Him? Is He that weak?

If continuing in good works or even continuing to believe is part of the package, isn’t the Atonement something less than an atonement, isn’t Salvation merely conditional salvation, something that is ultimately earned? Why would God forgive my most horrific past sins, wash me white as snow, but then start keeping score all over again?

Even in Campus Crusade, we had some concept of the unforgivable sin. Most people (I think) understand this as attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to Satan. Even as a member of the OSAS camp, I can see how such a definitive, unequivocal act of apostasy might break the bond of salvation: "My supposed salvation in Jesus was really from the Devil." But short of that, it is difficult to believe that God’s plan to glorify Himself, to defeat sin and Satan once and for all, was something as iffy and legalistic as OS-not-AS.

To borrow a line from Jack Nicholson, it strikes me that those who insist upon OS-not-AS “can’t handle" OSAS. It’s just too radical. It’s just not “fair” as the world views “fair” – but isn’t this precisely the point that the Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard (Matthew 20) makes?

If one wants to live his or her life on the basis of OS-not-AS, fine – what could be wrong with that? But does anyone who sincerely accepted Christ on the basis of OSAS ever – ever – use that freedom as a license to sin? Not in my experience, and didn’t Paul fully address this in Romans 6 anyway? No, the liberating freedom of OSAS makes the Gospel the real Good News and freedom in Christ real freedom. “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.” John 8:36 (NASB). “Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.” Romans 8:1-2 (NASB).

 

[Nathan]

1 Corinthians 1
18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."
20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth.
27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

I think that people who do not hold to one belief are unsteady. There can be no way that the Spirit of God in a man cannot know the truth, but stay in a mind of doubt.

Sometimes we resist the truth do to human rationalization. When the word of God is read in plain context, taking all passages in at face value - not esteeming some higher than others - then truth is seen.

The discussion comes down to the simple descision - are you in the faith or not? Do you have the Spirit of God or not?

If you have to convince yourself, or even worse have someone convince you, then maybe you are trying to reason things on a human level instead of listening to God.

 

[FreeGrace]

See folks? Freegrace doctrine has no explanation for Jesus' own words in John 5:24 NASB that say the one who presently believes has eternal life

Untrue. Free grace theology understands that when one believes NOW, or PRESENTLY, or CURRENTLY, they are promised 3 things:
1. they HAVE right now, presently, eternal life
2. they WILL NOT be condemned (this is a future tense action)
3. they HAVE PASSED FROM death to life.

So, from the moment one believes, which is "present tense" WHEN they believe, they are promised these 3 things from Jesus. This indicates that Jesus gives eternal life (John 10:28) WHEN they first believed. As a result of receiving eternal life, Jesus promises that they will never perish in 10:28. In 5:24 He promises that they WILL NOT be condemned, which is the same as saying they will never perish.

He also promises that they have passed from death to life. This is a past tense action from believing.

(Freegrace doctrine says you do NOT have to be presently believing to have eternal life).

Again, untrue. The point is that WHEN one believes, that is the "present tense" for them WHEN they are believing. I call it initial faith in Christ. It is a point in time when one believes. So, that point in time is present tense for the one believing.

And from that point in time presently believing, they are promised that
1. they have eternal life (Jn 5:24)
2. they will never perish (Jn 10:28)
3. they will not be condemned (Jn 5:24)
4. they have passed from death to life (Jn 5:24)

How is this not eternal security?

So it has to invent an argument for an abuse of the present tense verb to get out of the jam it's in, which makes it a Calvinist OSAS passage

I've invented nothing. I have noted that your ideas of the present tense turn presently believing into believing into the future, which it doesn't mean.

which we know I'm not making because I reject any form of OSAS and would hardly adopt such an argument, lol.

I, too, reject much of Calvinism, just as I do much of Arminianism.

But I do give credit for Freegrace doctrine not making Jesus' words in John 5:24 NASB 'not really' mean what they say. But I have the feeling that is coming.

Well, feelings are not objective, but subjective. And, many times, just wrong. Jesus' words in John 5:24 actuallydo mean exactly what they say. He promises 3 things that apply WHEN one believes. At that moment.

 

[Nathan]

Does "Free Grace Theology" believe that Jesus stated we have to feed and drink of Him?

Jhn 6:53-54
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day

 

[FreeGrace]

Does "Free Grace Theology" believe that Jesus stated we have to feed and drink of Him?

Jhn 6:53-54
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day

Free grace theology uses the direct language of Scripture rather than metaphors and figures of speech, for clarity.

We have to believe in Christ for eternal life. Those who don't believe don't receive eternal life. Those who do believe are given eternal life when they believe.

 

[Nathan]

Free grace theology uses the direct language of Scripture rather than metaphors and figures of speech, for clarity.

We have to believe in Christ for eternal life. Those who don't believe don't receive eternal life. Those who do believe are given eternal life when they believe.

So the theology does or doesn't believe John 6:53-54?

 

[atpollard]

So the theology does or doesn't believe John 6:53-54?

Isn't that a bit of a trick question? Sort of like "Do you still beat your wife?"

Are you asking if "Free Grace Theolgy" believes:

Jesus said the words in John 6:53-54?
The words in John 6:53-54 are true?
What YOU believe John 6:53-54 means is what it actually means?
(All of the above?)

Just to answer your question, since you asked it, I have no idea what Free Grace Theology believes, but I do not believe that Jesus was making literal cannibalism a prerequisite for eternal life. I think there might be some sort of a metaphor going on.

 

[JLB]

Isn't that a bit of a trick question? Sort of like "Do you still beat your wife?"

Are you asking if "Free Grace Theolgy" believes:

Jesus said the words in John 6:53-54?
The words in John 6:53-54 are true?
What YOU believe John 6:53-54 means is what it actually means?
(All of the above?)

Just to answer your question, since you asked it, I have no idea what Free Grace Theology believes, but I do not believe that Jesus was making literal cannibalism a prerequisite for eternal life. I think there might be some sort of a metaphor going on.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Do you believe these words of Jesus?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

So the theology does or doesn't believe John 6:53-54?

Of course it does.

 

[atpollard]

Do you believe these words of Jesus?

I believe ALL the words of scripture as all are God breathed.
I do not understand what your response has to do with my comment that you quoted.

Just for the record, I hold the 'Free Grace' view that one can be 'born from above' and either return to a reprobate life style or contine to live as if nothing had changed, and still go to heaven at the final judgement as unbiblical. What I believe is that salvation is monergistic, a work of God on behalf of a people who are blind to the gospel, dead in their sin, and born with a heart of stone. Just as a corpse contributes nothing to its Resurection, man is simply the grateful recipient of a new life. The act of having a heart of stone (dead) replaced with a heart of flesh (living) that now has a desire to obey the Laws of God written on it is not something that man has the power to undo, nor is it something that can happen with no resulting change in lifestyle of the recipient. I believe that those 'born from above' have been sealed with the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing the inheritance. No man has the power to evict the Holy Spirit or negate God's guarantee. On the flip side, it is inconcievable that the new man with God literally living inside of him can continue to live like the old man. I believe that when we are saved by grace, through faith (not of ourselves), that God has indeed really prepared, in advance, works for us to do and walk in that are for our good and God's glory. I believe that the man 'born from above' will walk in those works which God has prepared. I believe that the arm of God is not short. God is able to finish what he starts. When Jesus promises to lose none, that is exactly what he means. When Jesus says we are safe in God's hand and no one can snatch us out, that is exactly what he means. I also believe that not everyone that at first glance LOOKS like a Christian or claims to be a Christian is 'born from above'. There are 'Tares' that look like they are Christian for a while, but in time their fruit matures and reveals their true nature. There are 'Wolves in sheep clothes' who deliberately disguise what is really on the inside so they can prey on the unsuspecting. Then there are those who have a 'dead faith' (as James calls it). They say many of the right things and they believe that they are 'born from above', but they have a faith that cannot save, so they are not actually 'born from above' at all. They are just 'make believe Christians'. Then there those who are DOING all of the 'born from above' things without Jesus. "Lord, did we not ... in your name". and yet Jesus replies "I never knew you."

You asked about what I believe, so I told you. [verses omitted since I have no need to 'prove' my beliefs ... I believe what I say I believe.]

(PS. "Do you believe these words of Jesus?" is a bit of a cheap question to ask on a Christian Theology board. It is an implied personal assault on the person you are conversing with. The choice is not a binary "agree with you and Jesus" or "disagree with you and Jesus".)

 

[JLB]

I believe ALL the words of scripture as all are God breathed.
I do not understand what your response has to do with my comment that you quoted.

Just for the record, I hold the 'Free Grace' view that one can be 'born from above' and either return to a reprobate life style or contine to live as if nothing had changed, and still go to heaven at the final judgement as unbiblical. What I believe is that salvation is monergistic, a work of God on behalf of a people who are blind to the gospel, dead in their sin, and born with a heart of stone. Just as a corpse contributes nothing to its Resurection, man is simply the grateful recipient of a new life. The act of having a heart of stone (dead) replaced with a heart of flesh (living) that now has a desire to obey the Laws of God written on it is not something that man has the power to undo, nor is it something that can happen with no resulting change in lifestyle of the recipient. I believe that those 'born from above' have been sealed with the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing the inheritance. No man has the power to evict the Holy Spirit or negate God's guarantee. On the flip side, it is inconcievable that the new man with the God literally living inside of him can continue to live like the old man. I believe that when we are saved by grace, through faith (not of ourselves), that God has indeed really prepared, in advance, works for us to do and walk in that are for our good and God's glory. I believe that the man 'born from above' will walk in those works which God has prepared. I believe that the arm of God is not short. God is able to finish what he starts. When Jesus promises to lose none, that is exactly what he means. When Jesus says we are safe in God's hand and no one can snatch us out, that is exactly what he means. I also believe that not everyone that at first glance LOOKS like a Christian or claims to be a Christian is 'born from above'. There are 'Tares' that look like they are Christian for a while, but in time their fruit matures and reveals their true nature. There are 'Wolves in sheep clothes' who deliberately disguise what is really on the inside so they can prey on the unsuspecting. Then there are those who have a 'dead faith' (as James calls it). They say many of the right things and they believe that they are 'born from above', but they have a faith that cannot save, so they are not actually 'born from above' at all. They are just 'make believe Christians'. Then there those who are DOING all of the 'born from above' things without Jesus. "Lord, did we not ... in your name". and hey Jesus replies "I never knew you."

You asked about what I believe, so I told you. [verses omitted since I have no need to 'prove' my beliefs ... I believe what I say I believe.]
(PS. "Do you believe these words of Jesus?" is a really cheap question to ask on a Christian Theology board. It is an implied personal assault on the person you are conversing with. The choice is not a binary "agree with you and Jesus" or "disagree with you and Jesus".)

Good, if you say you believe these words, then I believe you do, and we are in agreement.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Good, if you say you believe these words, then I believe you do, and we are in agreement.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

JLB

The key to agreeing or believing any verse is to understand what any verse means. I don't agree with your understanding of any of the verses provided that have been given to support your claims. But that doesn't mean I don't believe or agree with the words of the verses.

 

[atpollard]

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

JLB

Do not conflate 'cause' and 'effect':

Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [fn]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Good works are the 'fruit' of our being saved and not the 'root'. Our salvation is rooted in grace through faith (both a gift from God). Our salvation yields a fruit of good works 'which God prepared beforehand' ... we just need to follow the path by following the shepherd who is calling and guiding us. (John 10:27)

 

[JLB]

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29



Do not conflate 'cause' and 'effect':

Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [fn]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Good works are the 'fruit' of our being saved and not the 'root'. Our salvation is rooted in grace through faith (both a gift from God). Our salvation yields a fruit of good works 'which God prepared beforehand' ... we just need to follow the path by following the shepherd who is calling and guiding us. (John 10:27)

I trust you when you said you believe this scripture.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

We agree!

Those who have done good will be those who receive eternal life.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The key to agreeing or believing any verse is to understand what any verse means. I don't agree with your understanding of any of the verses provided that have been given to support your claims. But that doesn't mean I don't believe or agree with the words of the verses.

Believe is the condition for eternal life.

You will have to explain how the condition for eternal life, "believe", is no longer required, in which eternal life becomes "unconditional".

At what point in the life of a person does eternal life go from being conditional on believing, to "unconditional", having no condition anymore?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Believe is the condition for eternal life.

You will have to explain how the condition for eternal life, "believe", is no longer required, in which eternal life becomes "unconditional".

At what point in the life of a person does eternal life go from being conditional on believing, to "unconditional", having no condition anymore?


JLB

In the thread, OSAS winning Christ? OSNAS just hanging on? post #64 I already answered this question.

But here it is again:

I have already explained it, but will do so again.

First, Jesus taught WHEN a person receives eternal life in John 5:24, which is WHEN they believe in Him. So, WHEN one presently believes, they presently have eternal life. Agree or disagree?

Second, Jesus taught that those He gives eternal life (which is WHEN they first believe), they will never perish, in John 10:28. Agree or disagree?

So, the gift of eternal life is unconditional WHEN it is given to those who believe. Agree or disagree?

That's the essence of eternal security; WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life, and will NEVER PERISH. Agree or disagree?

Now, please don't ask any more questions in this regard until my questions about agreeing or disagreeing are answered. If there is disagreement, please explain why and provide Scripture that says what is claimed.

At what point in the life of a person does eternal life go from being conditional on believing, to "unconditional", having no condition anymore?
JLB

At the MOMENT one believes in Christ, He says they HAVE eternal life. That's WHEN. Agree or disagree?

Please answer my questions regarding agreement or disagreement for each point.

 

[JLB]

I have already explained it, but will do so again.

First, Jesus taught WHEN a person receives eternal life in John 5:24, which is WHEN they believe in Him. So, WHEN one presently believes, they presently have eternal life. Agree or disagree?

Second, Jesus taught that those He gives eternal life (which is WHEN they first believe), they will never perish, in John 10:28. Agree or disagree?

So, the gift of eternal life is unconditional WHEN it is given to those who believe. Agree or disagree?

That's the essence of eternal security; WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life, and will NEVER PERISH. Agree or disagree?

Now, please don't ask any more questions in this regard until my questions about agreeing or disagreeing are answered. If there is disagreement, please explain why and provide Scripture that says what is claimed.

Your answer here doesn't address the question, I asked.

If Believe is the condition for eternal life, when does this condition no longer apply to a person.

Question: My question that I am asking you is highlighted in Blue.

• At what point in the life of a person does eternal life go from being conditional on believing, to "unconditional", having no condition anymore? [Please refer to scripture]

In other words, If I believed yesterday, then why does the condition no longer apply to today?

JLB

 

[JLB]

So, the gift of eternal life is unconditional WHEN it is given to those who believe. Agree or disagree?

Disagree.

And I don't think you believe this either, since you provided no scripture that says the conition for believing, no longer applies to having eternal life.

Those who are "in Christ", have eternal life, because they believe.

Those who are removed from, disconnected from, Christ, no longer have eternal life.

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Again, eternal life is conditional upon being "In Christ Jesus".

• For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

God's gift to us is being In Christ, conditional upon believing.


12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Here we see the condition of believe, as required for salvation.

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Next we see that the condition is no longer met, in which the person falls away, or departs from Christ.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

A person who chooses to depart from Christ, is no longer In Christ, or connected to Christ, and the eternal life He provides.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Does a branch who has life from a vine, still have the life from the vine, if it disconnected from the vine and burned in the fire?




JLB

 

[Nathan]

Disagree.

And I don't think you believe this either, since you provided no scripture that says the conition for believing, no longer applies to having eternal life.

Those who are "in Christ", have eternal life, because they believe.

Those who are removed from, disconnected from, Christ, no longer have eternal life.

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Again, eternal life is conditional upon being "In Christ Jesus".

• For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

God's gift to us is being In Christ, conditional upon believing.


12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Here we see the condition of believe, as required for salvation.

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Next we see that the condition is no longer met, in which the person falls away, or departs from Christ.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

A person who chooses to depart from Christ, is no longer In Christ, or connected to Christ, and the eternal life He provides.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Does a branch who has life from a vine, still have the life from the vine, if it disconnected from the vine and burned in the fire?




JLB

I know the answer!

The branch no longer has life. Only the vine has life, the branch merely receives life from the vine. If the branch is no longer receiveing life from the vine because it's cut off, then it no longer has life - regardless if it had it before.