Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[reba]

Why would that matter? In other words, I fail to see your point from so short a reply.

I am at the store is not the same as i will be at the store or i was at the store... belief is not the same as believe.
My point here is not either teaching osas or nonosas .. it is what does the Word say..

Please dont get the idea i am saying you are satan cause i am not.. look at the subtil change here..
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

 

[WIP]

I've said several times on this forum...if you can lose your salvation...you already have.

So, are you saying you can lose salvation? I thought you usually argued that one can't lose salvation? You're confusing me or I'm confusing you with someone else.

 

[reba]

You guys endlessly make the same arguments over and over and over. You never say anything new in these threads. You just repeat over and over the same thing. Don't quibble on words. It's concepts that matter.

 

[Cygnus]

So, are you saying you can lose salvation? I thought you usually argued that one can't lose salvation? You're confusing me or I'm confusing you with someone else.

WIP, I really don't intend to respond to you...I feel you'll only find some reason to delete my response.

 

[Cygnus]

Does the verse say belief or does it say believe

To believe in something is to have belief in something.....has nothing to do with being in a store.

 

[WIP]

WIP, I really don't intend to respond to you...I feel you'll only find some reason to delete my response.

Your accusation is unfounded. I will not abuse my authority here in that way. To do so would open me up to reprimand by the rest of the staff. If you would just prefer not to answer, that is okay but to be clear, not everyone is out to trap you. I asked because you seem to be saying two different things and I was hoping you could clarify. As I said, I might be confusing you with someone else in which case I would apologize for my error.

 

[FreeGrace]

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

• eternal life in Christ Jesus

Can a person have eternal life, who is not "in" Christ?
JLB

No one ever has had eternal life who wasn't in Him.

However, this is the real issue:

Jesus said:
"I give believers/My sheep eternal life and they shall never perish." John 10:28

v.28 tells to whom Jesus gives.
v.28 tells us WHAT Jesus gives.
v.28 tells us the RESULT of what Jesus GIVES to WHOM.

Jesus gives to His sheep. Those are believers.
Jesus gives eternal life to believers, who are recipients of eternal life.
Recipients of eternal life will never perish.

This isn't even close to arguable. Jesus spoke in plain language here. No metaphors, no figures of speech. Just straight talk about eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

No one said anything about being saved by works.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

• If anyone does not abide in Me

"Anyone" is a reference to people who are in Christ.
"he" is a reference to a person in Christ.
"They" is a reference to people who are in Christ.

People who are in Christ, who do not remain in Christ, will be gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned.

If a branch is thrown into the fire and burned, does it still have the life in it, it once had when joined to the vine?

Yes or No?
JLB

I've explained this quite enough.

And this isn't even the real issue.

The real issue is what Jesus said:

Jesus said:
"I give believers/My sheep eternal life and they shall never perish." John 10:28

v.28 tells to whom Jesus gives.
v.28 tells us WHAT Jesus gives.
v.28 tells us the RESULT of what Jesus GIVES to WHOM.

Jesus gives to His sheep. Those are believers.
Jesus gives eternal life to believers, who are recipients of eternal life.
Recipients of eternal life will never perish.

This isn't even close to arguable. Jesus spoke in plain language here. No metaphors, no figures of speech. Just straight talk about eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

Please write out the scripture, so the words and language of the scripture can be discussed by all who are in this thread.

John 15 is about fruit production.
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

There it is: plain as day. Fruit production.

But this isn't the issue. The issue is what Jesus said in plain language in John 10:28.

Jesus said:

"I give believers/My sheep eternal life and they shall never perish." John 10:28

v.28 tells to whom Jesus gives.

v.28 tells us WHAT Jesus gives.

v.28 tells us the RESULT of what Jesus GIVES to WHOM.

Jesus gives to His sheep. These are believers.

Jesus gives eternal life to believers, who are recipients of eternal life.

Recipients of eternal life will never perish.

This isn't even close to arguable. Jesus spoke in plain language here. No metaphors, no figures of speech. Just straight talk about eternal security.

There is no use in going around in circles, discussing things the scriptures doesn't say, or only a part of the scripture.

Believing is the condition given for eternal life.

This has never been the debate.

That condition must be met for a person to have eternal life, otherwise unbelievers are granted eternal life.

Why ignore the fact that eternal life is GIVEN WHEN a person first believes, as Jesus indicated in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Therefore, WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life. And Jesus says they shall never perish in John 10:28.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

I am surprised these verses are being quoted since they also guarantee eternal security for "having believed", which is a PAST TENSE of believe. From that single moment of believing,
1. one is sealed with the Holy Spirit
2. one is guaranteed their inheritance for the day of redemption
3. one is God's possession.

People who believe, trust and are committed to Jesus Christ, to do what He says, have the promise of the Holy Spirit.
JLB

No, they don't. Where does the Bible say the Holy Spirit is a promise for believers. No where.

Believers HAVE the Holy Spirit. He indwells them.

The promise that Jesus made in John 16:14 is fulfilled WHEN one believes.

Gal 3
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

 

[Gregg T]

Can you present a verse that teaches us the condition for being saved, changes and no longer requires any condition?

There is a difference between:
1. entering into Christ, and
2. remaining in Christ

as here:
1. Joh 3:16 a. ". . . that everyone believing into Him"
2. Joh 3:16 b. "should not perish, but have everlasting life." (see Jn 3:18, Jn 5:24, Jn 6:40, Jn 6:47, Jn 10:28, Jn 11:25-26)

 

[JLB]

There is a difference between:
1. entering into Christ, and
2. remaining in Christ

as here:
1. Joh 3:16 a. ". . . that everyone believing into Him"
2. Joh 3:16 b. "should not perish, but have everlasting life." (see Jn 3:18a, Jn 5:24, Jn 6:40, Jn 6:47, Jn 11:25-26)

You have several scriptural references, but what does the scripture itself actually say?

John 5:24 for example.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

The condition Jesus gave for eternal life is: hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life.

Believe is clearly the condition for eternal life.

I have not seen any scripture that teaches us we can stop believing in Jesus Christ and still have eternal life; still remain in Him.


In Christ = Eternal life
Removed from Christ, disconnected from Christ = Cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Eternal life is only found in Christ.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


JLB

 

[Gregg T]

You have several scriptural references, but what does the scripture itself actually say?

John 5:24 for example.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

The condition Jesus gave for eternal life is: hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life.

Believe is clearly the condition for eternal life.

I have not seen any scripture that teaches us we can stop believing in Jesus Christ and still have eternal life; still remain in Him.


In Christ = Eternal life
Removed from Christ, disconnected from Christ = Cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Eternal life is only found in Christ.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


JLB

But what does Jn 5:24 say?

The one hearing Christ's words and believing in the Father who sent Him:
1. has (present tense, at that time) eternal life,
2. and will (future tense, beyond the present) not come into judgment.
3. but (ἀλλὰ) has passed (μεταβέβηκεν perfect active indicative) out from death and into life.

ἀλλὰ is a superaddition to what proceeded, further qualifying it by what follows.
The perfect active indicative speaks of an action in the past where the result of that action continues.

What does Jn 5:24 mean?

The one who has eternal life - has passed out of death into life, for which action the result continues, the result being that he will not in the future come into judgment.

- - -

And that by grace through faith and not by works.

 

[Nathan]

Not that I disagree with your basic conclusions (those who do not believe are not 'in Christ'), but just for my benefit, would you have a verse that is not part of a parable or metaphor where I didn't have to make assumptions about seeds or sticks?

Actually, the metaphors using seeds and sticks are probably the most direct and 'human' way of putting forth a spiritual fact.

They use 'known' constant that God created and set in place. Nothing we do can change the way a literal seed grows and how a literal branch lives.

So by observing the laws of God in nature, we can easily understand spiritual truths. The problem arises when we do not like what they represent, and think that they contradict something else God does. But the reality is they are the most constant thing that has been happening before man walked the face of the earth.

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

We don't have to assume that a branch on a tree receives its life from the tree. And we don't have to assume that when it is cut off it has no life anymore. Sometimes the most obvious things are what we trip over.

 

[Nathan]

And JUST TO BE CLEAR: You cannot walk away from following Christ and STILL BE SAVED. That is because you WERE NEVER SAVED to begin with. Walking away from Christ is NOT following Him.

This is (this meaning walking away) is a troubling aspect of this argument as I know people who served in ministry for years and then turned their back on it. I have more questions than answers regarding this part of the issue.

I've never understood this argument that is made for those who walk away from Christ. To say that a person who professes genuine faith in Christ was not saved is saying a person can know who God accepts. On the flip side, it also implies that 'they' did not do something. It makes people think that they have to do something in order to make sure they are really saved.

Someone who knows another who truly confessed Christ as their Savior, then sees them walk away and believes they were not really saved to begin with, placed salvation on the shoulders of the individual - not God.

It falls back into the thinking of having to make one thing fit another even when it doesn't. God is not the author of confusion so there should be no confusion when it comes to understanding the faith - why some stay, and why some leave.

 

[Nathan]

Well, we got to back up a little bit in our soteriology. God saves us...we have no part in our salvation. God chooses us, regenerates us, gives us the ability to believe... It's not us JLB.
There is no condition for being saved.

Your absolutely correct! It's all God. We were dead when He saved us. In slavery to sin.

What's beautiful about it is we have an exact picture of this with the Children of Israel and how God saved them out of Egypt.

What we do know from that example is that God later destroyed those who did not believe. He blotted their names out of the book.

See, God saves us - but He does it so we can believe. If after being set free from sin, we choose to stay in it, or go back to it, then God has no obligation to bring us into His Kingdom.

He has told us, over and over, who it is that will be in His kingdom. If we choose to not want it, then it's on us - not Him. God saves us for the express reason of giving us a choice to want Him or want satan.

 

[Cygnus]

If after being set free from sin, we choose to stay in it, or go back to it, then God has no obligation to bring us into His Kingdom.

God had no obligation to save anyone. But that's besides the point. What you're telling me...and I hope I get this right...is that if you are a true believer and through happenstance something rattles your faith seriously.....and you walk away from Jesus then God has no obligation to bring you into His Kingdom

 

[Nathan]

God had no obligation to save anyone. But that's besides the point. What you're telling me...and I hope I get this right...is that if you are a true believer and through happenstance something rattles your faith seriously.....and you walk away from Jesus then God has no obligation to bring you into His Kingdom

That's not what I'm saying. My definition of happenstance does not account for it.

Not if, but when, a person who has believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, knowing He saved them from sin - they then turn away from Him because they choose sin instead of Christ - God has no obligation to bring them into the kingdom.

1 Timothy 4:1 (ESV)
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

In order to say these people were not in the faith would mean you have to rewrite the Bible. Humans are either devoted to God or satan. There is no middle ground.

Before God saved us we were slaves to sin. After He set us free we were enslaved to Him.

The passage above clearly states the ones leaving the faith are turning to devote themselves to satan - therefore, they were not before leaving the faith - which means God had set them free.

God is not going to bring someone into the kingdom who does not want to serve Him, even after being set free to do so, who then turns and wants to be slaves of sin again.

 

[JLB]

But what does Jn 5:24 say?

The one hearing Christ's words and believing in the Father who sent Him:
1. has (present tense, at that time) eternal life,
2. and will (future tense, beyond the present) not come into judgment.
3. but (ἀλλὰ) has passed (μεταβέβηκεν perfect active indicative) out from death and into life.

ἀλλὰ is a superaddition to what proceeded, further qualifying it by what follows.
The perfect active indicative speaks of an action in the past where the result of that action continues.

What does Jn 5:24 mean?

The one who has eternal life - has passed out of death into life, for which action the result continues, the result being that he will not in the future come into judgment.

- - -

And that by grace through faith and not by works.

Yes future tense beyond the present, will all who believe receive eternal life.

Which means we now have the hope of inheriting eternal life.

But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:4-7

• become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Not by works of righteousness, but by faith, the obedience of faith.

What does John 5:24 mean?

It's takes on a fuller meaning when read in context.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29

all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth:

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

As heirs, we have the hope of eternal life.

Those who have done good, to the resurrection of life: eternal life


JLB

 

[Gregg T]

Yes future tense beyond the present, will all who believe receive eternal life.

Which means we now have the hope of inheriting eternal life.

But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:4-7

• become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Not by works of righteousness, but by faith, the obedience of faith.

What does John 5:24 mean?

It's takes on a fuller meaning when read in context.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29

all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth:

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

As heirs, we have the hope of eternal life.

Those who have done good, to the resurrection of life: eternal life


JLB

You did not address the content of my previous post, neither my assertions nor the Gk. grammar.

In post #2272 [edited: now #2271 as of 07-11-17], I provided an exegesis of Jn 5:24 based on the Greek language and its grammar, not according to my predisposition, but what the grammar necessitates as an interpretation / understanding

The Greek grammar explains that the result of passing from death to life is a continuing result - perfect active indicative.

Jn 5:24 identifies the minimun duration of that continuing result In 2 ways:
1. It surpasses the time of Judgement - "does not come into judgment",
2. It extends into eternity - "everlasting".

The meaning of Jn 5:24 is that upon believing God . . . at the moment when that belief comes into existence . . . the believer passas from death to life; and the type / kind of live that God gives is everlasting, eternal, into the ages, without end.

~ ~ ~

Here is another verse:

1Jn 3:14 We know (perfect active indicative) that we have passed (perfect active indicative) from death to life because we love the brothers. The one not loving the brother remains in death.

Perfect Tense
The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm

. . . then you can remember that the perfect tense has to do with completed action. But the perfect tense is a primary tense because it emphasizes the present, or ongoing result of a completed action.
http://www.ntgreek.net/lesson23.htm#perfect

Pass from death to life - the completed action.
The continuing result - does not come into judgment.
Why, because the kind of life that God gives is eternal, everlasting; and it begins at the conception of faith in the heart of the one then believing in God, the one believing into Christ.

 

[Gregg T]

The verse in question is Jn 5:24, and in responce to my post #2272 [edited: now post #2271 as of 07-11-17] you said:

Which means we now have the hope of inheriting eternal life.

First, Jn 5:24 does not address 'hope' or 'inheriting' as regards to the life that God gives; so that statement is off the wall.

And it has not stuck to the wall in that you said 'now we have . . .' but Jn 5:24 says "has (present tense) eternal life" . . . and even that regarding someone before His Crucifixion and Resurrection.