Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[JLB]

I know the answer!

The branch no longer has life. Only the vine has life, the branch merely receives life from the vine. If the branch is no longer receiveing life from the vine because it's cut off, then it no longer has life - regardless if it had it before.

 

[FreeGrace]

Your answer here doesn't address the question, I asked.

If Believe is the condition for eternal life, when does this condition no longer apply to a person.

When they receive eternal life. Because Jesus promised that they will never perish. So, at the MOMENT one receives eternal life, they will never perish.

Question: My question that I am asking you is highlighted in Blue.

• At what point in the life of a person does eternal life go from being conditional on believing, to "unconditional", having no condition anymore? [Please refer to scripture]

JLB

At NO point in the life of a person does eternal life change in any way. The question is flawed.

But, ONCE eternal life is given by Jesus, their eternal destiny is SETTLED. Agree or disagree?

 

[FreeGrace]

Disagree.

And I don't think you believe this either, since you provided no scripture that says the conition for believing, no longer applies to having eternal life.

I just answered your question in my previous post.

I think the better question is providing Scripture that actually says that one who has eternal life can lose it.

Those who are "in Christ", have eternal life, because they believe.

There are no quote marks about being in union with Christ in Scripture.

Those who are removed from, disconnected from, Christ, no longer have eternal life.

This has never been proven, and the verses provided in defense of such an idea aren't even related to being taken out of union with Christ.

 

[FreeGrace]

I know the answer!

The branch no longer has life. Only the vine has life, the branch merely receives life from the vine. If the branch is no longer receiveing life from the vine because it's cut off, then it no longer has life - regardless if it had it before.

Isn't what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life clear? They WILL NEVER PERISH.

What else could He have meant?

He went from receiving eternal life to never perishing. No conditions between receiving and never perishing.

It seems that FACT isn't being taken into account.

 

[JLB]

When they receive eternal life. Because Jesus promised that they will never perish. So, at the MOMENT one receives eternal life, they will never perish.

I see you saying the same thing, with no scripture, and that is your choice, but just because you keep saying the same thing, doesn't answer my question.

• At what point in the life of a person does eternal life go from being conditional on believing, to "unconditional", having no condition anymore? [Please refer to scripture]

In other words, If I believed yesterday, then why does the condition no longer apply to today?

JLB

 

[JLB]

Isn't what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life clear? They WILL NEVER PERISH.

What else could He have meant?

He went from receiving eternal life to never perishing. No conditions between receiving and never perishing.

It seems that FACT isn't being taken into account.

• At what point in the life of a person does eternal life go from being conditional on believing, to "unconditional", having no condition anymore? [Please refer to scripture]

JLB

 

[JLB]

When they receive eternal life. Because Jesus promised that they will never perish. So, at the MOMENT one receives eternal life, they will never perish.


At NO point in the life of a person does eternal life change in any way. The question is flawed.

But, ONCE eternal life is given by Jesus, their eternal destiny is SETTLED. Agree or disagree?

God's gift to us is being In Christ, conditional upon believing.


12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Here we see the condition of believe, as required for salvation.

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Next we see that the condition is no longer met, in which the person falls away, or departs from Christ.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

A person who chooses to depart from Christ, is no longer In Christ, or connected to Christ, and the eternal life He provides.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Does a branch who has life from a vine, still have the life from the vine, if it disconnected from the vine and burned in the fire?




JLB

 

[atpollard]

God's gift to us is being In Christ, conditional upon believing.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Here we see the condition of believe, as required for salvation.

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Next we see that the condition is no longer met, in which the person falls away, or departs from Christ.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

A person who chooses to depart from Christ, is no longer In Christ, or connected to Christ, and the eternal life He provides.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Does a branch who has life from a vine, still have the life from the vine, if it disconnected from the vine and burned in the fire?

JLB

Not that I disagree with your basic conclusions (those who do not believe are not 'in Christ'), but just for my benefit, would you have a verse that is not part of a parable or metaphor where I didn't have to make assumptions about seeds or sticks?

 

[FreeGrace]

I see you saying the same thing, with no scripture, and that is your choice, but just because you keep saying the same thing, doesn't answer my question.

I answered your question. "When they receive eternal life." How is that not an answer?

At what point in the life of a person does eternal life go from being conditional on believing, to "unconditional", having no condition anymore? [Please refer to scripture]

Sure.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Those who hear and believe HAVE eternal life. That means WHEN they first believed they HAVE eternal life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Jesus is the One who gives eternal life. And the result is that they will never perish. He said so.

In respect to your question, it is a confused one. Because eternal life doesn't "go from being whatever" to "whatever". Eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23.

So it's difficult to really understand what you're asking in the first place. Maybe re-wording it to make more sense.

I do know this: eternal life is conditioned upon believing in Jesus Christ, per these 9 verses:

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[JLB]

I answered your question. "When they receive eternal life." How is that not an answer?

Because I didn't ask when they receive eternal life.

• At what point in the life of a person does eternal life go from being conditional on believing, to "unconditional", having no condition anymore? [Please refer to scripture]

Here is my answer.

It doesn't; Eternal life never becomes unconditional, as it always is conditional upon believing.

If you disagree, then please give us a scripture, that teaches us there is no condition from God for receiving eternal life in Christ Jesus.

If there is no condition upon receiving eternal life from God, then all the world is saved and has eternal life, because that is God's will, that no one should perish, but all come to repentance.


So the question remains:

• At what point in the life of a person does eternal life go from being conditional on believing, to "unconditional", having no condition anymore? [Please refer to scripture]

JLB

 

[JLB]

I answered your question. "When they receive eternal life." How is that not an answer?


Sure.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Those who hear and believe HAVE eternal life. That means WHEN they first believed they HAVE eternal life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Jesus is the One who gives eternal life. And the result is that they will never perish. He said so.

In respect to your question, it is a confused one. Because eternal life doesn't "go from being whatever" to "whatever". Eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23.

So it's difficult to really understand what you're asking in the first place. Maybe re-wording it to make more sense.

I do know this: eternal life is conditioned upon believing in Jesus Christ, per these 9 verses:

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

God's gift to us is being In Christ, conditional upon believing.


12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Here we see the condition of believe, as required for salvation.

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Next we see that the condition is no longer met, in which the person falls away, or departs from Christ.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

A person who chooses to depart from Christ, is no longer In Christ, or connected to Christ, and the eternal life He provides.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Does a branch who has life from a vine, still have the life from the vine, if it disconnected from the vine and burned in the fire?




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

God's gift to us is being In Christ, conditional upon believing.

How come I'm always being asked for Scripture, yet there are no Scriptures to support your claims?

Which text describes being "in Christ" as a gift of God? I do know the verses that describe salvation as a gift (Eph 2:8) and eternal life as a gift (Rom 6:23).

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Here we see the condition of believe, as required for salvation.

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Next we see that the condition is no longer met, in which the person falls away, or departs from Christ.

The problem with this opinion, and without any Scripture to support the notion that ceasing to believe removes one from being in Christ, is that the present tense of 'believe' means refers only to the moment when one does believe. And the promises that go with that act of believing at that moment are guaranteed.

For example, in John 3:16 Jesus said that the believing ones will not perish. So, from that moment of "present believing", they will not perish. He said the same thing in John 5:24 about those who believe HAVE eternal life. At that moment they have it. And He noted 2 other things in addition to having eternal life:
1. WILL NOT come into condemnation
2. HAVE PASSED from death (spiritual) to life (eternal).

These are guarantees from the moment of believing in Christ.

And just FYI, there are no verses that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. Those who make that claim fail to understand the present tense, which NEVER means that.

A person who chooses to depart from Christ, is no longer In Christ, or connected to Christ, and the eternal life He provides.

Again, this is just an opinion, and incorrect to boot. Eph 1:13-14 teach that from "having believed" one IS marked IN HIM with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, which is a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption, as God's own possession.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

This isn't about removal of union with Christ. Or Eph 1:13-14 cannot be true.

Does a branch who has life from a vine, still have the life from the vine, if it disconnected from the vine and burned in the fire?
JLB

Doctrines aren't built from metaphors, but from very plain language.

The metaphor referred to here is about fruit production, or lack thereof, not how to lose salvation.

Salvation cannot be lost because Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish.

That is plain language. That is eternal security.

No one has shown that Jesus meant anything else in John 10:28.

 

[FreeGrace]

Not that I disagree with your basic conclusions (those who do not believe are not 'in Christ'), but just for my benefit, would you have a verse that is not part of a parable or metaphor where I didn't have to make assumptions about seeds or sticks?

 

[FreeGrace]

At what point in the life of a person does eternal life go from being conditional on believing, to "unconditional", having no condition anymore? [Please refer to scripture]

Here is my answer.

It doesn't; Eternal life never becomes unconditional, as it always is conditional upon believing.

If you disagree, then please give us a scripture, that teaches us there is no condition from God for receiving eternal life in Christ Jesus.

I've given it many many times. But some simply will not see it.

To RECEIVE eternal life is conditioned upon believing. Now, here's the thing that some aren't willing to accept. ONCE received, Jesus SAYS that they will never perish.

So, how can continuing to believe be a condition for never perishing? That's the real question. And the answer is clear: it cannot.

Unless one can spot a condition that recipients of eternal life MUST FULFILL in order to never perish, there are no conditions.

Please show the thread the conditions for never perishing in John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

As a result of Jesus giving, recipients will never perish.

But please show any condition to recipients to fulfill before they will never perish.

 

[JLB]

Which text describes being "in Christ" as a gift of God? I do know the verses that describe salvation as a gift (Eph 2:8) and eternal life as a gift (Rom 6:23).

Eternal life is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God's gift to us is being In Christ, conditional upon believing.


12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Here we see the condition of believe, as required for salvation.

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Next we see that the condition is no longer met, in which the person falls away, or departs from Christ.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

A person who chooses to depart from Christ, is no longer In Christ, or connected to Christ, and the eternal life He provides.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Does a branch who has life from a vine, still have the life from the vine, if it disconnected from the vine and burned in the fire?

 

[JLB]

I've given it many many times. But some simply will not see it.

To RECEIVE eternal life is conditioned upon believing. Now, here's the thing that some aren't willing to accept. ONCE received, Jesus SAYS that they will never perish.

So, how can continuing to believe be a condition for never perishing? That's the real question. And the answer is clear: it cannot.

Unless one can spot a condition that recipients of eternal life MUST FULFILL in order to never perish, there are no conditions.

Please show the thread the conditions for never perishing in John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

As a result of Jesus giving, recipients will never perish.

But please show any condition to recipients to fulfill before they will never perish.

At what point in the life of a person does eternal life go from being conditional on believing, to "unconditional", having no condition anymore? [Please refer to scripture]

If you disagree, then please post the scripture, that teaches us there is no longer the condition of believing for eternal life.


Here is my answer.

It doesn't; Eternal life never becomes unconditional, as it always is conditional upon believing.

If you disagree, then please give us a scripture, that teaches us there is no condition from God for receiving eternal life in Christ Jesus.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Eternal life is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is scriptural.

God's gift to us is being In Christ, conditional upon believing.

This is not scriptural. Where does the Bible speak of union with Christ being a gift from God? There are no verses.

The only part that is correct is that being in union with Christ IS conditioned upon believing. But please notice the AORIST TENSE that Paul used in Eph 1:13 for who is marked IN HIM with a seal; "having believed".

No one can legitimately claim that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be IN HIM. The believer is said to be sealed WHEN they believed. Done deal.

A person who chooses to depart from Christ, is no longer In Christ, or connected to Christ, and the eternal life He provides.

Regardless of how often this opinion is repeated, it isn't true that anyone who has been sealed and in union with Christ can be unsealed or removed from being in union with Christ.

One needs more than just their own opinion to support their opinion. They need Scripture, which hasn't been given. And John 15 isn't about being taken out of union with Christ. It's about fruit production of saved people.

Does a branch who has life from a vine, still have the life from the vine, if it disconnected from the vine and burned in the fire?

The question is irrelevant to the FACT that from having believed (in a point in time) one is marked IN HIM with a seal. This seal is the Holy Spirit, and is a deposit for our inheritance for the day of redemption.

Please explain what "our inheritance" refers to, and explain what the "day of redemption" refers to.

 

[JLB]

This is not scriptural. Where does the Bible speak of union with Christ being a gift from God? There are no verses.

The verse you refer to often.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

• the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Regardless of how often this opinion is repeated, it isn't true that anyone who has been sealed and in union with Christ can be unsealed or removed from being in union with Christ.

One needs more than just their own opinion to support their opinion. They need Scripture, which hasn't been given. And John 15 isn't about being taken out of union with Christ. It's about fruit production of saved people.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Eternal life is being in Christ Jesus, and is God's gift to those who believe.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


As long as a person is in Christ, they have eternal life.

If a person who is in Christ, then departs from Christ, that person no longer in Christ, in which they no longer has eternal life.

If a branch becomes severed from the vine and withers, and is thrown into the fire and burned, it no longer has the life it once had when connected to the vine, and is burned.

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4 NASB



JLB

 

[Mike]

No one has shown that Jesus meant anything else in John 10:28.

This is disingenuous, because there have been countless responses stating that verse 28 cannot be separated from verse 27. You could and should say no one has proven anything else to you, but you cannot make the statement that I quoted above.

In general, I see this theme coming too much from both sides of the issue. There is only one Truth, and we have to accept that we're all making an honest effort to interpret the text we've been Given. Because there are not precise words stating exactly what we require to convince us to change our position, does not mean scripture does not collectively make the statement we are demanding to see. Including John 10:27 with John 10:28 is just one example.