Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Jethro Bodine]

I noticed no conditions for never perishing.

You've made that abundantly clear. We can't make you see what you can't see. You're on your own, buddy. You're the one who has to try to explain your way out of the heap of trouble waiting for you for causing believers in Christ to stumble by counseling them that they can can stop believing in Christ and turn back to their old lives and they still have eternal life.

4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." (Jude 1:4 NASB)

 

[Nathan]

So, to "reap" in eternity, also called "eternal life", is to receive reward for work or effort during this life.

I don't mind conversing with you. But there comes a point when it just does not make any sense. The passage in Galatians clearly states that we will reap eternal life, not reap rewards of things done while we have eternal life.

Galatians 6:8 - For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

If you wish to continue the conversation, lets do. But there is no way you can say that this doesn't mean that we will reap eternal life, when it clearly states it does. I guess you can say that's not what it says, but that's what I am reading. Feel free to post different versions of the passage if you like. Maybe that will help you see the thought of Paul?

 

[FreeGrace]

Forget about Greek. Who needs Greek?

Only those who really want to understand what was written originally.

Let's try Italian:

Let's not.

Romans 6:22
Now, instead, having been freed from sin
(we are this moment freed from sin)

Made instead slaves of God
(we are at this moment slaves of God)

There is nothing in the Greek to suggest this is just "momentary". If there is evidence otherwise, please share.

Gather up your fruit for justification
Right now gather up your fruit for justification

And the end will be eternal life.
And at THE END (of our life) we will have eternal life.

The "end" here isn't "end of life", but in context to th rest of v.22, but the "end" or completion of our faith. Meaning, the moment one actually understands the gospel and believes it, that is the completion of faith. That's when one receives or HAS eternal life. Jesus taught this plainly in John 5:24. He said "HAS eternal life" and said it in the present tense.

We read the same principle in 1 Peter 1:9 - Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. KJV
NASB - "outcome" NIV - "goal"

It does not mean "end of your life" in either verse. The Greek word is the same in both verses; 'telos'.

Both the outcome or goal of faith is salvation. That's WHEN one is saved; WHEN they believe.

Romans 6:23
The recompense for sin is death
If you sin, your payment will be death

Actually, we are born spritually dead, separated from God, and in need of eternal life. Rom 5:12-15.

We don't die spiritually every time we sin. Spiritual death is our condition at birth. Even those who believe we are born without sin, have to admit that at the first sin, they die spiritually.

So it's an abuse of Rom 6:23 to think that we die spiritually every time we sin.

The gift of God's Grace, is eternal life In Christ Jesus, our Lord
God is so good, He gifts to us eternal life IN CHRIST.

Yes, the gift is given only to believers, those who have been sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13,14

God's gift is eternal life when we are IN CHIRST.

If we remain in Christ, we WILL HAVE, in the future, eternal life,

Jesus taught in John 5:24 that those who believe HAVE eternal life.

If we are NOT in Christ, we will NOT have eteral life.

Where does the Bible teach that the specific sealing with the Holy Spirit can by any means be broken?

Instead, the Bible teaches that those who are sealed IN HIM are guaranteed for the day of redemption.
Eph 1:13,14 -
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

This isn't teaching about continuing to believe in order to be saved, but about "God's possession", which is EVERYONE who has been sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

These 2 verses show that our salvation isn't about our lifestyle but about God's promises to His possessions.

Not NOW, not at our death and not after our death.

Jesus said NOW, when we believe, in John 5:24.

 

[FreeGrace]

Forget Greek.

We're having enough problems trying to understand English.
Just stick to the word

BELIEVE

What tense is that?
Past
present
futuire
one of the many others?

How can one "forget Greek" and even answer your question?

 

[JLB]

Yes, I agree.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:36 - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

Quite plainly.

So you agree the condition "believe", must be met for there to be eternal life.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, no longer meet the condition which you say is required for eternal life.

Believe = Saved

Believe for a while = Saved for a while.



I think you've got it.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

You have to be serving whom you will serve at the time of death.
Or it doesn't count.

So, salvation by service, huh? Is there a verse that supports this idea? If so, then the Bible is contradicted. Seriously contradicted.

The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8). Nothing about service, or works. In fact, Eph 2:9 says "not of works".

 

[FreeGrace]

You misquote the scriptures, and quote only the part that seems to validate your 'theory".

Please support your claim about my "misquoting the Scriptures" by citing a post #.

Here is what Romans 6:23 says:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

How 'bout that! I said that "the gift of God is eternal life" and Rom 6:23 says EXACTLY that!! Will wonders never cease?

There is no eternal life except "in" Christ Jesus our Lord.

I never said otherwise. Of course the gift is given ONLY to believers (1 Tim 1:16). When they believe (John 5:24).

The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Absolutely!

Those who are in Him, then later, removed from Him, no longer have the eternal life they once had, when the were "in" Christ Jesus.

Here is where we part. Those who believe are sealed with the Holy Spirit, FOR the day of redemption, as God's own possession. Eph 1:13,14 teach eternal security.

Those who are in Him, must remain in Him, or be gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned.
JLB

We can't do otherwise because we've been sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13) and Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would be with us forever.

I've found no verses that address the sealing with the Holy Spirit being broken for any reason.

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course not. Why would anyone ask me that?

Here's the entire post.

↑Nathan says:
Let's look at this a different way.

Can you have eternal life apart from Christ?

FreeGrace says:
Of course not. Why would anyone ask me that?

FreeGrace,
You've solved the whole riddle !!

You said we cannot have eternal life apart from Christ.
So if we are IN CHRIST, we have eternal life.

If we are NOT IN CHRIST we will not have eternal life.
No matter at what point in our lives we are without Christ.

We only have eternal life IF WE REMAIN IN CHRIST till our day of death.

1.
John 5:39-40
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."


2.
1 John 5:11-12
And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.


3.
John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"


4.
Romans 5:21
so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


5.
Hebrews 5:9
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,


1. If we are to have eternal life, we are to come to Jesus. Only HE has eternal life. Outside of HIM there is no eternal life.

2. He who DOES NOT HAVE THE SON, does not have THE life.
Does a fallen away believer have the Son?
Can the sin of blasphemy reside in the same space with Jesus?
If the answer is NO, then that fallen away believer has lost eternal life.

3. Everyone who BELIEVES (present tense, right now) in me will never die.

4. We have righteousness through Jesus Christ.
Does a fallen away believer have his own righteousness? No. He loses it when he falls away.

5. We must OBEY Him to have eternal life.
Does one who has fallen away OBEY Jesus? No. He is living for himself and has abandoned God.

We have eternal life as long as we remain IN CHRIST.

Eternal Life = The God life within us.

 

[JLB]

And Rom 3:9, 20, and 23 teach that no one is able to earn eternal life.
3:9 - What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

This verse teaches what the "work" of believe looks like.

I know it's shocking, to a mind indoctrinated with false ideas about what God requires, and what "believe" means to God.

Obeying the Spirit within us, [which is why it's in us, to lead us and teach us God's laws of His Kingdom] is the work of believing the Gospel.

Read what it plainly says: those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness...

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Try reading and meditating and quoting the whole verse sometime, you will be shocked at what the bible actually says.




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Does the Bible teach to 'have faith in the Holy Spirit' for any reason?"

Do you mean for a particular, special, reason
Or
at all?

Let's see. I'd say yes to both.

Forum rules dictate that answers (like 'yes' be supported from Scripture. That was my intent; where does the Bible teach this?

The Holy Spirit is God. He does have His own special works.
Yes. We are to have faith in God, so I believe the Holy Spirit qualifies for that faith.

Please cite verses that teach having faith in the Holy Spirit. That was the intent of my question; not just a yes or no answer.

 

[GodsGrace]

Same question. Before your parents conceived you, was your soul alive, in your opinion?

My opinion?
I don't do My Opinion.

The O.T. tells me God knew me before I was born.
Jeremiah 1:5

I know I had a soul then.

Before conception?
I know of no verse.

But I know this...
AFTER I get a soul, it never dies. It just has to decide whom it will serve.

 

[JLB]

Please support your claim about my "misquoting the Scriptures" by citing a post #.

How 'bout that! I said that "the gift of God is eternal life" and Rom 6:23 says EXACTLY that!! Will wonders never cease?

Romans 6:23 does not say EXACTLY say "the gift of is eternal life"

Here is what Romans 6:23 says:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


There is no eternal life except "in" Christ Jesus our Lord.

The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Those who are in Him, then later, removed from Him, no longer have the eternal life they once had, when the were "in" Christ Jesus.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6


Those who are in Him, must remain in Him, or be gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I noticed no conditions for never perishing."

You've made that abundantly clear.

Because the Bible has made that abundantly clear.

We can't make you see what you can't see.

No one can make me see what's NOT THERE. I can't see it because it's just NOT THERE.

You're on your own, buddy.

Nope. I have Scripture, which I've shared to show that my beliefs are biblical.

You're the one who has to try to explain your way out of the heap of trouble waiting for you for causing believers in Christ to stumble by counseling them that they can can stop believing in Christ and turn back to their old lives and they still have eternal life.

I know that is a huge sore spot for the OSNAS crowd. But the Bible is clear; salvation is permanent. It is NOT based on lifestyle. If it were, then our salvation is by works, not by grace.

This is how the Bible explains it:
Rom 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

I believe this verse refutes the OSNAS view.

 

[GodsGrace]

I asked this:
"Does the Bible teach to 'have faith in the Holy Spirit' for any reason?"

Forum rules dictate that answers (like 'yes' be supported from Scripture. That was my intent; where does the Bible teach this?


Please cite verses that teach having faith in the Holy Spirit. That was the intent of my question; not just a yes or no answer.

FG
I didn't give you a yes or no answer.

You asked if we're to have faith in the Holy Spirit.

My answer is that the Holy Spirit is God and we're to have faith in God, so my answer is yes.

If you need a verse for this, you have deeper misunderstandings than I thought...

Here's one thought:

Put together
John 14:26 with
Mathew 28:19

Is this not speaking of the Holy Spirit as being God?
Do you doubt that the Holy Spirit is God?

 

[Nathan]

Are you sure? I mean let's exam the reasons for your concluding that 6:11 does not speak of eternal life (of the soul at least), not just because I disagree, but because maybe you have better reasons for your conclusion than I do.




Are you sure, do you believe your soul was alive before your body was alive, for example? I mean really, your soul was alive before your parents conceived you? Your conclusion here also seems out of line with the evidence (both Biblical and natural).


Same question. Before your parents conceived you, was your soul alive, in your opinion?

1. Yes, I am sure the "alive" that Paul is speaking about is not eternal life. He would have said "eternal life" if that were the case.
Lets look at Romans 6:11 in context.

Romans 6:1-11
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Christ lives to God, and that is the context of 6:11 - to live - to be alive in the understanding of what God wants and so do it. Why? Because we have 'died' to sin. But notice what the end of this is, that Paul talks about - we 'shall' be and we 'believe'(faith) that we will also live with Him. Those are things of "eternal" nature that Paul is referencing - but he does so in future sense, not present. The present, here and now, is our 'awareness'(alive) to the things of God that we did not have before.

2. I believe you misunderstood my thoughts. No, I do not believe that our soul is alive before our bodies are alive - before conception. I said:

the soul itself is never "dead" as in unable to do anything - its just unable to do everything before faith comes.

After, birth into this world, the soul becomes alive - it is never 'dead' as in unable to do anything. However, it is not 'alive' to the things of God - to serve God. We see that it is alive, because without a soul, the body is not able to do anything. The soul of a man is the control center of the body. If a soul was completely dead, as in non functioning, then the body would not make choices, talk, interact with others, etc.

 

[FreeGrace]

I don't mind conversing with you. But there comes a point when it just does not make any sense. The passage in Galatians clearly states that we will reap eternal life, not reap rewards of things done while we have eternal life.

I explained clearly what "reap" indicates. If there is disagreement, please explain why.

Galatians 6:8 - For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

If you wish to continue the conversation, lets do. But there is no way you can say that this doesn't mean that we will reap eternal life, when it clearly states it does.

I never said it doesn't say "reap eternal life". I explained what it means. If we receive eternal life from what we "reap", how is that NOT salvation by works, which is specifically refuted by Scripture?

I guess you can say that's not what it says, but that's what I am reading. Feel free to post different versions of the passage if you like. Maybe that will help you see the thought of Paul?

I've already explained the key word, which is "reap". There is nothing more to add. Please address that point, if there is disagrement.

 

[FreeGrace]

So you agree the condition "believe", must be met for there to be eternal life.

Of course.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, no longer meet the condition which you say is required for eternal life.

Says you. But where does the Bible say that? Nowhere. Rather, Jesus promisess that those who RECEIVE eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Notice the SINGLE condition for NEVER PERISHING is to RECEIVE eternal life. Nothing about lifestyle at all.

Believe = Saved

Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

Assumption. Forum rules stipulate that verses must be given to support one's claims. Where does the Bible talk about being "saved for a while"? Nowhere that I've found. Which is why I keep asking for verses that teach one can be "saved for a while".

 

[Nathan]

Would you please provide me with your definition of "dead"? I don't mean your conclusion of what it means from a salvific sense or it's implications upon any particular doctrines. I mean just a simple, non-biased definition of what dead means.

I have proposed the following. "dead = not alive" If you have a better definition, then please state it.

This is hard chessman. Because I would agree that dead = not alive, but I also would say that dead is used metaphorically in the Bible, to indicate an inability to do something. So while I might be alive - living and breathing(obviously not dead), I can also be dead to something - unable to do it.

So we have to define "dead" when we come to a passage in its context.

 

[FreeGrace]

.

 

[GodsGrace]

How can one "forget Greek" and even answer your question?

My dear FreeGrace

One does NOT have to know Greek to read the bible.
Isn't it wonderful that it was translated to us from Hebrew and Greek?
I think so.
I thank God every day that I have different bibles here in English and in Italian, which is such a poetic and beautiful language. I thank Him that I can understand those words that He wishes me to know.

Now. If theologians want to discuss a particular word or phrase, they can do this and have much fun.
No One Here has so many initials after their name that they could say they're expert at this.
Well, maybe one or two does.

And what question did I ask that would require the knowledge of Greek??
This is preposterous.