Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[chessman]

Whoever does not abide in the doctrine, teaching, word of Christ does not have God.

Bingo!

And what was John teaching EXACTLY in his letter to her children:

2 John 1:1-3 The elder, to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth—and not I alone, but also all those who know the truth— because of the truth that resides in us and will be with us _____. Grace, mercy, peace will be with us from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Son of the Father in truth and love.​

A. Forever
B. Not Forever

 

[chessman]

The 'whoever' is the hand, or foot, or eye that causes the stumbling ...

and they are still a part of the world, an unconverted part, that lack humility. This passage says nothing (not one thing) about little ones going to Hell. The unconverted (unhumble) stumbling blocks of the world go to Hell eventually. They have no business pretending to be humble/converted when in fact they are not. Cut them off, Jesus says. If you don't, He will eventually. If you don't cut them off, they just cause you to stumble. Which is NOT the same thing as going to Hell.

But if they get rid of the 'whoever' that causes the stumbling they will go minus those metaphorical body parts into life.

"If"? One way or the other (either you do it or He does), no person enters His kingdom without becoming humble like a child.

Matthew 18:3 (NASB) and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. ​

Want to be "greatest" in His kingdom??? Just do it (humble yourself).

Matthew 18:4 (NASB) Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.​

But OSAS insists that believers can never ever under any conditions whatsoever go to hell. Jesus made it very clear that they can.

Not in this passage, He doesn't. Only if you confuse the Stumbling Blocks of the world for the converted Little Ones, does one come to that interpretation. One has to wonder the motivation that would lead someone to conflate a stumbling block for a little one, in the first place.

Matt 18:6 NASB but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.​

I'm of the opinion that OSAS (Hyper-grace/ Free Grace OSAS particularly) is the instrument responsible for the undoing of the church and the great falling away in these last days prior to the return of Christ.

I'm of the opinion that there are people in churches today (and in the 1st Century and every Century inbetween) that are NOT converted (humble) little ones but rather are Stumbling Blocks of the world (unconverted, unhumble). These people teach doctrine NOT found in the Bible. And they should be cut-off as all they do is cause humble little ones to stumble.

There are five verses in this passage that 'speak' either directly of metaphorically of going to Hell. Three speak of the unconverted (stumbling block) going to Hell and two speak of how much better it will be for the little ones to enter life having cut-off everything within themselves that's unhumble:

1. Matthew 18:3 (NASB) and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. ​

[Clearly you must be converted to a little one to enter the kingdom of Heaven. Anyone (even those attending church with you) that teach doctrines against verse 3 should be removed from the church (thrown from you).]

2. Matt 18:6 (NASB) but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.​

[metaphorically this speaks of the stumbling blocks suffering a worse fate than drowning]

3. Matt 18:7 (NASB) “Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!​

[metaphorically this speaks of the stumbling blocks of the world, not a little one, going to Hell]

4. Matt 18:8 (NASB) “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.​

[metaphorically this speaks of it being better for you (a little one) to cut off unhumble/unconverted stumbling blocks and throw them "from you". See why in Matt 18:4]

5. Matt 18:9 (NASB) “If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.​

[metaphorically this speaks of it being better for you (a little one) to cut off unhumble/unconverted stumbling blocks and throw them "from you". See why it's better in Matt 18:4]

And last but not least in this passage (before Jesus moves on to teach that He goes after even the 1 out of His 100 sheep of His "until He find the "one", is:

Matt 18:10-11 NASB “See that you do not _____ one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven. [For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.] Parenthetical Matthew's​

A. Despise
B. view down,
C. view with a negative (hostile) outlook
D. thinking little of
E. esteem lightly
F. treat with contempt or disregard
G. pay no regard to (because something seems of no account)
H. All of the above

Viewing even just one of His little ones with a hostile outlook goes against Jesus' teaching!

 

[WIP]

Okay, enough of the personal accusations and implications. Claiming each other is being dishonest or accusing each other of ignoring the "plain words of Scripture" or implying that others do not believe in Jesus, God, or the Bible and so forth is not beneficial to anyone. Please review ToS 2.4.

 

[JLB]

Bingo!

And what was John teaching EXACTLY in his letter to her children:

2 John 1:1-3 The elder, to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth—and not I alone, but also all those who know the truth— because of the truth that resides in us and will be with us _____. Grace, mercy, peace will be with us from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Son of the Father in truth and love.​

A. Forever
B. Not Forever

The end of the scripture says forever.

Those who know the truth.

Stop knowing the truth and transgress and no longer abide in the doctrine of Christ, and you will no longer have God.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds. 2 John 1:9-11

 

[chessman]

Stop knowing the truth ...

'Stop knowing the truth..???
John's letter literally says that all those who know the truth (not some but all), that truth resides in us (that know the truth) AND will be with us forever. He even tells us why that is.

Yet your reply is some 'stop knowing the truth'. Interesting.

2 John 1:1-2 The elder, to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth—and not I alone, but also all those who know the truth— because of the truth that resides in us and will be with us forever. ​

 

[JLB]

'Stop knowing the truth..???
John's letter literally says that all those who know the truth (not some but all), that truth resides in us (that know the truth) AND will be with us forever. He even tells us why that is.

Yet your reply is some 'stop knowing the truth'. Interesting.

2 John 1:1-2 The elder, to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth—and not I alone, but also all those who know the truth— because of the truth that resides in us and will be with us forever. ​

Let me ask you a question.

Can you make this claim about everyone at your church: To the people of my Church, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all those who have known the truth, because of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:

John could say this about this woman and her children, and about Himself.

As he goes on to say about people in general, and those he and she work with:

8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds. 2 John 1:8-11

By saying abide or remain, John is referring to people who have received the doctrine of Christ, and are admonished to continue in it.


Read what these words say:

• If anyone does not abide, remain, continue in the doctrine of Christ, then he does not have God.

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:16



JLB

 

[chessman]

Can you make this claim about everyone at your church

No.
But I can make that claim for the bride of Christ (His Church, not my church). The truth is, His Church knows the truth and that Truth will abide in us forever. Not only that but the truth is, His grace, mercy and peace will be with ALL of us (His bride, his church, His chosen lady and her children) in love.

2 John 1:1-3 The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth, for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. ​

 

[JLB]

Not only that but the truth is, His grace, mercy and peace will be with ALL of us (His bride, his church, His chosen lady and her children) in love.

2 John 1:1-3 was written to a specific woman and her children.

You have tried to "spin" it as "His" chosen bride.

To the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all those who have known the truth, 2 because of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:
3 Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
2 John 1:1-3

This is a believer that John knows and she has a sister.

The children of your elect sister greet you. Amen. 2 John 1:13


9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds. 2 John 1:9-11


Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:16



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No.
But I can make that claim for the bride of Christ (His Church, not my church). The truth is, His Church knows the truth and that Truth will abide in us forever. Not only that but the truth is, His grace, mercy and peace will be with ALL of us (His bride, his church, His chosen lady and her children) in love.

2 John 1:1-3 The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth, for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. ​

It's like you didn't even read his post.

The word of God abiding (continuing) in a person is the choice of the person:

"23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:23-24 NASB)

 

[chessman]

2 John 1:1-3 was written to a specific woman and her children

If it was written to a specific women and her children, then what's her name and her children's names? Who writes a letter to someone and doesn't use the specific person's name??? Paul wrote letters to Titus and Timothy and used their names. We know this because he signed it and said who he was addressing it to (Titus AND those chosen of God);

Titus 1:1, 4 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, ... To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior. ​

John (the elder) wrote a letter to the elect Lady (Kyria) which is a word used in Greek of a subdivision of a city ('sister communities') AND those chosen of God.

2John 1:1-3 LEB The elder, to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth—and not I alone, but also all those who know the truth— because of the truth that resides in us and will be with us forever. Grace, mercy, peace will be with us from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Son of the Father in truth and love.​

Furthermore, the Text doesn't say 'woman', it says "kyria". Which is a Greek word (feminine gender just as the word for "church" is feminine as is the word for "Bride". Yes, it means literally "Lady" but it is often (if not more often) used in Greek literature for subdivisions within a broader city. 2 John is the only place it's used in the whole Bible so it's necessary to see how secular Greek writers used the word in order to not read into the Text one's personal desire for how it's being used. It's clearly a word used to subdivide the whole church into sister churches/communities (just as we still do today). My church is a union of three sister churches, for example. Thus, it's in the Bible for all of us.

And furthermore, it doesn't even matter toward my point. Because John says about "all those who know the truth", that "the truth that resides in us and will be with us forever" (us-plural, for all those who know the truth) no matter who the letter was addressed to.

2 John 1:5 Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.​

On your view, John's commanding this unnamed women to love him (John) versus the commandment Jesus gave to His church; that "we" (His church) to love one another.

This is a believer that John knows and she has a sister.

This is a letter written by John the elder of a sister church to another sister church, that happens to say that all those who know the truth, that that Truth resides in us and will be with us forever.

2 John 1:13 The children of your elect sister greet you.​

Additionally, did this woman John supposedly specifically wrote to "elect" her own sister??? Obviously not.

If John would have meant the unnamed women's nieces/nephews greet you, he would have said so. Rather, he used the same word Paul uses for church "sisters" here:

1 Corinthians 7:15 (LEB) But if the unbeliever leaves, let him leave. The brother or the sister is not bound in such cases. But God has called us in peace.​

(note God's call and God's peace as with 2 John 1:-3 and Titus 1:1-4 as well).

You have tried to "spin" it as "His" chosen bride.

If the OSAS side of the fence had accused you personally of 'spin', red letters would abound.

 

[chessman]

It's like you didn't even read his post.

Oh, I read it. That's how I know JLB said we could "stop knowing the truth" even as the elder said "the truth resides in us forever".

The word of God abiding (continuing) in a person is the choice of the person:

"23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:23-24 NASB)

This passage doesn't say anything about "the choice of the person". Not that I disagree that all persons have a choice.

I also agree:
1. whoever denies the Son does not have the Father.
2. The one who confess the Son DOES have the Son and the Father. Thus, the Father cannot deny His Son (who is abiding in the confessor who knows the truth forever). Specifically because the Father cannot deny the Son.
3. People that know the truth need to let truths (such as us residing in the truth forever) abide in us. I've never understood why people don't want that particular truth that they heard from the beginning to abide in them. But some certainly don't and go to great links to 'justify' why it's not true that it will reside in us forever.
4. We (who know the truth) will abide in the Son and in the Father. I'm looking forward to dwelling with them both, with the utmost of confidence. It's a shame some have no confidence in dwelling with the Son and the Father.

 

[JLB]

We (who know the truth) will abide in the Son and in the Father. I'm looking forward to dwelling with them both, with the utmost of confidence. It's a shame some have no confidence in dwelling with the Son and the Father.

Those who have faith have confidence in Christ.

This confidence in also rendered as substance;
Faith is the substance of things hoped for....

Those who once believed, yet no longer believe, no longer have this substance of the thing they are hoping for.

The thing we who abide in Christ are hoping for is eternal life, which will be given to who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; (Romans 2:7)


JLB

 

[JLB]

This is a letter written by John the elder of a sister church to another sister church,

I see, so if the letter is to the Church, then who did John mail or send the letter to?

If the letter is to the Church, the Bride of Christ, then who is the "sister" Church?

I thought there was only one Church, bride of Christ.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Those who once believed, yet no longer believe, no longer have this substance of the thing they are hoping for.

Scripture that says this please.

I see, so if the letter is to the Church, then who did John mail or send the letter to?

First, there was no "mail" service available to John in the 1st Century from Ephesus to other churches in the region.
He wrote this Epistle (definition: any one of the letters to the early Christians) to exactly the parties he greeted within the greeting:

1. the "elect lady" (singular)
2. her children (plural)
3. all those who know the truth (plural)

2 John (LEB)
Greeting

1 The elder, to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth—and not I alone, but also all those who know the truth—​

If the letter is to the Church, the Bride of Christ, then who is the "sister" Church?

Scholars say with almost universal agreement that John's residence church in Ephesus is the "sister church" he mentions in this Epistle. He resided there until Trajan.

The Church (Capital C) is the universal Church and singular in the Text for that reason. That's why he addressed it to not just the "elect lady" (singular) but also to her children (those in the local sister church near John's residence church in Ephesus at the time) AND "all those (plural) who know the truth" (collectively, Capital C church). That's my point. It doesn't even matter whether "the elect lady" is an unnamed/specific mother with physical children and nieces/nephews from her unnamed physical sister. The point John made (which conflicts with your unsupported statement above) was that "all those who know the truth", that Truth resides in us and will be with us forever".

If your idea (that the letter was a personal letter to an unnamed women) were true (as I've already pointed out), the "you" in verse six would be 1st person singular. It's not. It's 2nd person plural. Because he's addressing "all those who know the truth". Not to mention that what in the world are you doing applying it to other believers (like you and me), if he was writing it to a specific woman and her children only???

2John 1:6 LEB And this is love: that we walk according to his commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.​

I thought there was only one Church, bride of Christ.

There is. Christ has a bride, not a bunch of brides.

2 John 1:7-8 LEB For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in the flesh. This person is the deceiver and the antichrist! Watch yourselves that you do not lose what we have worked for, but receive a full reward.

Rev 2:12-Rev 2:16 LEB “And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: “This is what the one who has the sharp double-edged sword says: ‘I know where you live, where the throne of Satan is. And you hold fast to my name and did not deny your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan lives. But I have a few things against you: ... you also have those who hold fast to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. (who taught Christ did not come in the flesh).
​

Most likely (but nobody knows for sure), 2 John was addressed to the members (her children) of the local church at Pergamum (the elect lady and sister church to the one at Ephesus) within the universal Church which is (last time) "all those who know the truth".

As Irenaeus says, "These are they against whom the Lord has cautioned us beforehand; and His disciple, in his Epistle already mentioned, commands us to avoid them, when he says: "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."​

It's obviously an epistle meant for "us". (except of course the part that says, "the truth that resides in us and will be with us forever" No, no, that can't be for "us". yea, right!)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

3. People that know the truth need to let truths (such as us residing in the truth forever) abide in us.

Then you agree that it is incumbent upon the believer to let the truth continue to abide in them. That being true, John says the condition for abiding in the Son and the Father is that you do indeed do that.....let the truth continue to abide in you. Continuing in Christ, who is eternal life, is conditional on continuing in him. And John makes it clear that we are responsible to do the continuing in him (which you agree with).

 

[chessman]

let the truth continue to abide in you.

Yep. Let it. That way, when someone comes along and tries to claim that the Truth does not abide in you forever, you know better. Good point.

Continuing in Christ, who is eternal life, is conditional on continuing in him.

What Text are you referring exactly to?

It's not these:

2 John 1:9 Everyone who goes too far and does not remain in the teaching of Christ does not have God. The one who remains in the teaching—this person has both the Father and the Son.
​

Or

1 John 2:23-24a (NASB) Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. ​

These are not conditional statements. They are unconditional statements. And 100% true.

Ah, here's a conditional statement (IF x THEN y). One that I 100% agree with too:

1 John 2:24b (NASB) If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. ​

IF x abides (aorist) in you THEN you will abide (future) in the Son and in the Father.

Better find out what x is, huh??? And it turns out to be a Who, not a what. x is something (or somebody);
1. They Heard
2. They Saw
3. They Touched
4. Was proclaimed
5. Was with the Father
6. Was manifest
7. His Son Jesus Christ (the Word of Life)

1 John 1:1-3 (NASB) What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.​

IF His Son Jesus Christ abides (aorist) in you THEN you WILL also (not might) abide (in the future) with the Son and the Father. Poof! OSAS. Clear as day.

​

 

[WIP]

The elder, to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth—and not I alone, but also all those who know the truth—

I wonder if the "elect lady" wasn't a reference to the saints, the elect, the bride of Christ?

 

[WIP]

Christ has a bride, not a bunch of brides.

Is the bride just a single individual or a union of many?

For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body....For in fact the body is not one member but many. 1 Corinthians 12:12, 14 NKJV

 

[MarkT]

I wonder if the "elect lady" wasn't a reference to the saints, the elect, the bride of Christ?

The word 'elect' suggests an 'election' to an office. So the elect are chosen or elected to an office ie. the office of prophet, apostle, teacher. So in this case the lady is in charge of her children, they being her charge. So she would be like a Mother Superior teaching women and her children would be women/nuns.

 

[chessman]

I wonder if the "elect lady" wasn't a reference to the saints, the elect, the bride of Christ?

Why would John write a letter to dead saints?

Is the bride just a single individual or a union of many?

Per John's Revelation of Christ, Christ's bride is a holy city 100% full of His people (Jews and gentiles):

Revelation 21:9-10 (NASB) Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, ...​