Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[FreeGrace]

So do you believe we are a new creation, created in the same condition that Adam and Eve were to begin with?

Yes, believers are born again, and are a new creation. But not "in the same condition" of Adam and Eve to begin with. They didn't have the indwelling Holy Spirit, nor were they created with eternal life.

 

[chessman]

Desire -----> Sin --------> Death.......

2 Timothy 3:13 (NASB) But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. ​

14-15 (NASB) You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.​

Ephesians 2:3-5 (NASB) Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us ... ______
​

A. Desire -----> Sin --------> Death.......
B. alive together with Christ

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"They didn't have eternal life when they were created. There was the "tree of life" in the Garden that they could eat from. But after their rebellion, God removed them from the Garden so as not to be able to eat from that tree and LIVE FOREVER.
Gen 3:22
And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

That's why we cannot compare Adam and Eve to the rest of humanity. It's apples and oranges."

Didn't Jesus say that whoever eats His flesh and drinks His blood would have eternal life?

Yes, He did. What does that have to do with Adam and Eve?

Do we have to do this in order to have eternal life?

Jesus was obviously speaking metaphorically, not literally. We have to believe in Him for eternal life.

Do you believe they were in the same type of relationship, before they sinned, as we are after our new birth?

No. Not even close. They did die spiritually and needed to be reborn. After our new birth, we cannot die spiritually.

 

[FreeGrace]

You said;

So you were giving a definition right? A definition of a word is what the word means right? I did not see the phrase "Which is what 'eternal life' is and means" quoted in John 10:28

If you want, I'll post what the words actually mean - unless you want to.

Be my guest.

 

[Nathan]

2 Timothy 3:13 (NASB) But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. ​

14-15 (NASB) You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.​

Ephesians 2:3-5 (NASB) Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us ... ______
​

A. Desire -----> Sin --------> Death.......
B. alive together with Christ

A. Desire -----> Sin --------> Death.......
B. alive together with Christ
C. Desire -----> Sin --------> Death.......

*edit - I should add;

James 1:14 (ESV) 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

James 1:15 (ESV) 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

James 1:16 (ESV) 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.

Do you believe James was writing to believers or unbelievers?

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"They didn't have eternal life when they were created. There was the "tree of life" in the Garden that they could eat from. But after their rebellion, God removed them from the Garden so as not to be able to eat from that tree and LIVE FOREVER.
Gen 3:22
And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

That's why we cannot compare Adam and Eve to the rest of humanity. It's apples and oranges."

Yes, He did. What does that have to do with Adam and Eve?


Jesus was obviously speaking metaphorically, not literally. We have to believe in Him for eternal life.


No. Not even close. They did die spiritually and needed to be reborn. After our new birth, we cannot die spiritually.

Do you believe, metaphorically, we must feed on Christ, or just have one meal?

 

[Nathan]

Be my guest.

Great!

1 Timothy 6:12 (ESV)
Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

Eternal - aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Life - zōḗ, dzo-ay'; from G2198; life (literally or figuratively):—life(-time). Compare G5590.

Eternal is something that has no beginning or and end. Perpetual. So how can it only begin in us when we believe?

Do you believe Timothy had eternal life when Paul wrote his letter to Timothy?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What about "eternal life" is not eternal? Having life in Christ is described as eternal.

By definition, it is not possible to lose "eternal" life, else eternal does not mean eternal. This is the nature of the life that God has given believers, it is eternal.

Christ's Eternal life does not cease to be eternal just because you or I forfeit our share in it by not enduring in our faith to the very end.
That's like saying a winning lotto ticket is no longer worth anything if the person who has it loses it.

This is an example of a way of thinking that many in the church do not possess because of the power that OSAS doctrine has exercised over us for so long. Many have indoctrinated minds that keep them from being able to think outside of the OSAS doctrinal box. If something grates against established OSAS doctrine they instantly and automatically reject it and are incapable of thinking through other reasonable and logical views that are opposed to OSAS doctrine. But that's how indoctrinations work.

 

[Gregg T]

Can a believer stop believing so as to no longer have eternal life - Yes.

2Pe 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Can you have eternal life after leaving it - Yes - however, it is impossible to bring those who leave eternal life back to repentance. So in essence, it is possible to have it, but the conditions of returning makes it impossible.

Heb 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The same way it is possible for the entire world to have eternal life, but impossible for them to have it any other way but through Christ. If someone asked you is it possible for them to have eternal life you would answer yes. If they said ok, let me have it, then you would probably tell them the only way to have it is to believe in Christ right?

If they said, "but I do not want to believe in Christ" - would you then tell them they could still have eternal life? Of course not, because while it is possible to have eternal life, it is impossible to have it in any other means but in Christ.


Question: Does Christ "buy" the souls of those who do not believe in Him? Does God place Christ sacrifice for sin onto the account of unbelievers?

2Pet 2:1 does not answer to your claim. It does not state believers did or can lose salvation. It does not insinuate or state the false teachers were believers, and it is the false teachers who bring destruction to themselves. Also, the verse does not state what the destruction or loss is.

How does Heb 6:4-6 answer to your claim that a believer having lost salvation can obtain salvation again?

The remainder of your post is a redirection, as we are not debating if Christ is the only means for salvation, or what Christ purchased, or What God accounts to unbelievers.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

After believing in Christ, does He attach an addendum stating that "should not perish" now means 'should not perish if . . .' or was there a hyperlink to another document stating in fine print and in another language that "eternal life" really means 'potential and contingent life'?

Without the fine print, or foreign language, yes, here is that other document:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

This passage has been repeatedly assailed by Hyper-grace OSAS from all different directions but nothing has been able to make it 'not really' mean what it so plainly says: the condition for being presently saved is that you are presently retaining the gospel word (like seed in soil).

This is why it's so important to not form doctrines by un-rightly dividing verses and passages of scripture out of the context of the whole Bible. The whole counsel of scripture shows us that John did not mean a person can return to unbelief and they still have Christ's eternal life. In fact, John himself refutes that absurd notion:

"23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:23-24 NASB)

 

[chessman]

So how can it only begin in us when we believe?

Easy. It's a gift of God's.

 

[Nathan]

Easy. It's a gift of God's.

Is it perpetual without belief in Christ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The remainder of your post is a redirection, as we are not debating if Christ is the only means for salvation, or what Christ purchased, or What God accounts to unbelievers.

Actually, Gregg, his last question is extremely relevant to the validity of Hyper-grace doctrine.
Does an ex-believer still have Christ's sacrifice applied to him? Hebrews 10:26 NASB answers that question for us. 'No', there is no sacrifice for sin available for rejecting the only sacrifice for sin there is. The only thing left is the fearful expectation of the wrath of God reserved for the enemies of God.

 

[Nathan]

2Pet 2:1 does not answer to your claim. It does not state believers did or can lose salvation. It does not insinuate or state the false teachers were believers, and it is the false teachers who bring destruction to themselves. Also, the verse does not state what the destruction or loss is.

How does Heb 6:4-6 answer to your claim that a believer having lost salvation can obtain salvation again?

The remainder of your post is a redirection, as we are not debating if Christ is the only means for salvation, or what Christ purchased, or What God accounts to unbelievers.

Maybe you missed the question?

Does Christ "purchase" anyone who does not believe in Him? (That's not the exact question I asked, but another way of wording it).

 

[Nathan]

2Pet 2:1 does not answer to your claim. It does not state believers did or can lose salvation. It does not insinuate or state the false teachers were believers, and it is the false teachers who bring destruction to themselves. Also, the verse does not state what the destruction or loss is.

How does Heb 6:4-6 answer to your claim that a believer having lost salvation can obtain salvation again?

The remainder of your post is a redirection, as we are not debating if Christ is the only means for salvation, or what Christ purchased, or What God accounts to unbelievers.

Actually, you'll need to re-read my post. I explicitly state that believers who deny Christ will not(not cannot) return to Him, and therefore have eternal life.

What Christ purchased, is the absolute beginning of understanding salvation, and eternal life. Without that purchase, eternal life is irrelevant to the whole world.

1 Corinthians 7:23 (ESV)
You were bought with a price; do not become bondservants of men.

 

[Gregg T]

Christ's Eternal life does not cease to be eternal just because you or I forfeit our share in it by not enduring in our faith to the very end.
That's like saying a winning lotto ticket is no longer worth anything if the person who has it loses it.

This is an example of a way of thinking that many in the church do not possess because of the power that OSAS doctrine has exercised over us for so long. Many have indoctrinated minds that keep them from being able to think outside of the OSAS doctrinal box. If something grates against established OSAS doctrine they instantly and automatically reject it and are incapable of thinking through other reasonable and logical views that are opposed to OSAS doctrine. But that's how indoctrinations work.

Jethro,
I have come to my understanding of the Scriptures after careful examination, reasoning through matters, exercising my faculties, all while trusting the Spirit of the Lord to lead me - hardly an indoctrination. That is not a proof that my understanding is correct, but that I have not come to my understanding uncritically.

 

[chessman]

You were bought with a price; do not become bondservants of men.

This has zero to do with loosing salvation nor becoming an exbeliever. It's about literal/financial bondservents becoming freed (or not). Or free men (yet financially poor) becoming bondservents or not. Just like it says. Otherwise, Paul's telling them to remain bonded (slaves) unless financially able to purchase their bond back.

1 Corinthians 7:21-22 (NASB) Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that. For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord’s freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ’s slave. ​

1 Corinthians 7:24 (NASB) Brethren, each one is to remain with God in that condition in which he was called. ​

You throw "out of context" accusations around like Madi Gras beads, yet this.
Interesting!

 

[Nathan]

This has zero to do with loosing salvation nor becoming an exbeliever. It's about literal/financial bondservents becoming freed (or not). Or free men (yet financially poor) becoming bondservents or not. Just like it says. Otherwise, Paul's telling them to remain bonded (slaves) unless financially able to purchase their bond back.

1 Corinthians 7:21-22 (NASB) Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that. For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord’s freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ’s slave. ​

1 Corinthians 7:24 (NASB) Brethren, each one is to remain with God in that condition in which he was called. ​

You throw "out of context" accusations around like Madi Gras beads, yet this.
Interesting!

Um, your taking my post out of context.

Did Christ purchase/redeem us?

*I edited my original post to Gregg, that you quoted, for better clairification.

 

[chessman]

Did Christ purchase/redeem us?

Yep. We are bonded to Him.

1 Corinthians 12:13, 27 (NASB) For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. ​

...

Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. ​

Is Christ's body whole?

Um, your taking my post out of context.
...

*I edited my original post to Gregg, that you quoted, for better clairification.

We are not mind (or heart) readers. We only know what you write, not what you meant.

 

[Gregg T]

Maybe you missed the question?

Does Christ "purchase" anyone who does not believe in Him? (That's not the exact question I asked, but another way of wording it).

To complete a purchase transaction, there must be a purchase price paid and the transfer of goods to that party. Christ paid the purchase price for all men. Regarding New Testament believers: the transaction is completed when someone believes into Him, immediately being transferred into His possession.

Actually, you'll need to re-read my post. I explicitly state that believers who deny Christ will not(not cannot) return to Him and therefore have eternal life.

What Christ purchased is the absolute beginning of understanding salvation and eternal life. Without that purchase eternal life is irrelevant to the whole world.

1 Corinthians 7:23 (ESV)
You were bought with a price; do not become bondservants of men.

I reread your post and did misunderstand it. Thank you for pointing that out.

You say above Christ purchased the absolute beginning of understanding . . . I have no idea what that could mean, and can not reference anything remotely similar to it in the Scriptures.