Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Nathan]

chessman

Did Christ purchase us? Did

Yep. We are bonded to Him.

1 Corinthians 12:13, 27 (NASB) For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. ​

...

Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. ​

Is Christ's body whole?


We are not mind (or heart) readers. We only know what you write, not what you meant.

True, we are only readers - I just ask that all my post be read before quoting.

So Christ purchased/redeemed us, does He purchase and redeem unbelievers?

 

[Nathan]

To complete a purchase transaction, there must be a purchase price paid and the transfer of goods to that party. Christ paid the purchase price for all men. Regarding New Testament believers: the transaction is completed when someone believes into Him, immediately being transferred into His possession.


I reread your post and did misunderstand it. Thank you for pointing that out.

You say above Christ purchased the absolute beginning of understanding . . . I have no idea what that could mean, and can not reference anything remotely similar to it in the Scriptures.

Yea, that post was worded to where it can be taken different ways. I meant, the purchase that Christ made, is the absolute beginning of understand what eternal life is. In other words, if we don't understand Christs purchase, then we won't understand eternal life.

So you seem to be saying that only when a person accepts a transaction, then it's complete?

That seems to fall into the line of believing we have a part of the transaction of Christ sacrifice for us.

Did God accept Christs sacrifice or not? So if those spoke about in 2 Peter, who deny the master who bought them, did they deny before or after they were purchased?

 

[chessman]

So Christ purchased/redeemed us, does He purchase and redeem unbelievers?

No.

You didn't answer my question. Did you read it?

 

[Nathan]

No.

You didn't answer my question. Did you read it?

Yes, I apologize, I did read it but did not respond.

Yes, Christs body is a whole.

So if Christ did not redeem unbelievers, then who is Peter talking about when he references those who have denied the Master who bought them?

Isn't a master who someone belongs to?

Does an unbeliever belong to Christ?

 

[chessman]

So if Christ did not redeem unbelievers, then who is Peter talking about when he references those who have denied the Master who bought them?

False teachers and false prophets (evil men, impostors, dogs, swine, etc.) who's judgment is from long ago, just like the Text says.

2 Peter 2:1-3 (NASB) But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
​

Impostors!

2 Timothy 3:13 (NASB) But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

​

So if a member of Christ's body is removed, then is Christ's body still whole?

​

 

[Nathan]

False teachers and false prophets (evil men, impostors, dogs, swine, etc.) who's judgment is from long ago, just like the Text says.

2 Peter 2:1-3 (NASB) But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
​

Impostors!

​

Denying the Master who bought them?

Are they denying Christ or satan?

Or is there another Master you know of?

 

[chessman]

Yes, Christs body is a whole

So if a member of Christ's body is removed, is Christ's body still whole.

Denying the Master who bought them?

Yes. Did you think Peter said that these false prophets, false teachers, dogs, swine had been redeemed? Or did he say Christ bought them (paid the price for them) without redeeming them?

 

[Nathan]

So if a member of Christ's body is removed, is Christ's body still whole.


Yes. Did you think Peter said that these false prophets, false teachers, dogs, swine had been redeemed? Or did he say Christ bought them (paid the price for them) without redeeming them?

Yes, actually, the body(even our physical body) has a way of healing itself.

Christ had 12 disciples, yet one was "lost". They were not 12 disciples for a while, then they became whole again.

Peter said they had been bought, and they denied their Master. So who was the Master they had denied?

 

[Gregg T]

Yea, that post was worded to where it can be taken different ways. I meant, the purchase that Christ made, is the absolute beginning of understand what eternal life is. In other words, if we don't understand Christs purchase, then we won't understand eternal life.

So you seem to be saying that only when a person accepts a transaction, then it's complete?

That seems to fall into the line of believing we have a part of the transaction of Christ sacrifice for us.

Did God accept Christs sacrifice or not? So if those spoke about in 2 Peter, who deny the master who bought them, did they deny before or after they were purchased?

I honestly don't know how to make sense of what you said above, or how to respond to it. My deficiency.

 

[chessman]

Christ had 12 disciples, yet one was "lost".

John 6:70 Jesus replied to them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is the devil?” ​

actually, the body(even our physical body) has a way of healing itself.

His glorified body can become sick and need healing???

Prior to His resurrection, Christ choose each individually, for their own individual purpose/function. Judas had a purpose. But I was asking about now, in His glorified body, He loses an individual body part and it (the part) heals by adding another individual??? And that makes Him whole again??? Are you aware of any Scripture that indicates (figuratively or not) that His (or our) glorified bodies can lose body parts?

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of it individually,​

John 17:1-2 John 16:27-28, 33 Jesus said these things, and lifting up his eyes to heaven he said, “Father, the hour has come! Glorify your Son, in order that your Son may glorify you— just as you have given him authority over all flesh, in order that he would give eternal life to them—everyone whom you have given him. ​

For the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. I have gone out from the Father and have come into the world; again, I am leaving the world and am going to the Father.” I have said these things to you so that in me you may have peace. In the world you have affliction, but have courage! I have conquered the world.” ​

I've been under the impression that Christ HAS conquered the world already. So He's still battling the world, and subject to sickness in His glorified body???

Peter said they had been bought, and they denied their Master.

No he didn't. He said "The Master", not 'their' Master. There's a BIG difference.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you also, who will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, thus bringing on themselves swift destruction. ​

 

[Nathan]

I honestly don't know how to make sense of what you said above, or how to respond to it. My deficiency.

I can simplify it some.

The people spoken of in 2 Peter 2 had a Master who bought them, right?

Who was that Master and what was His purchase?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro,
I have come to my understanding of the Scriptures after careful examination, reasoning through matters, exercising my faculties, all while trusting the Spirit of the Lord to lead me - hardly an indoctrination. That is not a proof that my understanding is correct, but that I have not come to my understanding uncritically.

Did you examine this subject from the viewpoint of non-OSAS and not just from the OSAS viewpoint?
If you did, I'd be curious how you came to the conclusion that a believer can not fall away into unbelief and be lost despite all the warnings to not do that and the consequences for doing that. You could start with this one:

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!
8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB)

Since you are new to the forum I will point out that Christ is talking about people who believe in Him, not fake believers, and the hell that the stumbled little one who believes in Christ will go to if not delivered from the stumbling block is the actual eternal hell, not temporal suffering. And, Jesus himself interprets the metaphor of the hand, foot, and eye, so the passage can't be dismissed on the basis of him speaking in an unknown and undefined metaphor.

I bring this all up because these are the areas that have been assailed by others to make the passage 'not really' mean what it says. I put the 'not really' in quotes because it occurred to me in my own examination of OSAS vs. non-OSAS that the OSAS doctrine was based on so many passages of the Bible 'not really' meaning what they so plainly say. There are so many that I call them the 'not really' arguments of the OSAS doctrine. It seems OSAS always has an answer as to why a passage of scripture 'doesn't really' mean what it is so plainly states. Meanwhile, non-OSAS does not have to do that to defend itself with the Bible. In non-OSAS a person is secure in eternal life as long as he is continuing to believe in Christ. The scriptures easily and plainly bear this truth out and does not require the use of 'not really' arguments to prove it's point. In non-OSAS you simply have to know what the Bible says about this subject. In OSAS you have to be taught the ways that make plain passages of the Bible 'not really' mean what they are so plainly saying.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you believe, metaphorically, we must feed on Christ, or just have one meal?

If this is in reference to getting saved, we are saved by a single occurrence, as the aorist tense indicates. Jesus said so Himself, to the woman at a well in John 4. When he spoke of drinking, He used the aorist tense.

If your question is in reference to living the Christian life according to the Bible, then we do need to "feed" daily. For Jesus said: "“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing." John 15:5

 

[FreeGrace]

Great!

1 Timothy 6:12 (ESV)
Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

Eternal - aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Life - zōḗ, dzo-ay'; from G2198; life (literally or figuratively):—life(-time). Compare G5590.

Eternal is something that has no beginning or and end. Perpetual. So how can it only begin in us when we believe?

God is eternal, right? Of course. It begins in us when the Holy Spirit indwells us. It's still eternal. We are GIVEN eternal life. That's what Jesus said in John 10:28 - "I give them eternal life and they will never perish."

Do you believe Timothy had eternal life when Paul wrote his letter to Timothy?

Sure. He was saved.

Do you believe that one can be saved and yet not possess eternal life? If so, please support your view from Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

Christ's Eternal life does not cease to be eternal just because you or I forfeit our share in it by not enduring in our faith to the very end.
That's like saying a winning lotto ticket is no longer worth anything if the person who has it loses it.

This is a real poor analogy. It suggests that someone else can come along and find this forfeited gift of eternal life and claim it themselves. Which would be nonsense.

This is an example of a way of thinking that many in the church do not possess because of the power that OSAS doctrine has exercised over us for so long.

The problem is that OSNAS fails to realize that their view puts more power on one's lifestyle and choices than on Christ's power of salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

chessman said: ↑
"Easy. It's a gift of God's."

Is it perpetual without belief in Christ?

Eternal is eternal. Simple as that.

Just remember what OSAS means:
once sealed, always sealed.

One is saved as a result in a single occurrence of belief. That's what the aorist tense indicates.

 

[Nathan]

John 6:70 Jesus replied to them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is the devil?” ​

His glorified body can become sick and need healing???

Prior to His resurrection, Christ choose each individually, for their own individual purpose/function. Judas had a purpose. But I was asking about now, in His glorified body, He loses an individual body part and it (the part) heals by adding another individual??? And that makes Him whole again??? Are you aware of any Scripture that indicates (figuratively or not) that His (or our) glorified bodies can lose body parts?

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of it individually,​

John 17:1-2 John 16:27-28, 33 Jesus said these things, and lifting up his eyes to heaven he said, “Father, the hour has come! Glorify your Son, in order that your Son may glorify you— just as you have given him authority over all flesh, in order that he would give eternal life to them—everyone whom you have given him. ​

For the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. I have gone out from the Father and have come into the world; again, I am leaving the world and am going to the Father.” I have said these things to you so that in me you may have peace. In the world you have affliction, but have courage! I have conquered the world.” ​

I've been under the impression that Christ HAS conquered the world already. So He's still battling the world, and subject to sickness in His glorified body???


No he didn't. He said "The Master", not 'their' Master. There's a BIG difference.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you also, who will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, thus bringing on themselves swift destruction. ​

John 6:70 Jesus replied to them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is the devil?” ​

His glorified body can become sick and need healing???

Prior to His resurrection, Christ choose each individually, for their own individual purpose/function. Judas had a purpose. But I was asking about now, in His glorified body, He loses an individual body part and it (the part) heals by adding another individual??? And that makes Him whole again??? Are you aware of any Scripture that indicates (figuratively or not) that His (or our) glorified bodies can lose body parts?

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of it individually,​

John 17:1-2 John 16:27-28, 33 Jesus said these things, and lifting up his eyes to heaven he said, “Father, the hour has come! Glorify your Son, in order that your Son may glorify you— just as you have given him authority over all flesh, in order that he would give eternal life to them—everyone whom you have given him. ​

For the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. I have gone out from the Father and have come into the world; again, I am leaving the world and am going to the Father.” I have said these things to you so that in me you may have peace. In the world you have affliction, but have courage! I have conquered the world.” ​

I've been under the impression that Christ HAS conquered the world already. So He's still battling the world, and subject to sickness in His glorified body???


No he didn't. He said "The Master", not 'their' Master. There's a BIG difference.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you also, who will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, thus bringing on themselves swift destruction. ​

Heb 12:12-17
Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

The writer obviously was not talking about our physical hands and knees. He was talking about the 'lame' parts of the body. He then goes on to give reason why that which is lame should be looked after so it can be healed. Not "put of of joint", which means to 'turn away'. The reason being given in regards to the analogy of Esau - who sold his 'birthright' for a single meal - he did not have it taken away or 'lose' it somewhere. What is our birthright?

Mat 6:24
No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

You cannot have two masters because it is impossible to serve both. Simply put, a person has a singular master. The ones Peter speaks about denied the one Master in order to serve the other. If Christ was not their master to begin with, then they cannot deny Him as a Master. Peter specifically states they denied Him as a Master who had bought them - not just 'potentially' bought them - He had purchased them(past tense).

A Master has servants correct? Does the servant of one master refer to another person as their master? If a master buys a servant, does that servant still belong to the other master? Did Peter say that the Master was going to buy them, or that He did buy them?

Simple fact is the entire chapter of 2 Peter is the context, along with its analogy of Balaam. These people Peter speaks about are said to be like Balaam, following in his way. What do we know of Balaam? He was a prophet of God, who turned from God.

 

[Nathan]

God is eternal, right? Of course. It begins in us when the Holy Spirit indwells us. It's still eternal. We are GIVEN eternal life. That's what Jesus said in John 10:28 - "I give them eternal life and they will never perish."


Sure. He was saved.

Do you believe that one can be saved and yet not possess eternal life? If so, please support your view from Scripture.

Being saved is having eternal life in you. Can't have one without the other.

If Timothy had eternal life already, then why did Paul tell him to take hold of it? Why hold on to something that's impossible to not have once you have it?

1 Timothy 6:12 (ESV)
Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

 

[Nathan]

chessman said: ↑
"Easy. It's a gift of God's."

Eternal is eternal. Simple as that.

Just remember what OSAS means:
once sealed, always sealed.

One is saved as a result in a single occurrence of belief. That's what the aorist tense indicates.

So is eternal life perpetual in a person if he is not in Christ anymore?

 

[chessman]

A Master has servants correct?

correct

Does the servant of one master refer to another person as their master?

Peter didn't say the false prophets served God.

If a master buys a servant, does that servant still belong to the other master?

If the master hasn't "redeemed" them, yes. The price was paid but the redemption is lacking for the false prophets. However, that is not the case for His servants:

1 Peter 1:18-23 because you know that you were redeemed [to restore "something back, into the possession of its rightful owner – i.e. rescuing from the power and possession of an alien possessor"] from your futile way of life inherited from your ancestors not with perishable things like silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb who was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has been revealed in these last times for you who through him are believing in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for sincere brotherly love, love one another fervently from the heart, because you have been born again, not from perishable seed but imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.​

Did Peter say that the Master was going to buy them, or that He did buy them?

He's paid the price for all mankind. But the Christian faith, is not a universalist faith. Redemption is necessary.

1 John 2:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. ​

These people Peter speaks about are said to be like Balaam, following in his way. What do we know of Balaam? He was a prophet of God, who turned from God.

The writer obviously was not talking about our physical hands and knees. He was talking about the 'lame' parts of the body

The writer of Hebrews was obviously not talking about our glorified/resurrected bodies in that Text, nor Christ's glorified body either.

Saved people "now are" the body (glorified body) of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of it individually,

You are not using Texts that speak of the imperishable attributes of Christ's glorified body. For obvious reasons.