Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"What is meant by 'saved from permanent physical death'? Everyone except a few will experience physical death. My parents are believers in Christ and died over 2 decades ago."

I didn't say no one would die any more.

Your post did say "save from physical death". Yet, everyone, save just a few, will ALL die physically.

I said this:
"so Jesus saves everyone from 2 physical deaths."

I didn't say that either.

That was the conclusion of what was said.

I said this:
"No one is "saved from physical death" other than only a very small percentage of humanity. Enoch and Elijah from the OT and the rapture generation in the NT."

Ok. So you didn't understand what I said about that either.
That's 3 for 3. So far, you're batting 1000.

Or, your posts are batting zero. Your post never explained what "saved from physical death" meant. So I took it as it sounds.

I said this:
""D" contradicts "A/B/C". It's given to believers on the basis of faith, not works.
Again, this is contradicted."

By whom? You?"

No, by your own A, B, C, and D.

I said this:
"These statements claim that eternal life by believing in Christ and doing good works."
Yeah. That's what the scripture says.
You finally got one right.
But you think it's wrong.
oh well....[/QUOTE]
No, that's not what Scripture says.
Eph 2:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

And the verses don't say faith plus works either. And nor does any other verses.

 

[joseph lentz]

But the Bible doesn't teach that. And my argument is respectable because it is biblical. It's just that many seem to not respect what the Bible teaches on that subject.


Not at all. Those who understand grace understand WHY no believer can ever lose salvation, or, as Jesus put it; WILL NEVER PERISH. (Jn 10:28)

Does not Heb.6 and Heb.10:39 contradict your belief?

 

[FreeGrace]

Google it. Then come back and tell me it doesn't mean 'you can stop believing and you are still saved'.
Even FreeGrace will tell you that's what free grace doctrine teaches.

No, I've never said such a thing. It's ALWAYS a terrible thing when a believer apostatizes. They besmirch the Name of Christ.

iow, FG doctrine doesn't "teach" it. It teaches that believers who are disobedient and unfaithful to God will be severely punished in this life and lose out on all reward in eternity. They will NOT reign with Christ (2 Tim 2:12). That's what it teaches, yet the OSNAS seem to ignore that, and make up the idea that there are NO consequences for those who are disobedient or unfaithful. The opposite is true.

 

[FreeGrace]

Does not Heb.6 and Heb.10:39 contradict your belief?

No. Why would anyone think they do?

 

[JLB]

Okay. Add what...?

Add nothing.

Jesus is teaching His disciples that if they have a part of their body that causes them to sin, it would be better to deal with it, than to have it cause them to go to hell.

A disciple of Christ that has a member of his body that causes him to sin, should deal with it, rather than go to hell.

Jesus was not teaching unbelievers this, but believers.

8 “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire. Matthew 18:8-9


Paul taught the same thing.


19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21


Believers who practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.




JLB

 

[JLB]

PERMANENT physical death.
Nobody stays dead.
Everybody gets raised from the dead.

That was YOUR conclusion based on your misunderstanding.

It did.
You didn't get it.
I've posted what I mean and the scriptures that support my understanding multiple times.
You want to argue.
I'm not interested.
You have decided what you want to believe and refuse to seriously consider any other opinion.
Great!
Enjoy!

Bye! Bye!

Yes, brother.


Those who teach OSAS must redefine bible terms and words, so that they do not mean what they so plainly say.


IOW when contrasting eternal life and eternal death, the OSAS'er changes the word death to mean physical death, not eternal death.


My all time favorite comes from John 15;6

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

• Throw them into the fire and they are burned, is "redefined to mean": "removed from Christian service" 2

I guess they think by doing this, it will somehow keep God's word from coming to pass.



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Throw them into the fire and they are burned, is "redefined to mean": "removed from Christian service" 2

Right.
Just like the devil; was removed from service.

iakov the fool

 

[JLB]

Right.
Just like the devil; was removed from service.

iakov the fool

Yes sir!

 

[chessman]

Paul taught the same thing

Yes Paul, in Gal 5, taught the same thing as Jesus taught in Matt 18 which is different than what you teach.

Galatians 5:24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.​

When does Paul's teaching say that the fleshly desires were crucified in those (the little ones) that belong to Christ Jesus?

How about answering a question for once.

Believers who practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Guess what, you added the word "believers" to Paul's teaching. Even though Paul says those desires to do the works of the flesh are crucified in believers.

Here's Paul's teaching:

Galatians 5:21 (NASB) those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.​

Which you change to:

Believers who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.​

I guess you think by doing this, it will somehow change God's word from coming to pass.

Believers (who belong to Christ) have put works of the flesh to death!

Jesus is teaching His disciples that if they have a part of their body that causes them to sin, it would be better to deal with it, than to have it cause them to go to hell.

You've done the same thing with Jesus' teaching too. Where does Jesus say a little one's body part "causes" them to go to Hell. No need to answer because He doesn't. You just added it. Bad body parts cause stumbling NOT Hell!

Matthew 18:8 (NASB) “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.​

 

[JLB]

When does Paul's teaching say that the fleshly desires were crucified in those (the little ones) that belong to Christ Jesus?

How about answering a question for once.

Sorry, but Jesus does not quote "Paul's teaching" in his teaching to His disciples.


No mention of little ones, just Jesus talking to his disciples.

• Here is what Jesus says to His disciples, which if you are a disciple of Christ, then this pertains to you.

8 “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire. Matthew 18:8-9

• This is what Jesus said to His disciples.

Likewise, here is what Paul taught the Church at Galatia as well.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21


Here is the result of not walking in the Spirit, but rather practicing the works of the flesh.

• that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Those who heed the warning and learn to crucify the flesh, will be Christ's.

24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Galatians 5:24-25


Learning in this life, to, by the Spirit, put to death the deeds of the flesh, so that you will live is a choice we all must make.
This is learning the way of overcoming.

• 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

Learning in this life to present ourselves as a slave to God, and to practice righteousness, and reject becoming a slave to sin, so that in the end we will have everlasting life, is learning the way of overcoming.

• For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:19-23

Jesus taught this to His disciples. Overcoming the temptations that the body may cause you live in sin, is the subject of Jesus's teaching to His disciples.

• 8 “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire. Matthew 18:8-9

Paul taught the Church the same thing.


God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8


JLB

 

[chessman]

Sorry, but Jesus does not quote "Paul's teaching" in his teaching to His disciples

You missed Paul's point and my question about it:

Once again, let's read what Paul says about those that belong to Christ and answer a question about the ones that belong to Christ;

Galatians 5:24 (NASB) Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.​

When does Paul's teaching say that the fleshly desires were crucified in those that belong to Christ Jesus?

A. Now
B. Before time began
C. At the end of their life
D. Never

I say A as does Paul. What say you?

 

[JLB]

You missed Paul's point and my question about it:

Once again, let's read what Paul says about those that belong to Christ and answer a question about the ones that belong to Christ;

Galatians 5:24 (NASB) Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.​

When does Paul's teaching say that the fleshly desires were crucified in those that belong to Christ Jesus?

A. Now
B. Before time began
C. At the end of their life
D. Never

I say A as does Paul. What say you?

Yes, now is present tense, and is done daily.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


The result of not walking in the Spirit, but rather practicing the works of the flesh, is not inheriting the kingdom of God. Eternal death.

The fleshly desires must be put to death daily, and the choice is up to each one to practice the deeds of the flesh or to walk in the Spirit.

It's an either or choice.


There is no such passage that says crucifying the flesh is a one time thing done at the moment you believe.

• If you live according to the flesh, you will die.
• If you by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-12


This is an everyday lifestyle.

Not a one time event.



JLB

 

[JLB]

When does Paul's teaching say that the fleshly desires were crucified in those that belong to Christ Jesus?

A. Now
B. Before time began
C. At the end of their life
D. Never

I say A as does Paul. What say you?

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Galatians 5:24 KJV


But, Moreover, in addition to, : Strongs 1161 de



JLB

 

[chessman]

You didn't answer the question.

The fleshly desires must be put to death daily,

Nope. Not for those of us who belong to Jesus. Paul teaches otherwise.

Galatians 5:24 (NASB) Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.​

1. When does Paul's teaching say that the fleshly desires were crucified in those that belong to Christ Jesus?

A. Now
B. Before time began
C. At the end of their life
D. Never

I say A as does Paul. What say you?

2. True or false; Have those that belong to Christ crucified the flesh with its passions and desires?

I say true.
You say "The fleshly desires must be put to death daily"

There is no such passage that says crucifying the flesh is a one time thing done at the moment you believe.

I didn't say there was.

 

[JLB]

You missed Paul's point and my question about it:

Once again, let's read what Paul says about those that belong to Christ and answer a question about the ones that belong to Christ;

Galatians 5:24 (NASB) Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.​

When does Paul's teaching say that the fleshly desires were crucified in those that belong to Christ Jesus?

A. Now
B. Before time began
C. At the end of their life
D. Never

I say A as does Paul. What say you?

Here is my statement that you are trying to ignore:

• Here is what Jesus says to His disciples, which if you are a disciple of Christ, then this pertains to you.

8 “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire. Matthew 18:8-9

• This is what Jesus said to His disciples.

JLB

 

[chessman]

Here is what Jesus says to His disciples, which if you are a disciple of Christ, then this pertains to you.

Amen.

It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.

Ain't it grand that eternal life pertains to us rather than being cast into the everlasting fire?

 

[Nathan]

So I'm real curious here. Is salvation just a New Testament thing?

How come no Old Testament passages on it in here? Did the prophets not talk about it?

 

[JLB]

Nope. Not for those of us who belong to Jesus. Paul teaches otherwise.

Galatians 5:24 (NASB) Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
1. When does Paul's teaching say that the fleshly desires were crucified in those that belong to Christ Jesus?

A. Now
B. Before time began
C. At the end of their life
D. Never

I say A as does Paul. What say you?

False.

Now, the way you are trying to use it, is not in the verse.

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Galatians 5:24 KJV


But, Moreover, in addition to, : Strongs 1161 de


Nothing can distract from the warning that Paul gives the Church.

Step by Step instructions.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

• The works of the flesh are then defined.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like;

• The warning and result of walking in the flesh.

...of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Not inheriting the kingdom of God is the end result of a life of sin: practicing the works of the flesh.

• The fruit of the Spirit, is then defined.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

The result of walking in the Spirit, practicing the desires of the Spirit,which is crucifying the flesh, manifesting fruit unto holiness, in which the end result, in contrast to practicing the works of the flesh, is being Christ's forever.

• And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

• Same thing Paul warned the Romans:

19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:19-23


having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

• The end result of a life lived according to the Spirit, is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
• And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Ain't it grand that eternal life pertains to us rather than being cast into the everlasting fire?

Eternal Life pertains to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

To those who have crucified the flesh, with it's passions and desires.

For it is those, who have crucified the flesh, that are Christ's.


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

So I'm real curious here. Is salvation just a New Testament thing?

Salvation in the Old Testament was generally with reference to physical peril.

Psa 7:1-2 A Shiggaion of David, which he sang to the LORD concerning Cush a Benjaminite.
O LORD my God, in thee do I take refuge; save me from all my pursuers, and deliver me,
lest like a lion they rend me, dragging me away, with none to rescue.
Psa 31:15-16 My times are in thy hand; deliver me from the hand of my enemies and persecutors!
Let thy face shine on thy servant; save me in thy steadfast love!

The Law gave no promise of eternal life. Rather, it was in the form of an ancient middle eastern suzerain-vassal treaty in which God filled the role of the suzerain (High king, emperor). Israel's part of the treaty was to keep all the commandments. God's part was to bless them when they kept the covenant and curse them when they did not.

Rather then having eternal life, if the Israelites kept God's commands they would "...live, and that it may go well with you, and that you may live long in the land which you shall possess." (Deu 5:33)

Paul makes it clear that the Law cannot save.
Gal 3:21b "... if a law had been given which could make alive, then righteousness would indeed be by the law."
And by this statement Paul identifies righteousness with being made alive.
"Thus, the justification of the righteous, who were held captive by death and the devil unjustly or temporarily, is the very same thing as their vivification, in other words, imparting to them the of the uncreated and life-giving energy of the Holy Spirit through the sacrifice of the cross." (The Ancestral Sin, John S. Romanides p.94)

The New Testament introduces righteousness as the restoration of life. The righteous, from both the Old and New Testaments, still died because of the "infection" of sin from Adam. Salvation, then changes in the New Testament from the deliverance of the righteous from physical peril (enemies, plagues, famine, captivity) to the deliverance of the righteous from captivity by the devil in Sheol to eternal life in Christ Jesus.

The "letter" (of the law) kills those who put their hope in it a if it were a savior.
"If righteousness (restoration to life) comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly." (Gal 2:21)
Only the "Spirit gives life." (2 Cor 3:6)
The giving of life by the Spirit is justification.
"And if Christ live in you, the body is dead unto sin,and the Spirit is life unto righteousness." (Ro 8:10)

"When Paul writes that "God hath appeared in the flesh and was justified in the Spirit' (1Tim 3:16) he does not mean that Jesus was a sinner and was justified or saved, but being found in death unjustly, he was vivified (restored to life) in the Spirit." (The Ancestral Sin, John S. Romanides p.95)

So, salvation in the OT has to do with being restored to the promises of the covenant, (live long and prosper) and, in the New Testament it refers to the righteous being delivered from captivity to death to eternal life in Christ.

I hope that helps.


iakov the fool