Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[chessman]

Here we see that God "revoked" mans existence on the earth. Other translations say God 'repented'.

Yes, they were unbelievers (evil, hearts always inclined towards evil).

Genesis 6:3, 5 And Yahweh said, “My Spirit shall not abide with humankind forever in that he is also flesh. And his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” And Yahweh saw that the evil of humankind was great upon the earth, and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was always only evil. ​

So in Genesis, God revoking/repenting of the existence of all the unbelievers [this was before Abraham and Israel] means they all perished.

So in Genesis, God NOT revoking/repenting of the existence of all believers [Noah's family] means them NOT perishing. [while sealed up in the Ark floating upon the waters]

Yet in Romans, the anti-OSAS argument is; it's not about all believers [Jews and Gentiles] never perishing, merely Israel's gifts and calling still being available???

On the other hand, because of the promises God made to Abraham, the gifts and calling of Israel were not going to be taken back or destroyed.

Paul was speaking to Gentile believers in Romans 11.

Romans 11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Therefore, inasmuch as I am apostle to the Gentiles, I promote my ministry, ...
​

People who had God's "gifts" too:

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will give my spirit into your inner parts, and I will make it so that you will go in my rules, and my regulations you will remember, and you will do them. ​

Speaking to gifted Gentiles, Paul says:

Romans 11:12 And if their [Israel's] trespass means riches for the world and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fullness mean? ​

What did they (Israel) lose, Salvation??? Hardly.

Romans 11:4-5 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have left for myself seven thousand people who have not bent the knee to Baal.” So in this way also at the present time, there is a remnant selected by grace.
​

Just like then/them, God's selection of His elect (Jew or Gentiles) is irrevocable.

Romans 11:7, 11 What then? What Israel was searching for, this it did not obtain. ... But the elect obtained it, and the rest were hardened, I say then, they did not stumble so that they fell, did they? May it never be! But by their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles, in order to provoke them to jealousy. ​

And what does this irrevocability mean for the Gentiles??? Riches!
And what does it (irrevocability) mean in the future???
Fullness!

 

[chessman]

In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice

I noticed you didn't bold "in the same way then" within your argument that 11:29 is about "God still loves Israel and that those gifts and calling are irrevocable", versus all of God's "gifts and calling" being irrevocable. Interesting!

In the same way then, Elijah thought God had 'rejected' all individuals but himself (of course), also today your anti-OSAS believes God will reject 1,000s upon 1,000s (one in particular) of individual people whom He supposedly foreknew.

Romans 11:2-3 God has not rejected his people, whom he foreknew! Or do you not know, in the passage about Elijah, what the scripture says—how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life!” ​

And if you think "His people" was not a reference to individuals, then read the capitalized verse you also didn't bold:

4But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.

 

[Nathan]

Yes, they were unbelievers (evil, hearts always inclined towards evil).

Genesis 6:3, 5 And Yahweh said, “My Spirit shall not abide with humankind forever in that he is also flesh. And his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” And Yahweh saw that the evil of humankind was great upon the earth, and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was always only evil. ​

So in Genesis, God revoking/repenting of the existence of all the unbelievers [this was before Abraham and Israel] means they all perished.

So in Genesis, God NOT revoking/repenting of the existence of all believers [Noah's family] means them NOT perishing. [while sealed up in the Ark floating upon the waters]

Yet in Romans, the anti-OSAS argument is; it's not about all believers [Jews and Gentiles] never perishing, merely Israel's gifts and calling still being available???



Paul was speaking to Gentile believers in Romans 11.

Romans 11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Therefore, inasmuch as I am apostle to the Gentiles, I promote my ministry, ...
​

People who had God's "gifts" too:

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will give my spirit into your inner parts, and I will make it so that you will go in my rules, and my regulations you will remember, and you will do them. ​

Speaking to gifted Gentiles, Paul says:

Romans 11:12 And if their [Israel's] trespass means riches for the world and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fullness mean? ​

What did they (Israel) lose, Salvation??? Hardly.

Romans 11:4-5 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have left for myself seven thousand people who have not bent the knee to Baal.” So in this way also at the present time, there is a remnant selected by grace.
​

Just like then/them, God's selection of His elect (Jew or Gentiles) is irrevocable.

Romans 11:7, 11 What then? What Israel was searching for, this it did not obtain. ... But the elect obtained it, and the rest were hardened, I say then, they did not stumble so that they fell, did they? May it never be! But by their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles, in order to provoke them to jealousy. ​

And what does this irrevocability mean for the Gentiles??? Riches!
And what does it (irrevocability) mean in the future???
Fullness!

Actually, Gods 'repentance' of mankind included Noah and his family. However, Noah found grace in Gods eyes.

What you have to remember is that if Noah jumped overboard he would have died with the rest of mankind.

Just like Lot's family. His extended family in the city was told about the destruction coming, and their freedom from it if they left. Lot's wife was saved from the destruction, but when she turned back, she was made a pillar of salt.

Right, irrevocable does not mean we can't deny what God offers, only that His offer still stands. It is a wonderful thing to know God does not change and if we turn back to Him, He will not cast us out.

Jeremiah 17
14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved, for you are my praise.
15 Behold, they say to me, "Where is the word of the LORD? Let it come!"
16 I have not run away from being your shepherd, nor have I desired the day of sickness. You know what came out of my lips; it was before your face.

 

[MarkT]

Let me be clear. We know what he "intended" in Rom 11:29 by what he specifically described as the gifts of God before 11:29.

How can those 3 things NOT be what he had in mind when he wrote 11:29? That verse is about the "gifts of God" being irrevocable. And Paul noted 3 of the gifts of God before writing 11:29. So they are obviously what he had in mind, or intended.

If he did NOT intend to include any of those 3 specifically described gifts in 11:29, he would HAVE HAD TO say so plainly. But he did no such thing.


It DOES mean that God won't revoke His gifts. So, who's left to take away one's eternal life? And please cite Scripture.


If any recipient of eternal life ends up without it, means he has been changed. From the state of eternal life to the state of spiritual death.


How do we know this? Where did Paul EVER describe "God's promise to Israel" as a gift? Nowhere is where. We do know what Paul considered some of the gifts of God because he specifically described 3 of them.

A "promise to Israel" isn't a gift by any stretch of the imagination. A gift is an actual thing. Not a promise.


While Paul did speak of spiritual gifts "further on", as noted, we don't have to look "further on" because Paul noted spiritual gifts in the FIRST chapter of Romans. And then 2 other gifts of God specifically; justification and eternal life.

Look up 'irrevocable' in the dictionary. It means 'can not be changed'.

By using the word 'irrevocable' Paul is invoking the law and the prophets.
as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.” Rom. 11:26-27

He wants the reader to understand God's word can not be changed. The gifts and the call of God are God's word/promise. In this world everything undergoes change; everything gets older and it passes away. But God's word is unchangeable because God Himself is unchangeable.

 

[Gregg T]

What you have to remember is that if Noah jumped overboard he would have died with the rest of mankind.

Noah could not have jumped overboard, because God made it impossible for him to do so.

Gen 7:16 "Those that entered, male and female of all flesh, entered as God had commanded him; and the LORD closed it behind him."

Same way with believing into Christ.

Joh 3:15-16 "that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 10:28 "And I give eternal life to them, and they shall not perish to the age, never! And not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I noticed you didn't bold "in the same way then" within your argument that 11:29 is about "God still loves Israel and that those gifts and calling are irrevocable", versus all of God's "gifts and calling" being irrevocable. Interesting!

In the same way then, Elijah thought God had 'rejected' all individuals but himself (of course), also today your anti-OSAS believes God will reject 1,000s upon 1,000s (one in particular) of individual people whom He supposedly foreknew.

Romans 11:2-3 God has not rejected his people, whom he foreknew! Or do you not know, in the passage about Elijah, what the scripture says—how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life!” ​

And if you think "His people" was not a reference to individuals, then read the capitalized verse you also didn't bold:

“I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” 5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice." (Romans 11:4-5 NASB)

Seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal. This proves that 'once you are saved, and then you stop believing, you still have eternal life' how??

What it shows is exactly what Paul is saying in the passage: There is always a remnant in Israel that believes, showing that God's gifts and his calling are irrevocable from Israel, even though they, as a nation of individuals don't believe and are cut out of the tree because of that unbelief.

There's NOTHING in Romans 11 to suggest "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (vs.29) means a person who believes, then stops believing, still has eternal life. That interpretation was invented by OSAS without consideration of what Paul himself says it means.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Noah could not have jumped overboard, because God made it impossible for him to do so.

Gen 7:16 "Those that entered, male and female of all flesh, entered as God had commanded him; and the LORD closed it behind him."

Same way with believing into Christ.

Joh 3:15-16 "that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 10:28 "And I give eternal life to them, and they shall not perish to the age, never! And not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand."

The account says he left the ark when the flood subsided. Couldn't have been closed up to the point of not being able to un-close it.

 

[Gregg T]

What you have to remember is that if Noah jumped overboard he would have died with the rest of mankind.

Also, you are remembering a hypothetical truth that does not exist, and then you base doctrine on what does not exist; and then teach that others also have to remember a hypothetical truth that does not exist.

The statement that you have made here is by far the most obvious example of the flawing thinking of OSNAS.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Also, you are remembering a hypothetical truth that does not exist, and then you base doctrine on what does not exist; and then teach that others also have to remember a hypothetical truth that does not exist.

The statement that you have made here is by far the most obvious example of the flawing thinking iof OSNAS.

Remember, the person who left the house during the Passover died. He had to stay in the house in order to be saved. He was not sealed in against his will. He had the freedom to leave the house, and God warned what would happen if they did.

 

[Nathan]

Noah could not have jumped overboard, because God made it impossible for him to do so.

Gen 7:16 "Those that entered, male and female of all flesh, entered as God had commanded him; and the LORD closed it behind him."

Same way with believing into Christ.

Joh 3:15-16 "that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 10:28 "And I give eternal life to them, and they shall not perish to the age, never! And not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand."

Yes, God closed the door. That means no one could come in after it was closed. It says nothing to the fact there were ways to get out. There were obviously many windows to get out from.

This is besides the point though. The door into salvation is only open for the time that is allowed, then God will close it.

Everyone who believes Christ is salvation, just as Noah believed the ark would save him, will be saved. Obviously Noah kept believing the ark was the best place to be.

 

[Nathan]

Also, you are remembering a hypothetical truth that does not exist, and then you base doctrine on what does not exist; and then teach that others also have to remember a hypothetical truth that does not exist.

The statement that you have made here is by far the most obvious example of the flawing thinking of OSNAS.

I don't know what OSNAS believes or doesn't. I believe the truth, and teach, that it has been given to us. There is only a few things that is spoken of as impossible. One of which is this;

Hebrews 6
17 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath,
18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.

Noah had a strong encouragement to stay in the ark - the waters outside were all around him.

The only hypothetical thought we should not try to teach others is that which is not truth. There is nothing untrue about what I posted.

Galatians 6
6 One who is taught the word must share all good things with the one who teaches.
7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.
10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

I am sowing to the Spirit, not the flesh. To teach one only has to 'do' something, a moment in time 'act', is fleshly.

To believe that you will enter eternity based on something you did, instead of something you believe, is by far a clear contrast between the flesh and Spirit.

Don't be deceived - God is not mocked.

 

[Gregg T]

Yes, God closed the door. That means no one could come in after it was closed. It says nothing to the fact there were ways to get out. There were obviously many windows to get out from.

There is no fact there were ways to get out, but you make an assumption there were; then you firmly believe in your assumption as opposed to limiting your beliefs on what Scripture does say. Can a man unseal what God has sealed?

You have made an assumption that there were "obviously many windows". Yet the Scripture states only that Gen 6:16 "You shall make a window for the ark, and finish it to a cubit from the top;" Can you see that you are willing to add to the Scriptures, and then base a belief on that erroneous assumption?

If that is not enough for you to understand your own thinking process, then consider this: the text of Gen 6-8 mentions a window in the ark, but not the size of it. Yet, you assume the window is big enough to "get out from." Scripture states that it is at least large enough for a raven, a dove, and a man's hand to go through (Gen 8:6-9); yet you assume it could be larger, and then base a belief on that erroneous assumption.

Scripture describes life in Christ as eternal, and that those who have eternal life will never perish. The OSNAS says but eternal could actually mean temporary, and never could actually mean in some cases - if the window is big enough, if there is a way of escape, if a man could unseal, if a man could jump out of God's hand, if I add to Scripture what is not obviously there.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's interesting how what one insists is true blocks out even the ability to hear their opponents argument, let alone agree with it. But I know that's how indoctrinations work.

What would make one think I haven't read the OSNAS view? I've refuted it from Scripture.

Just read the emboldened parts. Those summarize the passage. Then if you want to argue context, that is there, too, for you to refer to for clarity and support.

There is NOTHING in the bolded parts that speaks of loss of eternal life, or these so-called "gifts to Israel".

1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3“Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” 4But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” 5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

7What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

8just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”

9And David says,
“LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.

10“LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.”

11I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”

27“THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”

28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Romans 11:1-32 NASB

Doesn't matter how many times the entire passage is quoted, none of it separates 6:23 from 11:29. God's gifts are irrevocable and eternal life is one of those gifts. And Paul used plain language to say so.

Even at this present time there is a believing remnant in Israel that has the gifts and calling of God which demonstrates that God still loves Israel and that those gifts and calling are irrevocable.

And? One of the gifts of God is eternal life, and that gift is irrevocable, which refutes OSNAS.

And they are irrevocable because of the promise God made to their Fathers, the Patriarchs.

Amen!!

THAT is the meaning of "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable".

Huh? That's not a meaning of anything. And it sure isn't a description of what God's gifts are. But not to worry; Paul had already done that: described 3 of God's gifts specfically, so we don't have to wonder, assume, or presume what Paul meant by "gifts of God".

It comes right out of the passage itself. But there is absolutely NOTHING there to even remotely suggest that it means a person can believe, then stop believing, and they still have eternal life.

Denying the obvious meaning of "irrevocable" is one's freedom, but that doesn't make it right.

OSAS un-rightly divided vs. 29 out from the context and decided that's what it means.

The context for 11:29 are any verses that actually speak of God's gifts. And there is NOTHING in the immediate passage that does so. So we have to look back at what Paul described as God's gifts. And there are 3 of them.

The real problem here is the refusal to accept what "irrevocable" means in regard to God's gifts.

What suprises me the most is your acceptance of the fact that God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable, yet still clinging to OSNAS. That is contradictory.

 

[FreeGrace]

I agree. . God does not have any regrets in His purpose of giving and calling.

Since God has no regrets about the gifts that He gives, it should be obvious that He won't take any of them away.

Leaving OSNAS with the problem of trying to defend the position that the believer him/herself can throw/give/lose the gift of eternal life by some means.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"So far, so good. Now, where is the plain language of Scripture that teaches that one who has eternal life can end up without it?

Is this an admission of being confused about what God's Word says?"

Confused? Well, I may be able to help you out on that.

The question was directed at an admission on your part about being confused. I'm not confused, nor do I need help in that regard.

That's a good question. Hope you will actually take the time to read these plain words of Scripture.

Ezekiel 18
25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.
27 Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life.
28 Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live."

Yes, they are plain words.

Now, a question for you. How does one know that Ezekiel was referring to spiritual death when he used the word "die"?

I hope that there is consensus that all humans are born spiritually dead, and therefore cannot die AGAIN. If Ezekiel meant "shall die spiritually" when he wrote "shall die", then he was teaching that one can die spiritually over and over, because all humans sin over and over.

But that is very silly idea. We're all born spiritually dead. And once we have been born again through faith in Christ, we CANNOT spiritually die again, or Christ's sacrifice on the cross was for nothing and was a total waste.

Is that what you're arguing for?

 

[FreeGrace]

Look up 'irrevocable' in the dictionary. It means 'can not be changed'.

Sure. And now I'll explain what that means, sincd there seems to be confusion on the part of OSNAS.

When one believes, they HAVE eternal life (John 5:24). iow, it's their possession. Jesus also promised in John 10:28 that those He gives eternal life, WILL NEVER PERISH. That's quite plain. On the basis of RECEIVING eternal life, one WILL NEVER PERISH.

Note how there are NO conditions, such as OSNAS adds, in order to NEVER PERISH. Once received, the gift of eternal life means that one WILL NEVER PERISH.

So, one who has the gift HAS eternal life. That is what CANNOT BE CHANGED. IOW, one who has eternal life CANNOT PERISH, CANNOT DIE SPIRITUALLY. There CANNOT be any change in their status.

It sure doesn't mean or even suggest that the gift of eternal life continues on in some way while the one who was given it can end up in hell. That would just render words meaningless.

By using the word 'irrevocable' Paul is invoking the law and the prophets.
as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.” Rom. 11:26-27

No. There is no equality with the gift of eternal life with taklng away sins. Christ died for everyone, yet the majority of humanity will end up in hell for eternity. Yet Jesus died for their sins.

One must receive the gift of eternal life in order to NEVER PERISH.

Those who receive the gift WILL NEVER PERISH. Simple as that.

He wants the reader to understand God's word can not be changed.

Neither can the born again eternal life in the believer be changed, so that by any means the person will end up in hell.

The gifts and the call of God are God's word/promise.

There are NO verses that describe God's Word or God's promises as gifts. But Paul actually DID describe 3 of God's gifts.

In this world everything undergoes change; everything gets older and it passes away. But God's word is unchangeable because God Himself is unchangeable.

While true, this is not the discussion.

The discussion is on the specific gift of eternal life being irrevocable, which means eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

Noah could not have jumped overboard, because God made it impossible for him to do so.

Gen 7:16 "Those that entered, male and female of all flesh, entered as God had commanded him; and the LORD closed it behind him."

Same way with believing into Christ.

Great example!!

Joh 3:15-16 "that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 10:28 "And I give eternal life to them, and they shall not perish to the age, never! And not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand."

Amen and amen!!

 

[Nathan]

There is no fact there were ways to get out, but you make an assumption there were; then you firmly believe in your assumption as opposed to limiting your beliefs on what Scripture does say. Can a man unseal what God has sealed?

You have made an assumption that there were "obviously many windows". Yet the Scripture states only that Gen 6:16 "You shall make a window for the ark, and finish it to a cubit from the top;" Can you see that you are willing to add to the Scriptures, and then base a belief on that erroneous assumption?

If that is not enough for you to understand your own thinking process, then consider this: the text of Gen 6-8 mentions a window in the ark, but not the size of it. Yet, you assume the window is big enough to "get out from." Scripture states that it is at least large enough for a raven, a dove, and a man's hand to go through (Gen 8:6-9); yet you assume it could be larger, and then base a belief on that erroneous assumption.

Scripture describes life in Christ as eternal, and that those who have eternal life will never perish. The OSNAS says but eternal could actually mean temporary, and never could actually mean in some cases - if the window is big enough, if there is a way of escape, if a man could unseal, if a man could jump out of God's hand, if I add to Scripture what is not obviously there.

I make no assumptions. You trying to discredit me will not work in people being able to see the truth. I knew when I typed "many" someone would jump on that.

Your 'translation' says window. Mine says roof. The best way to interpret that is to say skylight. You assume the size, not I. I state there are many 'windows' simply because the ammount of people and animals inside there dictate that they need oxygen.

We do know Noah was told to cover the inside and outside with pitch. That would have sealed it tight. They would have had windows to allow air in and out.

You call out my assumptions as erroneous, do you assign your assumption as erroneous that they lived with one small window for oxygen?

God gave us a brain to reason. I'm simply using that faculty. Life in Christ is eternal. Life outside of Christ is not. I'm not sure what OSNAS believes or doesn't, the Bible says eternal life is eternal, and if you deny Christ He will deny you.

You assume God locks us up as animals. Who said anything about Jumping out of Gods hand?

Do you believe a person in Christ can do anything and still be with God in eternity?

 

[FreeGrace]

Remember, the person who left the house during the Passover died. He had to stay in the house in order to be saved. He was not sealed in against his will. He had the freedom to leave the house, and God warned what would happen if they did.

I couldn't help notice a glaring absence of any Scriptural reference.

However, there IS Scripture about having to put the sacrifical lamb's blood on the doorposts. Ex 12:3-13.

Note especially v.7 - Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs

and v.12-13 -
12 "On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn — both men and animals — and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the Lord. 13 The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt.

Nothing about leaving the house.

This is just another example of how OSNAS misreads lots of passages.

 

[Nathan]

Since God has no regrets about the gifts that He gives, it should be obvious that He won't take any of them away.

Leaving OSNAS with the problem of trying to defend the position that the believer him/herself can throw/give/lose the gift of eternal life by some means.

That leaves OSNAS the problem, not me.

I don't have any regrets calling you and telling you I have a $20 bill here for you. It's all yours. Now, if you keep it great, if you leave it your call, if you take and burn it - your choice.

Your gonna have to explain to me how God changes.

Ezekiel 18
25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.
27 Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life.
28 Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live."