Nathan
Member
Do gifts and callings have to be accepted?
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?
Join Elected By Him for a devotional on Ephesians 6:14-15
https://christianforums.net/threads/devotional-selecting-the-proper-shoes.109094/
Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works
- Thread starter Jim Parker
- Start date
dirtfarmer
Member
hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here
Then would you say that once a person is in the ark, they are in it until God causes it to rest on a new earth?[/QUOTE]
Unless you want to burn in hell, yes.
Gregg T
Member
A Christian should not want to do anything against God. He should not stop believing in God for any length of time. The question is what are the repercussions. I say he can not lose his salvation. You say otherwise.
I have a question for you, being that this thread is about being saved by grace through faith. Do you think the OT saints are saved by grace through faith?
Gregg T
Member
Could Christ ever say to a believer who stops believing, "I never knew you"?
chessman
Member
Who told you that
?What you have to remember is that God's word is true:
Genesis 6:18 And I will establish my covenant with you, and you must go into the ark—you, and your sons, and your wife, and the wives of your sons with you.
On my view, Noah (along with his family) "must" go into the ark. God said it, I believe it. It's theoretically possible that Noah could have decided to stay outside the ark to close the door behind his family and seal around it with pitch. But faith led him to go into the ark, leaving the door open as commanded. Noah allowed God to, well, be God.
You say:
God said:
Genesis 6:19 And of every living thing, from all flesh, you must bring two from every kind into the ark to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female.
The Ark kept them alive, precisely as God said it would.
Actually, God's word doesn't say His repentance/regret/grief included Noah.
Genesis 6:8-9 But Noah found favor (grace) in the eyes of Yahweh. These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, without defect in his generations. Noah walked with God.
Genesis 6:7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy annihilate mankind whom I have created from the surface of the earth—not only man, but the animals and the crawling things and the birds of the air—because it deeply grieves Me to see mankind’s sin and I regret that I have made them.”
He said to Noah "them", not you and them.
Mankind's sin grieves God.
Noah's righteousness and lack of defect and more to the point (Noah's finding favor, which means grace) pleased God.
Noah means rest.
Rest is "walking with God".
So then, it is your view that one cannot give away their salvation?That leaves OSNAS the problem, not me.
So, how does any of this relate in any way to the discussion of eternal security?
I don't understand your question. How does God "change" anyway? The Bible says that God doesn't change. So your question seems rather bogus to me.
Does this passage teach that a person can repeatedly die spiritually as a result of each time they sin?
Or, how many times can a person die spiritually? And support your answer with Scripture, please.
Sure. From www.thefreedictionary.com/irrevocable
adj
not able to be revoked, changed, or undone; unalterable
So, please explain what it means to "not able to be undone" and we'll be on the same page.
OK, so it seems your view is that a soul can die from each act of sin. So then, how many times can a soul die for sinning? Just once, or after each act?
It seems to me that your views only put you in a corner that you can't get out of.
It seems my post wasn't comprehended. What I posted was that those who believe that there are any reasons why a person can lose their salvation MEANS that Christ died for nothing and sin or lifestyle trumps the work of Christ on the cross.
How can that not be clear? Jesus Christ died for all sins. Therefore, sin cannot be the reason for going to hell. Sadly, it seems not too many Christians understand that.
There is only ONE REASON for a person going to hell. For not having eternal life. Rev 20:15. Which is an irrevocable gift, per Rom 6:23 and 11:29.
Since the Bible says that "having believed" (aorist tense) ARE sealed IN HIM, a guarantee for the day of redemption (Eph 1:13,14), please show from Scripture where one who IS SEALED can be unsealed?
ps: if there are any such verses, you've just proven the Bible to be inconsistent, and therefore, not God's immutable Word. Congrats!
So, what was the consequence of going outside before morning? Nothing at all.21Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel and said to them, “Go and take for yourselves lambs according to your families, and slay the Passover lamb. 22“You shall take a bunch of hyssop and dip it in the blood which is in the basin, and apply some of the blood that is in the basin to the lintel and the two doorposts; and none of you shall go outside the door of his house until morning." (Exodus 12:21-22 NASB)
Should have included the VERY NEXT VERSE, but since it wasn't, I'll add it now:
23 When the LORD goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down.
That was the issue; blood on the door posts. If there was blood, the destroyer passed over the house and the firstborn didn't die.
So your point about not going outside was just a smokescreen that was totally irrelevant.
I said this:
"When one believes, they HAVE eternal life (John 5:24). iow, it's their possession. Jesus also promised in John 10:28 that those He gives eternal life, WILL NEVER PERISH. That's quite plain. On the basis of RECEIVING eternal life, one WILL NEVER PERISH.
Note how there are NO conditions, such as OSNAS adds, in order to NEVER PERISH. Once received, the gift of eternal life means that one WILL NEVER PERISH.
So, one who has the gift HAS eternal life. That is what CANNOT BE CHANGED. IOW, one who has eternal life CANNOT PERISH, CANNOT DIE SPIRITUALLY. There CANNOT be any change in their status.
It sure doesn't mean or even suggest that the gift of eternal life continues on in some way while the one who was given it can end up in hell. That would just render words meaningless."
Which is why Jesus said that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28. The ONLY CONDITION for NEVER PERISHING is to receive the irrevocable gift of eternal life.
"When one believes, they HAVE eternal life (John 5:24). iow, it's their possession. Jesus also promised in John 10:28 that those He gives eternal life, WILL NEVER PERISH. That's quite plain. On the basis of RECEIVING eternal life, one WILL NEVER PERISH.
Note how there are NO conditions, such as OSNAS adds, in order to NEVER PERISH. Once received, the gift of eternal life means that one WILL NEVER PERISH.
So, one who has the gift HAS eternal life. That is what CANNOT BE CHANGED. IOW, one who has eternal life CANNOT PERISH, CANNOT DIE SPIRITUALLY. There CANNOT be any change in their status.
It sure doesn't mean or even suggest that the gift of eternal life continues on in some way while the one who was given it can end up in hell. That would just render words meaningless."
Why would it have to? Paul already noted 3 of God's gifts previously before he got to 11:29.
There is no evidence from anywhere in the Bible that God's gifts are "related to the covenant". If that were true, there'd be at least 1 verse saying so. This is just more presumption and assumption because the Word of God doesn't say what is being claimed.
True, but so what? And it can't be undone. And neither can the gifts that Paul ACTUALLY described be undone. That means eternal life cannot be undone. iow, once given, it remains with the recipient.
Which is why Jesus said that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28. The ONLY CONDITION for NEVER PERISHING is to receive the irrevocable gift of eternal life.
Doesn't have to.
Doesn't have to. Jesus told us WHEN one receives the gift of eternal life; when they believe. And from 10:28, we know that those who receive eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.
OK. Which changes nothing I've posted
Where does the Bible teach that one can "leave" (whatever that means) eternal life?
How would anyone have such power to do that. It seems that basically, OSNAS claims that a human being has more power to undo being a new creature with eternal life than God does in creating the new creature with eternal life.
How can that be true?
Those who understand Scripture have no problem with this verse. It seems those who don't understand, won't accept any explanation beyond the old standby; loss of salvation.
Nathan
Member
I would say if they are wise, like Noah and his family, they will stay inside until God opens the door again.
I would say that God will not tell them to abandon ship.
Nathan
Member
I agree with you that a believer should not want anything that is against God - but because we still live in a world of sin, and a body of sin - we face temptations. This should be proof enough to see that eternal life and sin cannot be one in the same.
I believe 100% that ALL people, from creation till the end, are saved by grace through faith.
Heb 11:39-40
And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
1Pe 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes, he will say that. The parable of the soil speaks of those people who believed but who do not mature and never bear the fruit of 'knowing' Christ (love for others). They stop believing before they come to maturity, having had a weak faith that was not rooted deeply enough to endure the trials, troubles, and temptations of life. They believe, for a while, but because their roots are not deep they never mature and bear the fruit of the Spirit, the fruit of knowing. Christ will turn them away at the resurrection as those whom he never knew, not those who never believed.
Nathan
Member
Most certainly.
Psa 88:3-5
For my soul is full of troubles,
and my life draws near to Sheol.
I am counted among those who go down to the pit;
I am a man who has no strength,
like one set loose among the dead,
like the slain that lie in the grave,
like those whom you remember no more,
for they are cut off from your hand.
There are other passages that speak of God making those who turn from Him as if they never existed. We cannot impose our idea of what 'memory' is like onto God.
Nathan
Member
I am not sure about giving or not, because I do not know what this "OSNAS" group is. I personally do not think someone can 'give' away their salvation for the simple fact it is not ours to give away.
No, a person does not die spiritually every time they sin. You miss the whole point of what sin is. Sin is separation from God. We call that death, but its a different kind of death than what we inherited from Adam.
This is why those in Christ have eternal life. When they sin, Christ is the propitiation for that sin. He makes intersession for us. If a person is outside of Christ - whether they were ever in Him or not - they do not have an intercessor for their sin.
The only way a person could be 'ok' outside of Christ is to be sinless. Do you believe that a person can never sin?
Cygnus
Member
John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never turn away.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never turn away.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Nathan
Member
You don't see my view quite yet I see. No, I do not believe the soul died from each act of sinning.
The death spoken of in Ezekiel is permanent death. That comes at the time of the end, when all men are judged. Then, the souls will die.
You honestly believe sin is not what people will be judged for hell on? What else is there to judge someone on? This makes no sense.
What caused a person to not have eternal life? If it's not sin, I am not sure what else there is.