Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Gregg T]

I am sowing to the Spirit, not the flesh. To teach one only has to 'do' something, a moment in time 'act', is fleshly.

To believe that you will enter eternity based on something you did, instead of something you believe, is by far a clear contrast between the flesh and Spirit.

You are assuming that the "act . . . based on something you did", the initial act of believing into Christ, is not followed by what God does afterwards - fulfilling His promise that we would never perish.

 

[MarkT]

Sure. And now I'll explain what that means, sincd there seems to be confusion on the part of OSNAS.

When one believes, they HAVE eternal life (John 5:24). iow, it's their possession. Jesus also promised in John 10:28 that those He gives eternal life, WILL NEVER PERISH. That's quite plain. On the basis of RECEIVING eternal life, one WILL NEVER PERISH.

Note how there are NO conditions, such as OSNAS adds, in order to NEVER PERISH. Once received, the gift of eternal life means that one WILL NEVER PERISH.

So, one who has the gift HAS eternal life. That is what CANNOT BE CHANGED. IOW, one who has eternal life CANNOT PERISH, CANNOT DIE SPIRITUALLY. There CANNOT be any change in their status.

It sure doesn't mean or even suggest that the gift of eternal life continues on in some way while the one who was given it can end up in hell. That would just render words meaningless.


No. There is no equality with the gift of eternal life with taklng away sins. Christ died for everyone, yet the majority of humanity will end up in hell for eternity. Yet Jesus died for their sins.

One must receive the gift of eternal life in order to NEVER PERISH.

Those who receive the gift WILL NEVER PERISH. Simple as that.


Neither can the born again eternal life in the believer be changed, so that by any means the person will end up in hell.


There are NO verses that describe God's Word or God's promises as gifts. But Paul actually DID describe 3 of God's gifts.


While true, this is not the discussion.

The discussion is on the specific gift of eternal life being irrevocable, which means eternal security.

I asked you to look up the definition of 'irrevocable'. The definition doesn't require an explanation. It's a definition. A definition is a statement of the exact meaning of a word, especially in a dictionary. All you have to do is open a dictionary and look up the word 'irrevocable'. What does 'irrevocable' mean?

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"So far, so good. Now, where is the plain language of Scripture that teaches that one who has eternal life can end up without it?

Is this an admission of being confused about what God's Word says?"

The question was directed at an admission on your part about being confused. I'm not confused, nor do I need help in that regard.


Yes, they are plain words.

Now, a question for you. How does one know that Ezekiel was referring to spiritual death when he used the word "die"?

I hope that there is consensus that all humans are born spiritually dead, and therefore cannot die AGAIN. If Ezekiel meant "shall die spiritually" when he wrote "shall die", then he was teaching that one can die spiritually over and over, because all humans sin over and over.

But that is very silly idea. We're all born spiritually dead. And once we have been born again through faith in Christ, we CANNOT spiritually die again, or Christ's sacrifice on the cross was for nothing and was a total waste.

Is that what you're arguing for?

Read the whole 18th chapter and you will see it says specifically "the soul".

Where do you get the notion that if someone rejects Christ sacrifice that it was for nothing? I don't find that to be Biblical at all.

 

[Nathan]

You are assuming that the "act . . . based on something you did", the initial act of believing into Christ, is not followed by what God does afterwards - fulfilling His promise that we would never perish.

It is, and will, be followed with never perishing - in Christ. Those not in Him will perish.

Do you believe we are in eternity with God right now?

Do you believe a person can do anything they want after coming to Christ in faith and still be in eternity with God?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nothing about leaving the house.

This is just another example of how OSNAS misreads lots of passages.

21Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel and said to them, “Go and take for yourselves lambs according to your families, and slay the Passover lamb. 22“You shall take a bunch of hyssop and dip it in the blood which is in the basin, and apply some of the blood that is in the basin to the lintel and the two doorposts; and none of you shall go outside the door of his house until morning." (Exodus 12:21-22 NASB)

 

[atpollard]

Do you believe a person can do anything they want after coming to Christ in faith and still be in eternity with God?

What will someone who is really in Christ WANT to do?

"Take delight in the LORD, and he will give you the desires of your heart." (Psalm 37:4)

 

[MarkT]

When one believes, they HAVE eternal life (John 5:24). iow, it's their possession. Jesus also promised in John 10:28 that those He gives eternal life, WILL NEVER PERISH. That's quite plain. On the basis of RECEIVING eternal life, one WILL NEVER PERISH.

Note how there are NO conditions, such as OSNAS adds, in order to NEVER PERISH. Once received, the gift of eternal life means that one WILL NEVER PERISH.

So, one who has the gift HAS eternal life. That is what CANNOT BE CHANGED. IOW, one who has eternal life CANNOT PERISH, CANNOT DIE SPIRITUALLY. There CANNOT be any change in their status.

It sure doesn't mean or even suggest that the gift of eternal life continues on in some way while the one who was given it can end up in hell. That would just render words meaningless.

Rom.11:29 does not say anything about believing and eternal life. The gifts and the call are related to the covenant. The covenant is everlasting. It can not be changed.

Rom. 11:29 doesn't say anything about a man's status.

John 5:24 doesn't say anything about a man who used to believe. In fact Jesus said, "he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life." So it follows that he who can not hear his word does not have eternal life.

 

[chessman]

Seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal. This proves that 'once you are saved, and then you stop believing, you still have eternal life' how??

That's not my argument. Like Paul said, Elijah thought there were none left but him. God corrected him. Same as today. Those that belong to God, belong to God, period.


Ask someone who thinks they are saved after death by something other than God's gracious (and irrevocable) gift through Faith that's NOT of yourself, how to prove anti-OSAS. They come up with all sorts of ideas.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

My view is that salvation is by God's grace through faith that's not of myself. So you'd have to ask someone who thinks it's faith within themselves, that saves in the end.

There's NOTHING in Romans 11 to suggest "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (vs.29) means a person who believes, then stops believing, still has eternal life.

There's nothing in Romans to suggest the gifts or the calling of God are revocable for Jews or Gentiles.

That interpretation was invented by OSAS without consideration of what Paul himself says it means.

Like Calvin (for example) didn't consider what Paul says.

 

[Gregg T]

I make no assumptions. You trying to discredit me will not work in people being able to see the truth. I knew when I typed "many" someone would jump on that.

Your 'translation' says window. Mine says roof. The best way to interpret that is to say skylight. You assume the size, not I. I state there are many 'windows' simply because the ammount of people and animals inside there dictate that they need oxygen.

We do know Noah was told to cover the inside and outside with pitch. That would have sealed it tight. They would have had windows to allow air in and out.

You call out my assumptions as erroneous, do you assign your assumption as erroneous that they lived with one small window for oxygen?

God gave us a brain to reason. I'm simply using that faculty. Life in Christ is eternal. Life outside of Christ is not. I'm not sure what OSNAS believes or doesn't, the Bible says eternal life is eternal, and if you deny Christ He will deny you.

You assume God locks us up as animals. Who said anything about Jumping out of Gods hand?

Do you believe a person in Christ can do anything and still be with God in eternity?

You say that you "make no assumptions" and then invent a hypothetical scenario about their need for oxygen in the arc. When I consulted the text it only mentions one window, so I stay within the confines of the text and do not wonder if that one window could possibly let in enough oxygen for all the passengers to live. I would not assume or reason that multiple windows were necesary, and therefor more than one had to be there.

I am not attacking you, but your reasoning. I am trying to demonstrate that you are inventing non-existent possible scenarios and stating hypothetical situations, then by way of reason with your faculties as you stated, making doctrinal assumptions based on possibility and hypothesis.

Believe into Christ - never perish, have eternal life.

///

Why do you say I "assume God locks us up as animals"? It is for freedom that God set us free. It is into His captivity that He led a host captive.

 

[Gregg T]

You assume God locks us up as animals. Who said anything about Jumping out of Gods hand?

I hear OSNAS folks say although believers are in His hands, we can chose to leave His hands. My bad, if this does not decribe your position.

Do you believe a person in Christ can do anything and still be with God in eternity?

A yes or no answer would not communicate my understanding of salvation. Once a person enters into Christ by believing into Him, he will never perish and he has eternal (everlasting, forever, unto the ages, never-ending) life. No hypothesis, potential scenario, or contengency can undo that.

 

[Gregg T]

It is, and will, be followed with never perishing - in Christ. Those not in Him will perish.

Followed with never perishinh? I do not understand this wording.

Do you believe we are in eternity with God right now?

Believers in Christ are with God right now, and for eternity.

Do you believe a person can do anything they want after coming to Christ in faith and still be in eternity with God?

see responce above. Christians can not lose eternal life, but can lose a reward or future privileges.

 

[chessman]

Right, irrevocable does not mean we can't deny what God offers, only that His offer still stands.

Interesting, I don't find Paul discussing what God offers. A calling (a summons), sure.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Actually, Gods 'repentance' of mankind included Noah and his family. However, Noah found grace in Gods eyes.

What you have to remember is that if Noah jumped overboard he would have died with the rest of mankind.

Just like Lot's family. His extended family in the city was told about the destruction coming, and their freedom from it if they left. Lot's wife was saved from the destruction, but when she turned back, she was made a pillar of salt.

Right, irrevocable does not mean we can't deny what God offers, only that His offer still stands. It is a wonderful thing to know God does not change and if we turn back to Him, He will not cast us out.

Jeremiah 17
14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved, for you are my praise.
15 Behold, they say to me, "Where is the word of the LORD? Let it come!"
16 I have not run away from being your shepherd, nor have I desired the day of sickness. You know what came out of my lips; it was before your face.

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

I was reading some of the latter post and read yours; one question, How would it be possible for Noah to "jump ship" seeing that it was Lord who shut the door? Noah even waited until God told him to "Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee" Genesis 8:15-16, before leaving the ark after the waters had subsided.

 

[Nathan]

What will someone who is really in Christ WANT to do?

"Take delight in the LORD, and he will give you the desires of your heart." (Psalm 37:4)

I would think that those "really" in Christ would be satisfied and content. But, we know that's not always the case.

 

[Nathan]

You say that you "make no assumptions" and then invent a hypothetical scenario about their need for oxygen in the arc. When I consulted the text it only mentions one window, so I stay within the confines of the text and do not wonder if that one window could possibly let in enough oxygen for all the passengers to live. I would not assume or reason that multiple windows were necesary, and therefor more than one had to be there.

I am not attacking you, but your reasoning. I am trying to demonstrate that you are inventing non-existent possible scenarios and stating hypothetical situations, then by way of reason with your faculties as you stated, making doctrinal assumptions based on possibility and hypothesis.

Believe into Christ - never perish, have eternal life.

///

Why do you say I "assume God locks us up as animals"? It is for freedom that God set us free. It is into His captivity that He led a host captive.

Actually, the passage in Genesis only describes the placement of 'a' window. We also do not see the specifics of everything else in the ark, yet we know there had to be a way he built it.

God did not say to only put a single window in. The reasoning God gave Noah is the same reasoning we have - and should use.

 

[Nathan]

I hear OSNAS folks say although believers are in His hands, we can chose to leave His hands. My bad, if this does not decribe your position.


A yes or no answer would not communicate my understanding of salvation. Once a person enters into Christ by believing into Him, he will never perish and he has eternal (everlasting, forever, unto the ages, never-ending) life. No hypothesis, potential scenario, or contengency can undo that.

I think a yes or no answer might help you understand the truth.

I can say that 'no' a believer in Christ cannot do whatever he wants. Can you say he can?

 

[Nathan]

Followed with never perishinh? I do not understand this wording.


Believers in Christ are with God right now, and for eternity.

see responce above. Christians can not lose eternal life, but can lose a reward or future privileges.

I agree, believers cannot lose eternal life. They can leave it right where they turned away from it.

If a person denies Christ, will Christ deny them before the Father?

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

I was reading some of the latter post and read yours; one question, How would it be possible for Noah to "jump ship" seeing that it was Lord who shut the door? Noah even waited until God told him to "Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee" Genesis 8:15-16, before leaving the ark after the waters had subsided.

I can only answer with a question.

Have you ever heard of a person 'jumping ship' the same way they boarded the vessel?

We know Noah did not, so there is no way of knowing how he could have. Just that God did not lock him in chains on the ship.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I can only answer with a question.

Have you ever heard of a person 'jumping ship' the same way they boarded the vessel?

We know Noah did not, so there is no way of knowing how he could have. Just that God did not lock him in chains on the ship.

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

No, I have never heard of a person jumping ship the same way they boarded the vessel. Neither have I ever heard of a vessel's door being closed by God, other than the Ark.

The thing that I don't understand is, Why would Noah want to leave the ark after 40 days and nights of rain. By now it should be obvious to Noah that there was God and what he said was truth. Why would any one not believe him. The bible does not tells us but I believe even those that were not in the ark, believed in God at this point of time, but the door of salvation was already closed.

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

No, I have never heard of a person jumping ship the same way they boarded the vessel. Neither have I ever heard of a vessel's door being closed by God, other than the Ark.

The thing that I don't understand is, Why would Noah want to leave the ark after 40 days and nights of rain. By now it should be obvious to Noah that there was God and what he said was truth. Why would any one not believe him. The bible does not tells us but I believe even those that were not in the ark, believed in God at this point of time, but the door of salvation was already closed.

Honestly, I don't think Noah ever considered jumping ship. I think all it would take is one look at the water outside to squelch that idea.

I agree, I bet those drowning had second thoughts that what Noah said was true.