Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Nathan]

Since the Bible says that "having believed" (aorist tense) ARE sealed IN HIM, a guarantee for the day of redemption (Eph 1:13,14), please show from Scripture where one who IS SEALED can be unsealed?

ps: if there are any such verses, you've just proven the Bible to be inconsistent, and therefore, not God's immutable Word. Congrats!

Please show me from Scripture where one who is sealed cannot be unsealed.

You still have to prove God changes if you think a righteous person who turns from God will not die.

Ezekiel 18
4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.
27 Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life.
28 Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live."

 

[Nathan]

Where does the Bible teach that one can "leave" (whatever that means) eternal life?

How would anyone have such power to do that. It seems that basically, OSNAS claims that a human being has more power to undo being a new creature with eternal life than God does in creating the new creature with eternal life.

How can that be true?


Those who understand Scripture have no problem with this verse. It seems those who don't understand, won't accept any explanation beyond the old standby; loss of salvation.

Christ is eternal life - yes or no?

If a person leaves Christ, they leave eternal life, unless you believe Christ is not eternal life.

You don't seem to grasp the severity of sin. Sin is what separates us from God. It is what separated God from Christ. We cannot downplay the truth of how sin is horrible.

We still sin, believers still sin. We need Christ to be the intercession for us to God. If He does not intercede for us, who will?

Where does it say that a person who denies Christ will still be interceded for by Christ?

 

[FreeGrace]

I am not sure about giving or not, because I do not know what this "OSNAS" group is. I personally do not think someone can 'give' away their salvation for the simple fact it is not ours to give away.

Isn't your view that one's salvation can be lost? Or that a believer can end up in hell??

No, a person does not die spiritually every time they sin.

Then why quote the passage from Ezek?

You miss the whole point of what sin is.

Then you've missed the meaning of the passage from Ezek.

Sin is separation from God. We call that death, but its a different kind of death than what we inherited from Adam.

Please review the passage from Ezek.

This is why those in Christ have eternal life. When they sin, Christ is the propitiation for that sin. He makes intersession for us. If a person is outside of Christ - whether they were ever in Him or not - they do not have an intercessor for their sin.

It seems your view is that the only way for a believer to end up in hell is for the sealing IN HIM with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13) is for this sealing to be unsealed. Is that correct? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

The only way a person could be 'ok' outside of Christ is to be sinless. Do you believe that a person can never sin?

No person during their lifetime can be sinless. They will be sinless while being filled with the Holy Spirit.

But ANY sin, no matter how "small" it may be, will result in either grieving the Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).

But it is impossible for any believer who is filled with the Spirit to sin. 1 John 3:9

 

[FreeGrace]

You don't see my view quite yet I see. No, I do not believe the soul died from each act of sinning.

The death spoken of in Ezekiel is permanent death.

It appears that your first sentence contradicts your second sentence. The passage in Ezek speaks of death as a result of sin. But you've just claimed that the soul doesn't die from each act of sin. So what is the passage about?

That comes at the time of the end, when all men are judged. Then, the souls will die.

But one who has been given eternal life cannot die. Which refutes the entire notion that a believer can end up in hell.

You honestly believe sin is not what people will be judged for hell on? What else is there to judge someone on? This makes no sense.

I gave the Scriptural support for my statement. Did you not do your homework? OK, I'll do it for you. From Revelation 20 -
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

So, on what basis is one thrown into the lake of fire, from this passage?

What caused a person to not have eternal life?

They never received it. So, how does one receive the gift of eternal life? Belief in the Savior: John 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 11:25-26.

If it's not sin, I am not sure what else there is.

I just gave the answer to your question from Scripture. It's yours to believe or not.[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace]

Please show me from Scripture where one who is sealed cannot be unsealed.

The text itself clearly indicates that. This sealing is a guarantee for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

You still have to prove God changes if you think a righteous person who turns from God will not die.

No one has to prove silliness. The passage in Ezek is about God's divine discipline including physical death. Which will be painful, according to Heb 12.

The contrast in Ezek is between physical life and physical death. It cannot be about eternal death, or it would mean one repeatedly dies eternally for each act of sin. Which is quite silly.

 

[FreeGrace]

Christ is eternal life - yes or no?

Of course He is. And He gives eternal life to believers (John 11:25-26), because He said He does. And those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH, because He said so. John 10:28

If a person leaves Christ, they leave eternal life, unless you believe Christ is not eternal life.

Prove this claim from Scripture. Eph 1:13,14 refutes the notion that any believer can be unsealed.

You don't seem to grasp the severity of sin.

I would suggest your grip on Scripture isn't very tight.

Sin is what separates us from God.

We're born separated.

It is what separated God from Christ. We cannot downplay the truth of how sin is horrible.

I understand fully. But it seems OSNAS (loss of salvation) doesn't have any grasp of grace.

We still sin, believers still sin. We need Christ to be the intercession for us to God. If He does not intercede for us, who will?

He intercedes for us regardless of what we do. That's what is missing from OSNAS. It's all in Hebrews.

Where does it say that a person who denies Christ will still be interceded for by Christ?

Where does it clearly and plainly say that He doesn't?

Eph 1:13,14 is plain enough. Having believed in a single occurrence results in being sealed IN HIM for the day of redemption.

That said, how can one sealed end up in hell? Please explain.

 

[Cygnus]

Christ is eternal life - yes or no?

Yes.

A Christian is promised eternal life. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Eternal life is the promise of spending forever in heaven with God. God promises, “Believe and you will have eternal life.” For a Christian to lose salvation, eternal life would have to be redefined. The Christian is promised to live forever. Does eternal not mean “eternal”? rest of article.

 

[Cygnus]

Prove this claim from Scripture. Eph 1:13,14 refutes the notion that any believer can be unsealed.

A Christian is marked by God and sealed by the Spirit. “You also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory” (Ephesians 1:13–14). At the moment of faith, the new Christian is marked and sealed with the Spirit, who was promised to act as a deposit to guarantee the heavenly inheritance. The end result is that God’s glory is praised. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to erase the mark, withdraw the Spirit, cancel the deposit, break His promise, revoke the guarantee, keep the inheritance, forego the praise, and lessen His glory. rest of article.

 

[Eugene]

The death spoken of in Ezekiel is permanent death. That comes at the time of the end, when all men are judged. Then, the souls will die.

I’m not sure where you read that a believer will ever face judgment such as the Great White Throne that unbelievers do, but our judgment is ongoing as we walk in the Spirit; judgment begins at the house of God according to 1Pet 4:17. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? This is occurring now as Jesus walks among the candlesticks (Churches - Rev 2:1) and had John write of such correction needed in Revelation Chapters Two & Three. When we see Jesus He will have our reward with Him. (

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Unbelievers receive no reward, but judgment.

Below are different Bible versions showing that we have eternal life right now, and that we definitely will never face the judgment of the dead.
New International Version
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
New Living Translation
"I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.
English Standard Version
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Berean Study Bible
Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.
New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
King James Bible
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
International Standard Version
"Truly, I tell all of you emphatically, whoever hears what I say and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged, but has passed from death to life.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life.

 

[Eugene]

Please show me from Scripture where one who is sealed cannot be unsealed.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[Cygnus]

If one can lose their salvation...they already have lost it.

 

[Eugene]

You still have to prove God changes if you think a righteous person who turns from God will not die.

For the Christian there is certainly a sin unto death; even Moses experienced that for not believing God and refusing to sanctifying Him, and yet do you believe that moses is in hell today, and if not, why?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If one can lose their salvation...they already have lost it.

Good to see you in the non-OSAS camp finally.

 

[Cygnus]

Good to see you in the non-OSAS camp finally.

Yes Jethro...we're both lost forever with no hope of salvation. Everytime we sin we separate ourselves from God.

Heb 6:4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallenc away, to be brought back to repentance.

 

[Gregg T]

I asked 'Could Christ ever say to a believer who stops believing, "I never knew you" '.

Yes, he will say that. The parable of the soil speaks of those people who believed but who do not mature and never bear the fruit of 'knowing' Christ (love for others). They stop believing before they come to maturity, having had a weak faith that was not rooted deeply enough to endure the trials, troubles, and temptations of life. They believe, for a while, but because their roots are not deep they never mature and bear the fruit of the Spirit, the fruit of knowing. Christ will turn them away at the resurrection as those whom he never knew, not those who never believed.

You are redefing "never" and "knew." You reason that "never knew" somehow becomes 'as whom he never knew.' Seriously, you accept that as an honest account?

Christ says, Joh 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;"

And,

Joh 10:28 "and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

The character / type / kind of life that Christians have is described as "eternal." It is not described as potentially eternal, or eternal for a while.

 

[Gregg T]

Most certainly.

Psa 88:3-5
For my soul is full of troubles,
and my life draws near to Sheol.
I am counted among those who go down to the pit;
I am a man who has no strength,
like one set loose among the dead,
like the slain that lie in the grave,
like those whom you remember no more,
for they are cut off from your hand.

There are other passages that speak of God making those who turn from Him as if they never existed. We cannot impose our idea of what 'memory' is like onto God.

Your reasoning is still based on 'as if' and faulty comparisons.

Please re-read the Scripture you posted above - like one, like the slain, like those . . . and did you not read his opening statement, "O LORD, the God of my salvation,"

 

[Nathan]

Yes.

A Christian is promised eternal life. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Eternal life is the promise of spending forever in heaven with God. God promises, “Believe and you will have eternal life.” For a Christian to lose salvation, eternal life would have to be redefined. The Christian is promised to live forever. Does eternal not mean “eternal”? rest of article.

So can a person have eternal life if they are not in Christ?

 

[Gregg T]

But it seems OSNAS (loss of salvation) doesn't have any grasp of grace.

Absolutely. Amen.

Or the qualiy and character of salvation, of being set in Christ.

 

[Nathan]

I’m not sure where you read that a believer will ever face judgment such as the Great White Throne that unbelievers do, but our judgment is ongoing as we walk in the Spirit; judgment begins at the house of God according to 1Pet 4:17. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? This is occurring now as Jesus walks among the candlesticks (Churches - Rev 2:1) and had John write of such correction needed in Revelation Chapters Two & Three. When we see Jesus He will have our reward with Him. (

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Unbelievers receive no reward, but judgment.

Below are different Bible versions showing that we have eternal life right now, and that we definitely will never face the judgment of the dead.
New International Version
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
New Living Translation
"I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.
English Standard Version
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Berean Study Bible
Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.
New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
King James Bible
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
International Standard Version
"Truly, I tell all of you emphatically, whoever hears what I say and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged, but has passed from death to life.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life.

Matthew 25
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?'
40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?'
45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.'
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

I think that everyone has their own idea of what 'judgment' is. I just know the above that Jesus spoke of has not happened yet.

 

[Nathan]

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Right, we are sealed for the day of redemption. If we turn from Christ before the day of redemption, then how can one say they will be redeemed?

Ezekiel 18
25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.
27 Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life.
28 Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live."

Can a person be righteous apart from Christ?