Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[GodsGrace]

This is an attempt to CHANGE what the Bible has already SAID by this attempt to CHANGE the aorist tense (having believed) into a present tense "believes", which does not occur in the original Greek.
Eph 1:13 - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

This is significant. From a single occurrence of having believed, one IS sealed. v.14 says "for the day of redemption".


This is equivalent to saying that the seal is broken, undone, or un-sealed. Why doesn't the Bible say that?


Let's rightly divide the Word of Truth, as Paul encouraged Tim in 2 Tim 2:15. By "saving" the people out of Egypt, He delivered or rescued them from Egypt. And that's the core meaning of "sozo".

And it's clear that with the exception of Caleb and Joshua, the entire rest of the 1st generation of the Exodus died physically in the desert during the 40 year march for having rejected the minority report from C and J. Even Moses didn't enter the land, but for a different reason. He disobeyed God's command to speak to the rock and lost his ticket into the land.

So Jde 1:5 isn't about anything eternal at all. God did deliver His people from Egypt and later killed those who did not believe.

There is nothing about loss of eternal life at all in that verse.

Hi FreeGrace,
I can't remember if you believe in Free Will.
That's reallly all I'd like to know.
We've had this discussion before...

 

[FreeGrace]

Gal 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

1Jo 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

There, now you see it.

It's not what I see but what you're not seeing. The Greek word for "severed" has 2 uses, according to my lexicon. To free from, dissever from. Paul would have contradicted himself if he meant to be unsealed in Him. Because Eph 1:13,14 is clear about being sealed from a single occurrence of "having believed" and the sealed one being a possession of God and is guaranteed for the day of redemption.
Eph 1:13-14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory.

What is being said if not a guarantee of eternal security by means of this sealing?

So, to be "free from" Christ doesn't mean to lose salvation, as commonly assumed or presumed, but by means of returning to the failed Law system which Christ fulfilled by His own sacrifice, one has become free from (severed from) the benefits of being in union with Him.

What are the benefits? Fellowship, which is described as being "filled with the Holy Spirit" in Eph 5:18 or "walking by means of the Spirit" in Gal 5:16. Those so filled or walking by His means cannot sin. That is a definite benefit.

The flip side is to either grieve the Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quench the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19), which means loss of fellowship, or not being filled with the Spirit and not walking by His means.

So, one is "severed" from Christ WHENEVER they are sinning, which means they are grieving the Spirit and quenching Him.

If my analysis is incorrect, please take it point by point and please show me where I'm wrong in my analysis.

 

[Nathan]

I think the better statement is that salvation means God "sticks us in His hand" and never lets go. Which is John 10:29.


Thanks for the opportunity to clarify my statement.

It's an opinion because there are no verses that say so. That is why.


And this is an opinion. Jesus was clear about people who have believed in Him but "for a while". Meaning, their faith at some point ceased. They no longer believed in Him. Which is equivalent to denying Him as Savior. So those who have believed, can deny Him.

But where are any Scriptures that in plain language say that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved.


No. For those who never believed in Christ, they are not in Christ. And they HAVE (not "can") denied Him. Either actively in rejection of His claims, or passively by lack of concern or interest.


Yes, this is absolutely true, and the foundation for our eternal security. Because there are no verses that speak of how this seal can be undone or un-sealed. And the seal is said to be a pledge (promise) towards God's own possession (the sealed believer) for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14


Yes sir!


Of course not. As you've noted, no one is sealed who is not in Christ. And only those "having believed" (aorist - simple occurrence) are sealed, and for the day of redemption.


Depends on how the word "destroyed" is meant. It can mean physical destruction (death), or eternal, depending on the context.


Correct.


Nope. Jesus said to believe in Him for eternal life. John 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 11:25-26


John 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 11:25-26


Well, that's a statement that cannot be said ever again.


Why would one equate "reign with Him" to mean "saved by Him"?? There is no reason. Reigning with Christ is on the basis of enduring. That's a reward.

So, to "deny Him" is the direct opposite of "enduring". So, the result of denying Him is the direct opposite of reigning with Him, meaning that we will be denied the privilege of reigning with Him.

Not every believer will reign with Him. Only the enduring ones.

Your opinions do not change the plain language we read. You want plain words, yet you deny them when they are posted for you.

You want to find life in the words of the Bible and deny them to speak of the only one who has eternal life.

John 5:39 (ESV)
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,

Those not in Christ are not sealed. If your separated from Christ you cannot be still sealed.

John 5:40 (ESV) 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

 

[Nathan]

This is an attempt to CHANGE what the Bible has already SAID by this attempt to CHANGE the aorist tense (having believed) into a present tense "believes", which does not occur in the original Greek.
Eph 1:13 - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

This is significant. From a single occurrence of having believed, one IS sealed. v.14 says "for the day of redemption".


This is equivalent to saying that the seal is broken, undone, or un-sealed. Why doesn't the Bible say that?


Let's rightly divide the Word of Truth, as Paul encouraged Tim in 2 Tim 2:15. By "saving" the people out of Egypt, He delivered or rescued them from Egypt. And that's the core meaning of "sozo".

And it's clear that with the exception of Caleb and Joshua, the entire rest of the 1st generation of the Exodus died physically in the desert during the 40 year march for having rejected the minority report from C and J. Even Moses didn't enter the land, but for a different reason. He disobeyed God's command to speak to the rock and lost his ticket into the land.

So Jde 1:5 isn't about anything eternal at all. God did deliver His people from Egypt and later killed those who did not believe.

There is nothing about loss of eternal life at all in that verse.

John 5:45 (ESV) 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope.

John 5:46 (ESV) 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

John 5:47 (ESV) 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

Numbers 15:30 (ESV) 30 But the person who does anything with a high hand, whether he is native or a sojourner, reviles the LORD, and that person shall be cut off from among his people.

Numbers 15:31 (ESV) 31 Because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken his commandment, that person shall be utterly cut off; his iniquity shall be on him."

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Each person has their own opinion about every verse.

That's the ultimate loss of fellowship. The prodigal son fell away from his father. He was still the son, and the father remained the father.

Is the relationship of salvation no different than "fellowship"?

The phrase "make our home with him" seems clear to be a reference to living in harmony with someone. Which is fellowship.

Le'ts consider a physical analogy; parent and child. The child has "taken up residence" with his parents. While that relationship is genetically permanent, is there always fellowship between parent and child, just because the child has "taken up residence" in the home?
I've asked this a number of times, but none who believe salvation can be lost have addressed this with an answer.

The Son is IN everyone who has believed. The Holy Spirit is also described as the "Spirit of Christ" in Rom 8:9 and 1 Pet 1:11. This is a permanent sealing, per Eph 1:13,14.

Please provide any verse that says that any believer can be unsealed from the Holy Spirit.
That's the only way your views can have any credibility."

It's not about fellowship.

Opinion noted. And my request ignored is also noted. The one about any verse that speaks of the sealing with the Holy Spirit being un-done or unsealed.

We are at home in the body. So when Jesus said the Father and the Son would make their home with him, he is saying within the body wherein the man dwells.

The mistake here is to equate being "at home" with "dwelling". They are not the same. To be "at home" indicates a level of comfort, beyond just being there. That's the difference that must be understood in order to rightly divide the word of truth.

So if a man loves him, he will keep his word and he will become a dwelling place for the Son and the Father; He will become God's temple, God's dwelling place/home. Our home will become God's home.

The dwelling place is established by God Himself, not by our "keeping His word". The sealing with the Holy Spirit proves that. We are sealed from "having believed", meaning a single occurrence of belief. Not obedience, not endurance, etc.

1 Cor. 3:16 Paul said, "Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?

This verse refutes the error of equating "at home" with "dwelling".

Consider Prov 21:9 It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman in a wide house.
This verse is repeated in Prov 25:24.

Note the issue is dwelling, and compares dwelling (living) alone in a small space (in a corner of the housetop) than "with a brawling woman" in a wide place.

This shows dwelling without fellowship. To dwell means to live. And as a result of believing in Christ, His Spirit lives within us. But this is NOT fellowship. We are COMMANDED TO have fellowship with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 1:9 God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful. This is an invitation ("called you").
2 Cor 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Phil 2:1 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion
Phil 3:10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death
1 John 1:3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1 John 1:6-7
6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

So, to be "at home" is way more than simply living in a certain place (dwell); it means to dwell in fellowship.

Can a person be have fellowship with a "brawling woman"? Clearly not.

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi FreeGrace,
I can't remember if you believe in Free Will.
That's reallly all I'd like to know.
We've had this discussion before...

yep.

 

[FreeGrace]

Your opinions do not change the plain language we read. You want plain words, yet you deny them when they are posted for you.

I have said that about the view of loss of salvation many times.

You want to find life in the words of the Bible and deny them to speak of the only one who has eternal life.

I deny these words.

John 5:39 (ESV)
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,

Are you not aware of who this was said to?? Pharisees, who thought they earned eternal life by keeping the Law. Rather than believing in the Messiah.

Those not in Christ are not sealed.

Correct

If your separated from Christ you cannot be still sealed.

I just explained the Greek word for "severed" and what it means, which is NOT to lose salvation or be unsealed from the Spirit.

John 5:40 (ESV) 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Refers to those who refused to believe in Christ for eternal life.

 

[GodsGrace]

yep.

Thanks.
You know why I'm asking. No use to get into it.
Re the Prodigal Son.

If he had stayed away, do you think he would have shared in the inheritance?
Of course you do.

So if I have a son that hates me and lives far away and has lost all fellowship with me,
he still gets an inheritance?
Of course he does.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"This is an attempt to CHANGE what the Bible has already SAID by this attempt to CHANGE the aorist tense (having believed) into a present tense "believes", which does not occur in the original Greek.
Eph 1:13 - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

This is significant. From a single occurrence of having believed, one IS sealed. v.14 says "for the day of redemption".

This is equivalent to saying that the seal is broken, undone, or un-sealed. Why doesn't the Bible say that?"

John 5:45 (ESV) 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope.

Moses doesn't accuse me.

John 5:46 (ESV) 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

I believe all that Moses wrote.

John 5:47 (ESV) 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

I believe his words, and I believe Jesus' words.

Numbers 15:30 (ESV) 30 But the person who does anything with a high hand, whether he is native or a sojourner, reviles the LORD, and that person shall be cut off from among his people.

This verse seems totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Numbers 15:31 (ESV) 31 Because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken his commandment, that person shall be utterly cut off; his iniquity shall be on him."

Where have I "broken His commandment"?

Interesting that my post wasn't even addressed, much less providing any verse that directly speaks to the sealing with the Holy Spirit being undone.

 

[Nathan]

It's not what I see but what you're not seeing. The Greek word for "severed" has 2 uses, according to my lexicon. To free from, dissever from. Paul would have contradicted himself if he meant to be unsealed in Him. Because Eph 1:13,14 is clear about being sealed from a single occurrence of "having believed" and the sealed one being a possession of God and is guaranteed for the day of redemption.
Eph 1:13-14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory.

What is being said if not a guarantee of eternal security by means of this sealing?

So, to be "free from" Christ doesn't mean to lose salvation, as commonly assumed or presumed, but by means of returning to the failed Law system which Christ fulfilled by His own sacrifice, one has become free from (severed from) the benefits of being in union with Him.

What are the benefits? Fellowship, which is described as being "filled with the Holy Spirit" in Eph 5:18 or "walking by means of the Spirit" in Gal 5:16. Those so filled or walking by His means cannot sin. That is a definite benefit.

The flip side is to either grieve the Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quench the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19), which means loss of fellowship, or not being filled with the Spirit and not walking by His means.

So, one is "severed" from Christ WHENEVER they are sinning, which means they are grieving the Spirit and quenching Him.

If my analysis is incorrect, please take it point by point and please show me where I'm wrong in my analysis.

No one is severed from Christ when they are sinning. We cannot go back and forth being in Him and out of Him.

We are severed from Christ when we turn from Him to another way of believing for righteousness. There will be many that day who say, "Did I not believe in you at one time"?

Galatians 3:11 (ESV)
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."

The righteous live by faith, not hold to "works" of the law to justify them. You will not be justified by works done - even the 'work' of saying a prayer.

Galatians 5:4 (ESV)
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

1 John 5:4 (ESV) 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

1 John 5:5 (ESV) 5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:10 (ESV) 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.

1 John 5:11 (ESV) 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:12 (ESV) 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

1 John 5:13 (ESV) 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John was writing to the ones who believe - not the ones who did believe something at one point in time.

 

[FreeGrace]

Thanks.
You know why I'm asking. No use to get into it.

Not really. I have to assume it is related to the idea that having free will means the freedom to undo what God does when one believes. Or something like that.

Re the Prodigal Son.

If he had stayed away, do you think he would have shared in the inheritance?
Of course you do.

He already did "share in the inheritance". Before he left the father and wandered into the far country.

So if I have a son that hates me and lives far away and has lost all fellowship with me,
he still gets an inheritance?
Of course he does.

Seems you've finally come to the realization that one has eternal security. Sweet!

 

[Nathan]

I have said that about the view of loss of salvation many times.


I deny these words.


Are you not aware of who this was said to?? Pharisees, who thought they earned eternal life by keeping the Law. Rather than believing in the Messiah.


Correct


I just explained the Greek word for "severed" and what it means, which is NOT to lose salvation or be unsealed from the Spirit.


Refers to those who refused to believe in Christ for eternal life.

Correct. The ones who refuse to believe in Christ, but rather put their trust in something they did.

1 John 5:4 (ESV) 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

1 John 5:5 (ESV) 5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:10 (ESV) 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.

1 John 5:11 (ESV) 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:12 (ESV) 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

1 John 5:13 (ESV) 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 5:12 (ESV) 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

If you do not have the Son you do not have life.

 

[FreeGrace]

No one is severed from Christ when they are sinning.[/QUTOE]
A stunning claim, for sure. Who is on the throne of your life when you are sinning? You or Christ? The answer isn't ambiguous. It's YOU.

We sin because we choose to. We take over and do what WE want, not what HE wants.

We cannot go back and forth being in Him and out of Him.

I never said this. But we do go back and forth about being in or out of fellowship with Him. Just like husbands and wives. They get along, then they argue, then they get along, and then they argue, etc.

We are severed from Christ when we turn from Him to another way of believing for righteousness.

Yes, but not the way it seems you're taking it.

There will be many that day who say, "Did I not believe in you at one time"?

Is this from Scripture, or just one's imagination?

Galatians 3:11 (ESV)
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."

The righteous live by faith, not hold to "works" of the law to justify them. You will not be justified by works done - even the 'work' of saying a prayer.
Galatians 5:4 (ESV)
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
1 John 5:4 (ESV) 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.
1 John 5:5 (ESV) 5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
1 John 5:10 (ESV) 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.
1 John 5:11 (ESV) 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:12 (ESV) 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1 John 5:13 (ESV) 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John was writing to the ones who believe - not the ones who did believe something at one point in time.

So, what is the point? How does any of these verses show an unsealing with the Holy Spirit for any reason? None do.

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"This is an attempt to CHANGE what the Bible has already SAID by this attempt to CHANGE the aorist tense (having believed) into a present tense "believes", which does not occur in the original Greek.
Eph 1:13 - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

This is significant. From a single occurrence of having believed, one IS sealed. v.14 says "for the day of redemption".

This is equivalent to saying that the seal is broken, undone, or un-sealed. Why doesn't the Bible say that?"

Moses doesn't accuse me.


I believe all that Moses wrote.


I believe his words, and I believe Jesus' words.


This verse seems totally irrelevant to the discussion.


Where have I "broken His commandment"?

Interesting that my post wasn't even addressed, much less providing any verse that directly speaks to the sealing with the Holy Spirit being undone.

1 John 3:23 (ESV) 23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.

1 John 3:24 (ESV) 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

You can't earn righteousness by obeying His commandment a singular time.

Hebrews 10
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.
24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,
25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people."
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[FreeGrace]

Correct. The ones who refuse to believe in Christ, but rather put their trust in something they did.

This would be those who never believed. Because Eph 1:13,14 says that "having believed" we are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, a deposit guaranteeing God's own possession for the day of redemption.

Eternal security.

1 John 5:4 (ESV) 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

1 John 5:5 (ESV) 5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:10 (ESV) 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.

1 John 5:11 (ESV) 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:12 (ESV) 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

1 John 5:13 (ESV) 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 5:12 (ESV) 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

If you do not have the Son you do not have life.

None of these verses support the notion of conditional security. And your last statement is correct, and applies to those who never believed.

Those who "have believed" are sealed, and are given eternal life, and Jesus promises they will never perish. John 10:28

And note the next verse: v.29 -

28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand

Let's list the points:
1. Jesus gives them (believers) eternal life.
2. The result: they shall never perish. Nothing mentioned about conditions for those who receive eternal life.
3. no one can remove the believer from Jesus' hand.
4. God the Father is greater than everyone.
5. And no one can remove the believer from God's hand.
6. The words "no one" means "no person". Or "no angel". Doesn't matter.

The believer is a person. Therefore, "no one" includes even the believer as who CANNOT snatch out of God's hand.

Eternal security.

 

[Nathan]

Hebrews 10
32 But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings,
33 sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated.
34 For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one.
35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.
37 For, "Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay;
38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

Gods 'seal' is His promise to us that when the day of redemption comes, those who have done His will are the ones who will receive the promise.

The ones who do His will do not shrink back and become destroyed, but the ones who have faith and preserve their soul.

Revelation 22:14 (ESV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[Nathan]

Let's list the points:
1. Jesus gives them (believers) eternal life.
2. The result: they shall never perish. Nothing mentioned about conditions for those who receive eternal life.
3. no one can remove the believer from Jesus' hand.
4. God the Father is greater than everyone.
5. And no one can remove the believer from God's hand.
6. The words "no one" means "no person". Or "no angel". Doesn't matter.

1. Jesus gives them the Spirit, which is eternal life in us.
2. Those who have the Spirit have life, those who do not have not life.
3. No one can take you from the Fathers hand, but sin can lead you away.
4. God is greater than everyone, and only He has life and immortality.
5. No one can take you from the Fathers hand, but sin can lead you away.
6. The words "no one" means "no one".

Seems straight forward to me. Those in Christ have life, those who are not in Christ do not have life.

2Ti 2:19
But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

1Jo 5:13-17
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

There is sin that leads to death and sin that does not lead to death. We know that this 'death' cannot be temporal/physical death, because we know that 'sin' is what brings physical death to begin with. All sin results in physical death.

Therefore, the death John speaks of cannot be physical death, but death of the soul. We know that those who believe in the name of the Son of God have eternal life - they will not die. Therefore, the 'sin' John speaks of is the sin of turning from Christ. ALL sin will be forgiven except that sin that denies Christ and the work He does in a person by the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Nathan]

Thanks.
You know why I'm asking. No use to get into it.
Re the Prodigal Son.

If he had stayed away, do you think he would have shared in the inheritance?
Of course you do.

So if I have a son that hates me and lives far away and has lost all fellowship with me,
he still gets an inheritance?
Of course he does.

When does he get the inheritance? Do you force him to take it if he does not want it? Wouldn't he have to come back and receive it?

What if he dies before you give it to him?

I think people miss the aspect of the story that the son repented and returned home. He did not show up expecting anything, which is a clear sign of his repentance. The fact he returned was a clear sign of his faith.

 

[MarkT]

I said this:
"Each person has their own opinion about every verse.

That's the ultimate loss of fellowship. The prodigal son fell away from his father. He was still the son, and the father remained the father.

Is the relationship of salvation no different than "fellowship"?

The phrase "make our home with him" seems clear to be a reference to living in harmony with someone. Which is fellowship.

Le'ts consider a physical analogy; parent and child. The child has "taken up residence" with his parents. While that relationship is genetically permanent, is there always fellowship between parent and child, just because the child has "taken up residence" in the home?
I've asked this a number of times, but none who believe salvation can be lost have addressed this with an answer.

The Son is IN everyone who has believed. The Holy Spirit is also described as the "Spirit of Christ" in Rom 8:9 and 1 Pet 1:11. This is a permanent sealing, per Eph 1:13,14.

Please provide any verse that says that any believer can be unsealed from the Holy Spirit.
That's the only way your views can have any credibility."

The mistake here is to equate being "at home" with "dwelling". They are not the same. To be "at home" indicates a level of comfort, beyond just being there. That's the difference that must be understood in order to rightly divide the word of truth.

It says, 'we will come to him and make our home with him.' It means both the Father and the Son will take up residence and live with him in his house. Didn't Jesus say the Spirit of truth would dwell in us?
John 14:17
even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

The dwelling place is established by God Himself, not by our "keeping His word". The sealing with the Holy Spirit proves that. We are sealed from "having believed", meaning a single occurrence of belief. Not obedience, not endurance, etc.

That's what you say, but Jesus said, "he who loves me will keep my word."

Consider Prov 21:9 It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman in a wide house.
This verse is repeated in Prov 25:24.

Note the issue is dwelling, and compares dwelling (living) alone in a small space (in a corner of the housetop) than "with a brawling woman" in a wide place.

This shows dwelling without fellowship. To dwell means to live. And as a result of believing in Christ, His Spirit lives within us. But this is NOT fellowship. We are COMMANDED TO have fellowship with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 1:9 God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful. This is an invitation ("called you").
2 Cor 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Phil 2:1 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion
Phil 3:10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death
1 John 1:3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1 John 1:6-7
6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

So, to be "at home" is way more than simply living in a certain place (dwell); it means to dwell in fellowship.

Can a person be have fellowship with a "brawling woman"? Clearly not.

I said it's more than fellowship. A dwelling is defined as a house or a place of residence. Of course we have fellowship with the Father and the Son. That's because they reside in us.

 

[Kidron]

ALL sin will be forgiven except that sin that denies Christ and the work He does in a person by the power of the Holy Spirit.

-
Is there a difference, in God's point of view, between a person who denies Christ and a person who denies the finished work of Christ?

Let me ask it like this.....If you blaspheme Jesus The Christ by denying his finished work, then is this the unpardonable sin of blaspheming Him?

So, if the finished work of Jesus, is to eternally redeem all who Trust by Faith, (In HIM), then is the sin of denying Jesus's redemption as "finished", the same as denying OSAS (in public or on a Forum)?
Isn't it blaspheming the Holy Spirit to deny the work of Jesus on a cross as an "eternal redemption", by saying in public or on a public Forum, that this work is not eternal, but is instead conditional?
Is not the "Free Gift of Salvation", being blasphemed in public when someone says on a Public Forum that its not free, its not eternal, and that its a conditional redemptive work that is based on our "works" and our "enduring"?

Some of you here might want to consider that for a little while before you pounce on it with a few favorite twisted verses.



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