Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[FreeGrace]

What's not there or anywhere at all is OSAS.

Claims, claims, claims.

Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28. There is NO CONDITION beyond receiving eternal life for never perishing. Why is that always being missed?

Paul described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and then he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:28.

Then Paul wrote that those who have believed are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance for the day of redemption in Eph 1:13,14.

And finally, Peter wrote that we have been born again of imperishable seed. That means we can't perish, just as Jesus said.

4 passages that are quite clear about eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

Actually it continues to vs. 11:32 and vs. 28 and vs. 29 are connected by the word 'for' as in 'because' the gifts and the call of God were promised to Abraham and his descendants and God's word can not be undone.

Just hat are these gifts of God that were promised to Abe and his descendants? No one can tell me what they are. Certainly not from the context.

This is specific to Abraham and his descendants.

This must be the position for OSNAS in order to dissociate 6:23 from 11:29, because they are directly linked by the fact that the subject of both verses are about the gifts of God.

What does he mean by the gifts and the call of God can not be undone as far as they are concerned? It means God will show them mercy provided they show mercy. Romans 11:30-32

Not even close. Why have no Greek scholars translated the word "undone"? Because they know what the word means.

The fact remains that God's gifts are irrevocable and eternal life is one of God's gifts. Eternal security.

 

[MarkT]

If he ever had the Son, he cannot lose the Son. Because the Son promises this: 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. John 10

iow, Jesus holds those who have believed in Him. They may turn their back, but they are still in His hand. There is no escape. They aren't strong enough.

But OSNAS thinks man is strong enough to separate himself from Christ. But the Bible doesn't teach that, but the opposite.


He is speaking of those who never believed. Those who believed have the Son. Jesus said so.

That's what you say. But according to the teaching, if a man loves me, he will keep my word.' Obviously if a man doesn't love the Lord, he will not keep his word. So the Son and the Father will not make their home in him. Those who have the Son keep his word. Those who do not keep his word do not have the Son, and those who do not have the Son do not have life.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life.

 

[Nathan]

The fact remains that God's gifts are irrevocable and eternal life is one of God's gifts. Eternal security.

How come you most often leave out "in Christ" when talking about the eternal life God gives?

1 John 5:11 (ESV)
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

 

[gr8grace3]

(staff removed the post that was quoted here.)
It is quite the opposite. Ignore the clear and unambiguous verses about eternal security..........we ignore pretty much everything else that is being taught in His word. The whole bible and His mind has no application for our daily lives and how we deal with the problems of this world........if LIVING is all about gaining eternal life.

We simply believe to gain eternal life. Acts 16:31.

We work at winning the race set before us the moment we believe.

Philippians 2 :16~~New American Standard Bible
holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.

Who is holding fast the word of life who says says LIFE can be lost for someone who is saved?

There is not ONE person who is holding fast the word life that tells a believer that salvation can be lost. They are holding fast to logical human reason. It sounds totally reasonable and that is how is we operate in this world.

But His unreasonable(to us) Grace.........saves the worst of sinners if they TRUST Him in a moment of time. It's His plan. We would certainly not come up with something so unconceivable. We would require work. A change in lifestyle. A sign. a better person.........some indication that they changed to what we required of them.

The Lord Jesus Christ just asks us to TRUST in His work for salvation.

Humans and religion are going to REQUIRE a change that fits their religion.

 

[Mike]

Eh em...

But OSNAS does not believe His words.

I have tried every tactful, private way I can think of besides riding thru the room on a unicycle juggling bowling balls and lit torches while explaining that disengenuous statements like this are not acceptable. So my only recourse is to repeat myself in the public forum.

Whether we are a supporter of OSAS or of OSNAS, it is Bush league to make the claim that So & So doesn't believe scripture. Please reach deep inside yourself and find the possibility that because someone disagrees with you, they have a different interpretation. They disagree with your interpretation; not the Word of God. FreeGrace, you are a highly skilled debtor with a wealth of scriptural knowledge. Please don't degrade to this.

One of your camps is correct, but neither has sealed the deal with finality. You may even believe you have, but you have not. Scripture after scripture after scripture has been offered to support OSNAS, but they are dismissed and your claim of no one having scriptural support for OSNAS rages on.

I'm reminded of the Black Night in Monte Python and the Holy Grail. All four of his limbs cut off, and the black night refused to acknowledge it. (just a little levity ).

If you want to talk about this more, with me, start another thread. I am not going to go into here as it

True also. Please start a nihilism thread if you want to continue down this road.

 

[Corn Pop]

Some believe Adam and Eve were seperated from God when they sinned, so that would mean satan has been everyones God ever since the fall and when they were banished from the garden.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
" Because the Son promises this: 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. John 10

iow, Jesus holds those who have believed in Him. They may turn their back, but they are still in His hand. There is no escape. They aren't strong enough."

That's what you say.

I quoted Jesus' words from John 10:28. Does that verse say something different or contrary to what I have posted?

But according to the teaching, if a man loves me, he will keep my word.' Obviously if a man doesn't love the Lord, he will not keep his word.

This teaching is not about how to receive eternal life.

So the Son and the Father will not make their home in him.

Correct. This refers to having fellowship with the Father and Son.

Those who have the Son keep his word.

No, they are commanded to keep His word. It isn't automatic.

Those who do not keep his word do not have the Son, and those who do not have the Son do not have life.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life.

I don't see anything in this verse about "keeping His word" as any requirement for having the Son.

So, let's examine the very next verse in 1 John 5:
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The criteria for having eternal life is based on believing in the Son of God.

Those who believe are commanded to keep His word.

Those who keep His word show that they love Him.

Those who don't keep His word have no fellowship with Him and will be disciplined for it. Heb 12.

 

[FreeGrace]

How come you most often leave out "in Christ" when talking about the eternal life God gives?

I expect all who claim to be Christians KNOW that only believers, who are sealed IN HIM receive eternal life. My time is limited which is why I don't generally quote entire verses. But leaving "in Christ" out doesn't change anything.

1 John 5:11 (ESV)
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Of course.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God's grace was given us to believe and overcome sin.

And here is an example of OSNAS's flawed view. It doesn't even know what God's grace is for. But the Bible tells us in plain language:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— Eph 2

No flawed view. Here's the passage I was referring to...

11For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good." (Titus 2:11-14 NASB)

So we can plainly see that the non-OSAS view of grace is not flawed at all. It's what Paul himself says about grace. Grace was given us to set us free from sin, not make it so we can live in it and still be saved. Keeping your sinful lifestyle and still having Christ is the Hyper-grace pipe dream. It is the greatest of all false, ear tickling doctrines.

God's grace was given us to believe and overcome sin. Grace is not a license for a person to languish in sin and unbelief and still have Christ. That is a lie. Paul said grace teaches us to say 'no' to ungodliness. But Hyper-grace says it's a license to say 'yes' to unbelief and sin and still have eternal life. It's the mother of all ear tickling doctrines.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's the real motivation for OSNAS. They just can't stand the thought that someone is going to "get away" with sin. Meaning, get into heaven. But that simply demonstrates a flawed view of God's grace.

Actually, the motivation is that unbelievers and their doctrines are destroying the church.
It should be no surprise that even in this present time unbelievers are infiltrating the body of believers and causing them to stumble, and at the very least making the body weak and powerless. That's why I resist Hyper-grace doctrine.

 

[Nathan]

I expect all who claim to be Christians KNOW that only believers, who are sealed IN HIM receive eternal life. My time is limited which is why I don't generally quote entire verses. But leaving "in Christ" out doesn't change anything.


Of course.

I see. I understand the limited time thing. Happens to us all. We all could leave out a lot of things and it would not change anything. The problem with that is when we leave things out, then others reading what we write, may believe something that is not true.

I think our focus should be Christ, and the eternal life that is in Him. Not something we did at some point in our life which may be what we think is what gives us eternal life.

 

[MarkT]

I said this:
" Because the Son promises this: 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. John 10

iow, Jesus holds those who have believed in Him. They may turn their back, but they are still in His hand. There is no escape. They aren't strong enough."

I quoted Jesus' words from John 10:28. Does that verse say something different or contrary to what I have posted?


This teaching is not about how to receive eternal life.


Correct. This refers to having fellowship with the Father and Son.


No, they are commanded to keep His word. It isn't automatic.


I don't see anything in this verse about "keeping His word" as any requirement for having the Son.

So, let's examine the very next verse in 1 John 5:
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The criteria for having eternal life is based on believing in the Son of God.

Those who believe are commanded to keep His word.

Those who keep His word show that they love Him.

Those who don't keep His word have no fellowship with Him and will be disciplined for it. Heb 12.

If a man doesn't keep his word, then he has not the Son. John 14:23
He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life. 1 John 5:12

So if a man rejects the word of the Son of God, then how can you say he has life?

 

[FreeGrace]

If a man doesn't keep his word, then he has not the Son. John 14:23
He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life. 1 John 5:12

So if a man rejects the word of the Son of God, then how can you say he has life?

By understanding the meaning of the verses.

First, John 14:23 doesn't say what you've claimed here. This is what the verse says:
Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

This isn't about salvation. It's about fellowship. So your view abuses that verse.

1 John 5:12 is about those who have believed in the Son (they have Him) and those who never believed in the Son (they never had Him).

To force OSNAS into that verse is another abuse of Scripture.

The sticking point for OSNAS is the idea that one who is saved and later rejects Him (the worst thing imagined) cannot be saved.

But such a view means that one's power of choice changes all that God does for the person who has believed. That makes the person MORE POWERFUL than God's power of salvation.

Plus, that isn't taught anywhere in Scripture.

 

[MarkT]

By understanding the meaning of the verses.

First, John 14:23 doesn't say what you've claimed here. This is what the verse says:
Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

This isn't about salvation. It's about fellowship. So your view abuses that verse.

1 John 5:12 is about those who have believed in the Son (they have Him) and those who never believed in the Son (they never had Him).

To force OSNAS into that verse is another abuse of Scripture.

The sticking point for OSNAS is the idea that one who is saved and later rejects Him (the worst thing imagined) cannot be saved.

But such a view means that one's power of choice changes all that God does for the person who has believed. That makes the person MORE POWERFUL than God's power of salvation.

Plus, that isn't taught anywhere in Scripture.

Jesus said, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. John 14:23

God is spirit John 4:24, so if he is at home with us he is within ie. within the physical body (also within that which is born of the Spirt, the spiritual body) we are in. The Father and the Son will enter into the man and make their home with him.

According to the dictionary fellowship means a friendly association. John is saying a lot more than fellowship.

That's what having the Son means; he is within the man; Same as possessing the Spirit; it is within. To have is to possess.

This is saying a lot more than just believed in the Son. The teaching is true,
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life.

 

[Nathan]

The sticking point for OSNAS is the idea that one who is saved and later rejects Him (the worst thing imagined) cannot be saved.

But such a view means that one's power of choice changes all that God does for the person who has believed. That makes the person MORE POWERFUL than God's power of salvation.

Actually, denying Christ does not change what God does for the person - it just denies it. This does not make the person any more powerful than they were to begin with. There is zero 'power' difference between acceptance and denial.

We know that God gives people the ability to choose Him, or to reject Him. There is not one single passage you will find that says once you choose God, He will take away the ability to reject Him. Not one passage.

On the other hand, we find multiple passages that show people rejecting Him after choosing Him, and even more that warn against doing such.

Heb 3:12-15
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

As it is said,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

 

[chessman]

There is not one single passage you will find that says once you choose God, He will take away the ability to reject Him. Not one passage.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. ​

On the otherhand, A Hebrew with an evil/unbelieving heart leads them to ______?

Heb 3:12-15
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Some Hebrew brothers had evil/unbelieving hearts. On the otherhand some had been given "new hearts" and were thus called, "Holy brothers", those who had actually confessed Jesus as their High Priest, that is.

Hebrews 3:1 (ESV) Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, ​

Humm, if indeed all Hebrew brothers were holy brothers, they'd have shared in Christ.

For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

Romans 11:28-29, 36 (ESV) As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.​

 

[Nathan]

Ezekiel 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. ​

On the otherhand, A Hebrew with an evil/unbelieving heart leads them to ______?



Some Hebrew brothers had evil/unbelieving hearts. On the otherhand some had been given "new hearts" and were thus called, "Holy brothers", those who had actually confessed Jesus as their High Priest, that is.

Hebrews 3:1 (ESV) Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, ​

Humm, if indeed all Hebrew brothers were holy brothers, they'd have shared in Christ.

Romans 11:28-29, 36 (ESV) As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.​

I am not sure how Ezekiel 36 speaks of a believer being unable to reject Christ? If that is what you meant by quoting my post and then posting that Scripture under it. Maybe that's not what you meant to say.

I'm glad you posted that passage in Romans 11. It really does help to understand the whole rejection thing. See, before Paul stated that passage about the calling being irrevocable, he made this statement;

Rom 11:21
For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

See, God's calling is still there(irrevocable) if they turn from their unbelief. His offer still stands(irrevocable) to the ones who have fallen.

We should stay in that kindness so we will not be cut off like they were.

 

[Nathan]

I guess it was as common back in those days for Gentiles to 'boast' about their position in Christ, as it is in the times we live now.

Rom 11:17-22
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus said, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. John 14:23

Which is why I said this verse is about fellowship. To "make our home with him" isn't about saving him, but having fellowship with him.

God is spirit John 4:24, so if he is at home with us he is within ie. within the physical body (also within that which is born of the Spirt, the spiritual body) we are in. The Father and the Son will enter into the man and make their home with him.

The Holy Spirit is given to all who believe, which is God's seal on His own possession and a guarantee for the day of redemption.

According to the dictionary fellowship means a friendly association. John is saying a lot more than fellowship.

Not in John 14:23.