Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[FreeGrace]

Actually, denying Christ does not change what God does for the person - it just denies it.

Exactly right! Denying what God has done for the person does not undo what God has done, which is in conflict with the claim that salvation can be lost.

This does not make the person any more powerful than they were to begin with.

To claim loss of salvation MUST ALSO INCLUDE undoing everything that comes with salvation:
1. indwelling of the Holy Spirit. But the Bible teaches that the believer is sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13
2. justification, which is a gift (Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17) and is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).
3. possession of eternal life (John 5:24) and is another one of God's gifts that is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).
4. we become the children of God (1 Jn 3:1,2, 5:19).

The Bible never says anything about any of these being undone.

There is zero 'power' difference between acceptance and denial.

That's not the issue. The claim that one can lose salvation by what they do indicates that they have "overridden" what God did for them.

Or, iow, they have trumped God. Which I reject.

We know that God gives people the ability to choose Him, or to reject Him. There is not one single passage you will find that says once you choose God, He will take away the ability to reject Him. Not one passage.

That's not my argument. I know a believer can reject God or Christ later on. We have examples; Luke 8:13 in Jesus' own words, and a more recent example is the evangelist who mentored Billy Graham, Charles Templeton, who became an atheist.

On the other hand, we find multiple passages that show people rejecting Him after choosing Him, and even more that warn against doing such.

Correct. And of course the Bible would warn against that. Because of the dire consequences, including eternal consequences.

In one's lifetime, they will face God's discipline, which is painful (Heb 12:11), and includes weakness and sickness, and even physical death (1 Cor 11:30). In eternity, reward will be lost. 2 Jn 8

 

[Nathan]

Exactly right! Denying what God has done for the person does not undo what God has done, which is in conflict with the claim that salvation can be lost.


To claim loss of salvation MUST ALSO INCLUDE undoing everything that comes with salvation:
1. indwelling of the Holy Spirit. But the Bible teaches that the believer is sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13
2. justification, which is a gift (Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17) and is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).
3. possession of eternal life (John 5:24) and is another one of God's gifts that is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).
4. we become the children of God (1 Jn 3:1,2, 5:19).

The Bible never says anything about any of these being undone.


That's not the issue. The claim that one can lose salvation by what they do indicates that they have "overridden" what God did for them.

Or, iow, they have trumped God. Which I reject.


That's not my argument. I know a believer can reject God or Christ later on. We have examples; Luke 8:13 in Jesus' own words, and a more recent example is the evangelist who mentored Billy Graham, Charles Templeton, who became an atheist.


Correct. And of course the Bible would warn against that. Because of the dire consequences, including eternal consequences.

In one's lifetime, they will face God's discipline, which is painful (Heb 12:11), and includes weakness and sickness, and even physical death (1 Cor 11:30). In eternity, reward will be lost. 2 Jn 8

You seem to still not understand that salvation is Jesus Christ. Its not a "thing", salvation is Him. Of course we cannot 'lose' Him. But we can deny Him - which is to deny salvation.

Luk 2:25
Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. And he came in the Spirit into the temple, and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the Law, he took him up in his arms and blessed God and said,

“Lord, now you are letting your servant depart in peace,
according to your word;
for my eyes have seen your salvation
that you have prepared in the presence of all peoples,
a light for revelation to the Gentiles,
and for glory to your people Israel.

The Spirit of God is the life of Christ in the believer. If the Spirit of God is not in a believer, then the believer does not belong to God.

Rom 8:9
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Everything God does is through His Spirit. Its not a matter of being "undone", its a matter of not being present. If the Spirit of God is not in a believer, then the things of God are not their either.

You keep bringing up the idea that to not have Christ is to just somehow miss out on a 'reward', as in something earned? You cannot just pull one verse from the context it is written and make a complete doctrine from it.

2Jo 1:4-9
I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as we were commanded by the Father. And now I ask you, dear lady—not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it. For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

This reward is nothing other than our eternal life in Christ. If you do not abide in Christ, you do not have God. If you do not have God, then you do not have life.

1Jo 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Your reward, that you will receive in heaven, is the crown of life.

Jas 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

Rev 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Heb 10:32-39
But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one. Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.

For,
“Yet a little while,
and the coming one will come and will not delay;
but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him.”

But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

The one who shrinks back, who turns away from Christ, who denies Him - they are the ones who will be destroyed. We, on the other hand, who endure, who have faith, will have our souls preserved and will receive the promise - eternal life.

 

[PeterJens]

By understanding the meaning of the verses.

First, John 14:23 doesn't say what you've claimed here. This is what the verse says:
Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

This isn't about salvation. It's about fellowship. So your view abuses that verse.

1 John 5:12 is about those who have believed in the Son (they have Him) and those who never believed in the Son (they never had Him).

To force OSNAS into that verse is another abuse of Scripture.

The sticking point for OSNAS is the idea that one who is saved and later rejects Him (the worst thing imagined) cannot be saved.

But such a view means that one's power of choice changes all that God does for the person who has believed. That makes the person MORE POWERFUL than God's power of salvation.

Plus, that isn't taught anywhere in Scripture.

I have seen the argument if people can loose salvation after gaining faith, is that not making mans choice
more powerful than Gods authority?

And the answer is no, because God himself has given us the choice.
The parable of the prodigal son is the son is free to leave.
All of Jesus's parables, peoples responses are theirs freely given and taken.

To walk in love is to know this freedom. God is calling us to be His people who
are like Him. To be like Him you have to love Him with all that you are, to become
one with Him in thought word and deed. This is not possible if you choose to leave,
because this very act testifies to ones choice and ones heart.

To know Gods heart and His objective is to know what salvation means.
Innate within it all, is the ability to love and choose freely how to express this.
Our King chose death to give us life. Are we going to choose death so that
then he will force us to accept life, when that denies the very nature of salvation
and love itself? To those who doubt Jesus's words and heart spend time at the
foot of the cross, and wonder what drove Him there. This is the key to all that
follows.

 

[Jim Parker]

I have seen the argument if people can loose salvation after gaining faith, is that not making mans choice
more powerful than Gods authority?
And the answer is no, because God himself has given us the choice.

Thank you.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have seen the argument if people can loose salvation after gaining faith, is that not making mans choice
more powerful than Gods authority?

And the answer is no, because God himself has given us the choice.
The parable of the prodigal son is the son is free to leave.
All of Jesus's parables, peoples responses are theirs freely given and taken.

To walk in love is to know this freedom. God is calling us to be His people who
are like Him. To be like Him you have to love Him with all that you are, to become
one with Him in thought word and deed. This is not possible if you choose to leave,
because this very act testifies to ones choice and ones heart.

To know Gods heart and His objective is to know what salvation means.
Innate within it all, is the ability to love and choose freely how to express this.
Our King chose death to give us life. Are we going to choose death so that
then he will force us to accept life, when that denies the very nature of salvation
and love itself? To those who doubt Jesus's words and heart spend time at the
foot of the cross, and wonder what drove Him there. This is the key to all that
follows.

Hi PJ

Very nice post.
Beautiful words.
It is very difficult to leave God's love.
John 6:68 comes to mind. Of course this does not mean that it is impossible.

I'm most happy to know that it is a free will choice of mine to remain with our Lord
because I'll never have to hear the words "you were never saved to begin with".

I know that I am a child of God because it is my free will choice to be so and to remain close to Him.

Welcome to the forum.
I believe you'll enjoy your time here.

 

[PeterJens]

Hi PJ

Very nice post.
Beautiful words.
It is very difficult to leave God's love.
John 6:68 comes to mind. Of course this does not mean that it is impossible.

I'm most happy to know that it is a free will choice of mine to remain with our Lord
because I'll never have to hear the words "you were never saved to begin with".

I know that I am a child of God because it is my free will choice to be so and to remain close to Him.

Welcome to the forum.
I believe you'll enjoy your time here.

Thankyou wondering.

I have to say, what I wrote yesterday is actually quite stunning. I will have to take it in for a while.
Choice. What has impressed me in my life, is Jesus chose me, because He knew I would love Him.
I look at Paul with his rediculous passion for God which drove him to persecute the church but with
a good heart, miss-directed. So God confronts him, and shows him who He is. And Pauls world is
turned upside down. He wanted righteousness and purity with a passion. And only in Jesus did he
find this.
The tension between our walk and our faith, our revelation of love and intimacy, to care for people
at a deep level, is not easy. I too often do not care enough, and am not sufficiently sensitive to the
impact of my words. If our walk does not reflect our communion with our Lord, do we really know Him?

I am fascinated by peoples desire to find security in doctrines and not in communion with the Lord, or
learning to love and be a vessel of Gods gifts to others. It is like beliefs secure ones place and not
the Holy Spirit working in and through ones life.

In the kingdom of heaven, how would people who knew all the theory but none of the outworking be
of any use. Sinners are failed flawed people who continually get it wrong. How has belief made any
difference to them, or God would regard it with any significance.

 

[MarkT]

Which is why I said this verse is about fellowship. To "make our home with him" isn't about saving him, but having fellowship with him.


The Holy Spirit is given to all who believe, which is God's seal on His own possession and a guarantee for the day of redemption.


Not in John 14:23.

Fellowship isn't even implied. If a man falls away, will the man lose fellowship? Fellowship is defined as a friendly association; ie. to be a part of a community; the state of being a fellow or an associate. You say it's about fellowship. I say it's about a lot more than fellowship.

The teaching is,
John 14:23
Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

This will happen if a man loves the Son. If a man loves the Son he will keep his word, and the Father will love him, and both the Son and the Father will make their home with him. They will make their home with the man means they will take up residence with him. And this residence/home is within.

Those who do not keep his word do not have the Son. The Son isn't in them. He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life. 1 John 5:12 It's a fact. He has not life.

 

[MarkT]

I have seen the argument if people can loose salvation after gaining faith, is that not making mans choice
more powerful than Gods authority?

And the answer is no, because God himself has given us the choice.
The parable of the prodigal son is the son is free to leave.
All of Jesus's parables, peoples responses are theirs freely given and taken.

To walk in love is to know this freedom. God is calling us to be His people who
are like Him. To be like Him you have to love Him with all that you are, to become
one with Him in thought word and deed. This is not possible if you choose to leave,
because this very act testifies to ones choice and ones heart.

To know Gods heart and His objective is to know what salvation means.
Innate within it all, is the ability to love and choose freely how to express this.
Our King chose death to give us life. Are we going to choose death so that
then he will force us to accept life, when that denies the very nature of salvation
and love itself? To those who doubt Jesus's words and heart spend time at the
foot of the cross, and wonder what drove Him there. This is the key to all that
follows.

Nobody falls by choice. They fall because they do not understand. They fall because God cuts them down; like a tree falls not by choice but because it is cut down.
Matthew 3:10
Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 7:19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

 

[FreeGrace]

You seem to still not understand that salvation is Jesus Christ.

Of course salvation is in Jesus Christ.

Its not a "thing", salvation is Him.

Salvation is in Him.

Of course we cannot 'lose' Him. But we can deny Him - which is to deny salvation.

This is an opinion which is not supported from Scripture.

Because all who have believed (aorist tense) are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13), God cannot deny Himself (2 Tim 2:12b).

The Spirit of God is the life of Christ in the believer. If the Spirit of God is not in a believer, then the believer does not belong to God.

Exactly !! Which is why no one who has received the gift of eternal life and the indwelling Holy Spirit will ever perish. That is impossible

You keep bringing up the idea that to not have Christ is to just somehow miss out on a 'reward', as in something earned?

This is a misunderstanding of what I've posted. To "have Christ" is equal to believing in Him. And one who "has Christ", even if he later denies Him, still has Him. Why? Because, "having believed", one is sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit. That seal cannot be broken, or the Bible would have specifically said so.

You cannot just pull one verse from the context it is written and make a complete doctrine from it.

Hardly. The word "reward" occurs between 22-36 times in various translations.

How many times must a word occur in the Bible before it is taken seriously??

This reward is nothing other than our eternal life in Christ.

I am quite aware that those who believe in loss of salvation do not accept that rewards are earned for behavior.

If you do not abide in Christ, you do not have God.

No, you do not have fellowship with God. Another word that those who believe in loss of salvation do not accept.
1 John 1 count how many times the word fellowship occurs in that chapter.

If you do not have God, then you do not have life.

Since we are held in God's hand, those who have EVER been "in His hand" cannot be removed. John 10:29

No one is stronger than God.

Your reward, that you will receive in heaven, is the crown of life.

That's one of several specific rewards for service.

For,
“Yet a little while,
and the coming one will come and will not delay;
but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him.”

It should be obvious that if salvation could be lost, the end of this verse would have been a perfect place to make the point. But no point was made.

The one who shrinks back, who turns away from Christ, who denies Him - they are the ones who will be destroyed.

The key is to properly understand what "destroy" means in any verse where it occurs. There is no need to automatically assume it means "go to hell".

We, on the other hand, who endure, who have faith, will have our souls preserved and will receive the promise - eternal life.

This is a direct statement that one must "endure" to receive eternal life. Which is in direct conflict with what Jesus said about receiving eternal life:
John 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 11:25-26

 

[FreeGrace]

I have seen the argument if people can loose salvation after gaining faith, is that not making mans choice
more powerful than Gods authority?

Of course.

And the answer is no, because God himself has given us the choice.
The parable of the prodigal son is the son is free to leave.
All of Jesus's parables, peoples responses are theirs freely given and taken.

The problem is that one who has believed IS SEALED IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, a deposit or guarantee for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

And, eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23
And, the gifts of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29
Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

Fellowship isn't even implied.

Each person has their own opinion about every verse.

If a man falls away, will the man lose fellowship?

That's the ultimate loss of fellowship. The prodigal son fell away from his father. He was still the son, and the father remained the father.

Fellowship is defined as a friendly association; ie. to be a part of a community; the state of being a fellow or an associate. You say it's about fellowship. I say it's about a lot more than fellowship.

Is the relationship of salvation no different than "fellowship"?

The teaching is,
John 14:23
Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

The phrase "make our home with him" seems clear to be a reference to living in harmony with someone. Which is fellowship.

This will happen if a man loves the Son. If a man loves the Son he will keep his word, and the Father will love him, and both the Son and the Father will make their home with him. They will make their home with the man means they will take up residence with him. And this residence/home is within.

Le'ts consider a physical analogy; parent and child. The child has "taken up residence" with his parents. While that relationship is genetically permanent, is there always fellowship between parent and child, just because the child has "taken up residence" in the home?
I've asked this a number of times, but none who believe salvation can be lost have addressed this with an answer.

Those who do not keep his word do not have the Son. The Son isn't in them.

The Son is IN everyone who has believed. The Holy Spirit is also described as the "Spirit of Christ" in Rom 8:9 and 1 Pet 1:11. This is a permanent sealing, per Eph 1:13,14.

He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life. 1 John 5:12 It's a fact. He has not life.

Please provide any verse that says that any believer can be unsealed from the Holy Spirit.

That's the only way your views can have any credibility.

 

[WIP]

That's the ultimate loss of fellowship. The prodigal son fell away from his father. He was still the son, and the father remained the father.

You've used this illustration before with regard to the prodigal son and from that I assume (I know, shouldn't assume) that it is your position that having that relationship means being a son one is always saved. Can you point to the Scripture that supports this? Some translations render the story as the son was dead when he fell away from the father but then when he returned was alive again. Since it describes the son as dead, ergo not alive, then doesn't that also express how one, even though he is an adoptive son could later die spiritually by falling away? Yes, still a son but no longer alive?

 

[FreeGrace]

You've used this illustration before with regard to the prodigal son and from that I assume (I know, shouldn't assume) that it is your position that having that relationship means being a son one is always saved.

Correct. The parent-child relationship is permanent physically and cannot be undone. I have seen no evidence from Scripture that the child of God can ever be in danger of being separated from the Father.

And there is Scripture that speaks of our spiritual DNA, so to speak.
1 Peter 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

This is speaking of our spiritual birth (born again) or regeneration. And this spiritual birth is said to be "of imperishable seed". That refers to God Himself. And God puts Himself (Holy Spirit) within the believer, sealing him/her IN HIM for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

This verse parallels exactly what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life; they will never perish. John 10:28

Can you point to the Scripture that supports this?

1 Pet 1:23

Some translations render the story as the son was dead when he fell away from the father but then when he returned was alive again. Since it describes the son as dead, ergo not alive, then doesn't that also express how one, even though he is an adoptive son could later die spiritually by falling away? Yes, still a son but no longer alive?

I understand "death" in that parable as death of fellowship. Not loss of eternal life, or one does lose eternal life by sinful living. Yet Jesus noted that to "never perish" is based on receiving eternal life, not how one lives their life.

I learned some years ago that to the Jews of the 1st Century, that parable would be understood as a son insinuating that he wished his father was dead by even asking for his share of the inheritance. That sure gave me greater insight into the parable. To ask for one's inheritance before the father died was tantamount to saying to the father "I wish you were dead, but since you aren't, just give me my cut". This seems to clearly show loss of fellowship between father and son, given that.

So, what died was fellowship. Which stays within the earthly story but showing a heavenly principle. And the son did return in fellowship with the father. At which time the older son broke fellowship with his father.

 

[Nathan]

Of course salvation is in Jesus Christ.


Salvation is in Him.


This is an opinion which is not supported from Scripture.

Because all who have believed (aorist tense) are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13), God cannot deny Himself (2 Tim 2:12b).


Exactly !! Which is why no one who has received the gift of eternal life and the indwelling Holy Spirit will ever perish. That is impossible


This is a misunderstanding of what I've posted. To "have Christ" is equal to believing in Him. And one who "has Christ", even if he later denies Him, still has Him. Why? Because, "having believed", one is sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit. That seal cannot be broken, or the Bible would have specifically said so.


Hardly. The word "reward" occurs between 22-36 times in various translations.

How many times must a word occur in the Bible before it is taken seriously??


I am quite aware that those who believe in loss of salvation do not accept that rewards are earned for behavior.


No, you do not have fellowship with God. Another word that those who believe in loss of salvation do not accept.
1 John 1 count how many times the word fellowship occurs in that chapter.


Since we are held in God's hand, those who have EVER been "in His hand" cannot be removed. John 10:29

No one is stronger than God.


That's one of several specific rewards for service.


It should be obvious that if salvation could be lost, the end of this verse would have been a perfect place to make the point. But no point was made.


The key is to properly understand what "destroy" means in any verse where it occurs. There is no need to automatically assume it means "go to hell".


This is a direct statement that one must "endure" to receive eternal life. Which is in direct conflict with what Jesus said about receiving eternal life:
John 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 11:25-26

Yea, I think you still miss the point. Jesus is salvation, it is in Jesus we have salvation, but He is Salvation - and cannot apart from Him. You seem to think its something we get and stick in our pockets.

I am not sure how you think that it could be opinion that if we deny Him we deny Salvation. If you are in Christ, then no, you cannot deny salvation - if you are not in Christ, then you can deny salvation. If you are in Christ, and only those in Christ, are sealed. No one is sealed that is not in Christ. Do you have a passage that states someone can be sealed if they are not in Christ? I didn't think so.

Where do you ever find a believer is destroyed? You wont find it. It does not happen. A person in Christ cannot be destroyed, because they are in Christ. If a person is not in Christ, then they will be destroyed.

Yes, a person must endure to receive eternal life. If you do not have to endure, I would like to see your proof that you do not have to. I have yet to see you show any passages that state you do not have to endure. On the other hand;

2Ti 2:12
if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;

 

[Nathan]

Of course.


The problem is that one who has believed IS SEALED IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, a deposit or guarantee for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

And, eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23
And, the gifts of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29
Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable.

Actually, the one who believes(not "has believed" and no longer believes) is sealed in Him. When we believe, we are sealed, and those who no longer believe, or have never believed, will be destroyed.

Jde 1:5
Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

Did you ever know that Jesus saved the people out of Egypt?

 

[Nathan]

Correct. The parent-child relationship is permanent physically and cannot be undone. I have seen no evidence from Scripture that the child of God can ever be in danger of being separated from the Father.

Gal 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

1Jo 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

There, now you see it.

 

[Nathan]

I understand "death" in that parable as death of fellowship. Not loss of eternal life, or one does lose eternal life by sinful living. Yet Jesus noted that to "never perish" is based on receiving eternal life, not how one lives their life.

Gen 3:4-5
But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Even now the serpent says to the 'woman'(bride of Christ) - you shall not surely die .

Rom 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

1Jo 1:5-6
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

1Jo 2:4-6
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

 

[MarkT]

Each person has their own opinion about every verse.


That's the ultimate loss of fellowship. The prodigal son fell away from his father. He was still the son, and the father remained the father.


Is the relationship of salvation no different than "fellowship"?


The phrase "make our home with him" seems clear to be a reference to living in harmony with someone. Which is fellowship.


Le'ts consider a physical analogy; parent and child. The child has "taken up residence" with his parents. While that relationship is genetically permanent, is there always fellowship between parent and child, just because the child has "taken up residence" in the home?
I've asked this a number of times, but none who believe salvation can be lost have addressed this with an answer.


The Son is IN everyone who has believed. The Holy Spirit is also described as the "Spirit of Christ" in Rom 8:9 and 1 Pet 1:11. This is a permanent sealing, per Eph 1:13,14.


Please provide any verse that says that any believer can be unsealed from the Holy Spirit.

That's the only way your views can have any credibility.

It's not about fellowship.

We are at home in the body. So when Jesus said the Father and the Son would make their home with him, he is saying within the body wherein the man dwells.

So if a man loves him, he will keep his word and he will become a dwelling place for the Son and the Father; He will become God's temple, God's dwelling place/home. Our home will become God's home.

1 Cor. 3:16 Paul said, "Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?

 

[FreeGrace]

Yea, I think you still miss the point. Jesus is salvation, it is in Jesus we have salvation, but He is Salvation - and cannot apart from Him. You seem to think its something we get and stick in our pockets.

I think the better statement is that salvation means God "sticks us in His hand" and never lets go. Which is John 10:29.

I am not sure how you think that it could be opinion that if we deny Him we deny Salvation.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify my statement.

It's an opinion because there are no verses that say so. That is why.

If you are in Christ, then no, you cannot deny salvation

And this is an opinion. Jesus was clear about people who have believed in Him but "for a while". Meaning, their faith at some point ceased. They no longer believed in Him. Which is equivalent to denying Him as Savior. So those who have believed, can deny Him.

But where are any Scriptures that in plain language say that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved.

- if you are not in Christ, then you can deny salvation.

No. For those who never believed in Christ, they are not in Christ. And they HAVE (not "can") denied Him. Either actively in rejection of His claims, or passively by lack of concern or interest.

If you are in Christ, and only those in Christ, are sealed.

Yes, this is absolutely true, and the foundation for our eternal security. Because there are no verses that speak of how this seal can be undone or un-sealed. And the seal is said to be a pledge (promise) towards God's own possession (the sealed believer) for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

No one is sealed that is not in Christ.

Yes sir!

Do you have a passage that states someone can be sealed if they are not in Christ? I didn't think so.

Of course not. As you've noted, no one is sealed who is not in Christ. And only those "having believed" (aorist - simple occurrence) are sealed, and for the day of redemption.

Where do you ever find a believer is destroyed? You wont find it. It does not happen.

Depends on how the word "destroyed" is meant. It can mean physical destruction (death), or eternal, depending on the context.

A person in Christ cannot be destroyed, because they are in Christ. If a person is not in Christ, then they will be destroyed.

Correct.

Yes, a person must endure to receive eternal life.

Nope. Jesus said to believe in Him for eternal life. John 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 11:25-26

If you do not have to endure, I would like to see your proof that you do not have to.

John 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 11:25-26

I have yet to see you show any passages that state you do not have to endure.

Well, that's a statement that cannot be said ever again.

On the other hand;

2Ti 2:12
if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Why would one equate "reign with Him" to mean "saved by Him"?? There is no reason. Reigning with Christ is on the basis of enduring. That's a reward.

So, to "deny Him" is the direct opposite of "enduring". So, the result of denying Him is the direct opposite of reigning with Him, meaning that we will be denied the privilege of reigning with Him.

Not every believer will reign with Him. Only the enduring ones.

 

[FreeGrace]

Actually, the one who believes(not "has believed" and no longer believes) is sealed in Him.

This is an attempt to CHANGE what the Bible has already SAID by this attempt to CHANGE the aorist tense (having believed) into a present tense "believes", which does not occur in the original Greek.
Eph 1:13 - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

This is significant. From a single occurrence of having believed, one IS sealed. v.14 says "for the day of redemption".

When we believe, we are sealed, and those who no longer believe, or have never believed, will be destroyed.

This is equivalent to saying that the seal is broken, undone, or un-sealed. Why doesn't the Bible say that?

Jde 1:5
Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

Did you ever know that Jesus saved the people out of Egypt?

Let's rightly divide the Word of Truth, as Paul encouraged Tim in 2 Tim 2:15. By "saving" the people out of Egypt, He delivered or rescued them from Egypt. And that's the core meaning of "sozo".

And it's clear that with the exception of Caleb and Joshua, the entire rest of the 1st generation of the Exodus died physically in the desert during the 40 year march for having rejected the minority report from C and J. Even Moses didn't enter the land, but for a different reason. He disobeyed God's command to speak to the rock and lost his ticket into the land.

So Jde 1:5 isn't about anything eternal at all. God did deliver His people from Egypt and later killed those who did not believe.

There is nothing about loss of eternal life at all in that verse.