Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[GodsGrace]

Yes. We'd have to agree on a Biblical definition of 'Real Presence', of course. But I most certainly believe that the broken bread Jesus gives, IS His body and should be recognized as such. I do not believe bread given by anyone other than Jesus Himself is His body, however.

Matthew 26:26-28 Now while they were eating Jesus took bread and, after giving thanks, he broke it, and giving it to the disciples, he said, “Take, eat, this is my body.” And after taking the cup and giving thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.​

On a side note, I do not believe anyone other than The Father gives out His Presence (His body).

Matthew 23:9 And do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your heavenly Father. ​

It is not my position that sons must be sin free in order to receive His bread. In fact, I know it is not required because His disciples receive forgiveness of sins after eating His bread (not before).

Matthew 26:27-28 And after taking the cup and giving thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.


​

Die, no. Get weak, yes.
I did not see Christ Jesus' body hang on the cross, but I believe it happened nonetheless.

Interesting.
A big denomination believes that RECEIVING the bread itself forgives sins.
Luther did not abandon his belief in the Real Presence after the reformation. (or AT the reformation).

Real presence would be more in line with co-substantiation. That in some way we could not understand, the body and blood of Christ are IN the bread and wine.

The other would be transubstantiation ...the bread and wine BECOMES the body and blood of Christ.
This is not considered to be a symbol, but a real change in the substance of the bread and wine.
In all of nature the FORM could change but not the substance. In transubstantiation the SUBSTANCE changes, but not the form.

I'm pretty much decided about everything in our faith, but I have a difficult time with this and am not 100% certain either way.

Re the not seeing the cross, I get your point and agree. Maybe it does make us weaker...

Thanks for the reply.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"It's both. Paul said so in plain language.
"for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable." Rom 11:29"

He is not saying there are two things that are irrevocable.

Gifts and His call. That is two things. Not one thing. I think just moving on at this point would be helpful. The plain language is there that tells us there are 2 things noted that are irrevocable.

He does say the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

Yes, they (plural) are. Now, let's just move on.

These things just happen to be related to the covenant God made with Israel.

This is immaterial to the fact that BOTH are irrevocable. And BOTH are available to BOTH Jew and Gentile.

Did Paul accidentally refer to the covenant? Or was it his intention to say the covenant can not be undone?

What does this have to do with the fact that BOTH God's call and God's gifts are irrevocable.

And Paul specifically described 3 of God's gifts before he got around to penning 11:29, and he did nothing to exclude any of them from 11:29. That means he INTENDED to include them in 11:29.

Now, let's just move on.

 

[FreeGrace]

What's more likely - that Paul is establishing a foundation to build a theology on? ie. OSAS Or is he just saying God's promise can not be revoked?

There is nothing that is "more likely". We have the plain language in front of us. Paul wasn't referring to promises in 11:29. He was speaking clearly about 2 things; God's call and God's gifts. Both of which are irrevocable. And Paul previously described 3 of God's gifts.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you (chessman) believe in the Real Presence?
I see many taking Communion who shouldn't be for things I know for sure that are being done.
I never saw anyone get sick over this or die.
Have you?

Got some questions:
What is meant by the "Real Presence"? Where does it come from?
Are you familiar with 1 Cor 11:30?

Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

Got some questions:
What is meant by the "Real Presence"? Where does it come from?
Are you familiar with 1 Cor 11:30?

Thanks.

FG

Real Presence is the concept present in many Protestant churches that believe that communion, the bread and blood of Christ is MORE than just a symbolic ritual to remember the sacrifice of Christ.

In some denominations it becomes a MEMORIAL. As it we were standing at the foot of the cross.
Sometimes it's said that Catholics sacrifice Jesus at every Mass, but this is not true. It's a memorial.
(I'm not Catholic)

Here is how I explained it to Chessman:

Luther did not abandon his belief in the Real Presence after the reformation. (or AT the reformation).

Real presence would be more in line with co-substantiation. That in some way we could not understand, the body and blood of Christ are IN the bread and wine.

The other would be transubstantiation ...the bread and wine BECOMES the body and blood of Christ.
This is not considered to be a symbol, but a real change in the substance of the bread and wine.
In all of nature the FORM could change but not the substance. In transubstantiation the SUBSTANCE changes, but not the form.

 

[GodsGrace]

Got some questions:
What is meant by the "Real Presence"? Where does it come from?
Are you familiar with 1 Cor 11:30?

Thanks.

Re 1 Corinthians 11:30...

It begins with verse 11:28.
We're not supposed to take communion if we have unforgiven sin. We should ask for forgiveness first. Some churches have a ritual for this.
Or, it could be private between us and God.

The idea is that if we receive communion with unforgiven sin we will become weak in body OR DIE. Sleep, means to die.
I've never seen this and I find this difficult to believe. Sick...maybe. Unforgiven sin that is on our conscience could make us weak, affecting our physical body.

verse 27 is also very interesting. Don't know if you care to discuss...

Is this off topic? No. Because some churches believe communion helps to keep us saved.
It could be considered a "work".

 

[chessman]

Am I correct in my understanding that, in communion, it is the blood which we receive that cleanses us from sin...

It is His blood which He poured out on the cross that cleanses us from sin.

Matthew 26:27-28 And after taking the cup and giving thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. ​

In Christian communion, we drink from the cup (which IS the new covenant in His poured out blood).

1 Corinthians 11:25-26 Likewise also the cup, after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.​

 

[GodsGrace]

#1297 Like & agree! ..."that the son was DEAD and has come to life again" ...that's very interesting, Sister. I've never really caught that in that way before. Good catch.

Chessman, (or whoever), I have one quick question and then will derail this no more, lol.

Am I correct in my understanding that, in communion, it is the blood which we receive that cleanses us from sin...and the body (flesh of my flesh, bone of my bones...) that we receive which imparts healing to us?

(by His stripes (on His body) we are healed)

Hi Edward,

The blood that washes us from our sin is the blood that Jesus shed on the cross.
Like in Exodus. The blood from a spotless Lamb.
Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

So when we receive communion we are remembering this.
Jesus said, Do This In Memory Of Me.

The blood that saves, is the blood shed on the cross.

 

[gr8grace3]

The word AGAIN means something changed from before.
The son was alive.
Then he was dead.
Then he was alive AGAIN, as in the beginning.

I don't see how anymore could get around this.

If the son had died, in the sense that he had lost his salvation. Why didn't the Father give the son the gospel message? The only way to be saved is trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ.

If the son had lost his salvation, The only thing he could have possibly understood was the Gospel message.

If the Son was unsaved when he came back to the Father......the Father would have said," Hold on a minute young man, You need the Lord Jesus Christ and you need to trust in Him for your salvation." Acts 16:31.

Or can an unbeliever just believe that they sinned against heaven and are not worthy and be saved?

 

[gr8grace3]

Hi Edward,

The blood that washes us from our sin is the blood that Jesus shed on the cross.
Like in Exodus. The blood from a spotless Lamb.
Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

So when we receive communion we are remembering this.
Jesus said, Do This In Memory Of Me.

The blood that saves, is the blood shed on the cross.

This is a little closer to what the father should have told the prodigal son...............if the prodigal son had lost his salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

If the son had died, in the sense that he had lost his salvation. Why didn't the Father give the son the gospel message? The only way to be saved is trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ.

If the son had lost his salvation, The only thing he could have possibly understood was the Gospel message.

If the Son was unsaved when he came back to the Father......the Father would have said," Hold on a minute young man, You need the Lord Jesus Christ and you need to trust in Him for your salvation." Acts 16:31.

Or can an unbeliever just believe that they sinned against heaven and are not worthy and be saved?

Are you serious?

Are you REALLY asking these questions?

1. JESUS WAS TELLING THE PARABLE.
Jesus IS THE GOSPEL.
I don't even know what you mean. Jesus is allowed to tell a parable however He deems fit.
It's not up to you or me to decide that He made a mistake.
Jesus said what He meant and meant what He said.
Please consider your question again...

2. As to your last question:

can an unbeliever just believe that they sinned against heaven and are not worthy and be saved?

I believe what you're asking is if a person can be saved without ever having heard the gospel message.

Yes. Absolutely. I had never heard the gospel message when I was saved.
I knew God existed and I knew Jesus was His Son.
One day, after I had climbed back up from the bottom of a pit, I asked God to help me never to get in there again.

He answered me. I recognized Him as Jesus. I felt like I knew Him.
Even though I did not know about "salvation", at that point I was saved.

I then sought to learn and began reading the bible and learning biblical concepts.
Kind of like meeting someone you like and you want to get to know more about them.

So, my answer is YES. You can be saved without ever having heard the gospel message.
BUT... it sure does make it a lot easier!!

 

[GodsGrace]

This is a little closer to what the father should have told the prodigal son...............if the prodigal son had lost his salvation.

What do you mean SHOULD HAVE TOLD??

Jesus is telling the parable.
You can't CHANGE IT.
You can only UNDERSAND IT.

The father said:

"This son of mine was DEAD (lost)
and has COME TO LIFE AGAIN (saved)
He was LOST
And has been FOUND"

It cannot be more clear.

Adam was a DEAD thing before God breathed life into him.
Then he came to LIFE.
Genesis

AND

"See, I have set before you today LIFE and prosperity,
and DEATH and adversity."
Deuteronomy 30:15

Life is being saved
Death is being lost.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Are you serious?

Are you REALLY asking these questions?

1. JESUS WAS TELLING THE PARABLE.
Jesus IS THE GOSPEL.
I don't even know what you mean. Jesus is allowed to tell a parable however He deems fit.
It's not up to you or me to decide that He made a mistake.
Jesus said what He meant and meant what He said.
Please consider your question again...

2. As to your last question:

can an unbeliever just believe that they sinned against heaven and are not worthy and be saved?

I believe what you're asking is if a person can be saved without ever having heard the gospel message.

Yes. Absolutely. I had never heard the gospel message when I was saved.
I knew God existed and I knew Jesus was His Son.
One day, after I had climbed back up from the bottom of a pit, I asked God to help me never to get in there again.

He answered me. I recognized Him as Jesus. I felt like I knew Him.
Even though I did not know about "salvation", at that point I was saved.

I then sought to learn and began reading the bible and learning biblical concepts.
Kind of like meeting someone you like and you want to get to know more about them.

So, my answer is YES. You can be saved without ever having heard the gospel message.
BUT... it sure does make it a lot easier!!

I got saved without ever hearing a Gospel message or an altar call.
I did hear the Word of God and confessed inside me that I believed Jesus to be God.
And then the fire of the Holy spirit came upon me.

 

[gr8grace3]

Are you serious?

Are you REALLY asking these questions?

Yes I am serious.

If the Prodigal son had lost his salvation and now was an unbeliever. Why didn't the Father(the lord Jesus Christ) say to him," You need to believe on the Lord Jesus and trust in His work for your salvation?"

Loss of salvation means that the son had lost the Spirit and with that comes the loss of all divine knowledge. It would be back to square one for the unbeliever.

 

[GodsGrace]

I got saved without ever hearing a Gospel message or an altar call.
I did hear the Word of God and confessed inside me that I believed Jesus to be God.
And then the fire of the Holy spirit came upon me.

Amen to that.
God calls to us in many ways.
His voice will always be heard by a heart that is ready for him.
Whether or not they hear the gospel message or whether or not they go up to an altar.
I never went up to an altar either.

We must only believe Jesus to be our Savior.
Acts 2:21
Acts 4:12

 

[gr8grace3]

Rom 10:14~~New American Standard Bible
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes I am serious.

If the Prodigal son had lost his salvation and now was an unbeliever. Why didn't the Father(the lord Jesus Christ) say to him," You need to believe on the Lord Jesus and trust in His work for your salvation?"

Loss of salvation means that the son had lost the Spirit and with that comes the loss of all divine knowledge. It would be back to square one for the unbeliever.

The reason that Jesus told the parable of the Prodigal Son was to show that a person could leave God and go out into the world and then be sorry for it. Nowhere are we as well off as with our "Father".

It's to show that we could be sorry that we ever left our Father, and that He will wait for us with open arms when we're ready to return.

It's to show how much our Father loves us that he is willing to take us back even after we deny Him.

I don't mean to be unkind, but I think you're looking at this parable in an incorrect way.
Maybe you put TOO MUCH importance on the gospel message??

Do you know what the gospel message was before Paul wrote Romans and set the theology for Christianity?
When Jesus told the Apostles, in Mathew 28:19, to make disciples of all nations and to teach them to observe all that He had commanded them...

What do you think Jesus meant?

There was NO GOSPEL AS WE KNOW IT TODAY, when Jesus was alive and telling the parable of the Prodigal Son.

Paul set the gospel message about salvation many years after Jesus died. At least 20 yrs after. (when he began to write the letters).

 

[GodsGrace]

I got saved without ever hearing a Gospel message or an altar call.
I did hear the Word of God and confessed inside me that I believed Jesus to be God.
And then the fire of the Holy spirit came upon me.

P.S.

This just reminded me of The Road To Emmaus.
Luke 24:32

 

[GodsGrace]

Rom 10:14~~New American Standard Bible
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Please read Romans 1:19-20

and let us know what you believe it means...

 

[gr8grace3]

The reason that Jesus told the parable of the Prodigal Son was to show that a person could leave God and go out into the world and then be sorry for it. Nowhere are we as well off as with our "Father".

It's to show that we could be sorry that we ever left our Father, and that He will wait for us with open arms when we're ready to return.

It's to show how much our Father loves us that he is willing to take us back even after we deny Him.

I don't mean to be unkind, but I think you're looking at this parable in an incorrect way.
Maybe you put TOO MUCH importance on the gospel message??

Do you know what the gospel message was before Paul wrote Romans and set the theology for Christianity?
When Jesus told the Apostles, in Mathew 28:19, to make disciples of all nations and to teach them to observe all that He had commanded them...

What do you think Jesus meant?

There was NO GOSPEL AS WE KNOW IT TODAY, when Jesus was alive and telling the parable of the Prodigal Son.

Paul set the gospel message about salvation many years after Jesus died. At least 20 yrs after. (when he began to write the letters).

Heb 1:10~~New Living Translation
He also says to the Son, "In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundation of the earth and made the heavens with your hands.

John 6:40~~New American Standard Bible
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."