Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[gr8grace3]

Please read Romans 1:19-20

and let us know what you believe it means...

God consciousness. God has revealed Himself.......to ALL mankind. Reject His Gospel, and it is on US.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Hi Dirtfarmer,

I haven't been following along, but would like to say this:
As you know by now, I DO believe in the possibility of loss of salvation because the N.T. speaks to this repeatedly.

What portion does an unbeliever have?
The Son was Not an unbeliever when he asked for his inheritance.
I believe you're confirming this with verse 12.
So the Father gave the son what his inheritance was till that moment. There was to be no further inheritance after that.
God gives believers many good gifts and teaches them many good things WHILE they are sons.

THEN the son yearned to be independent, as you stated.
He LEFT the Father. If the Father had died while the son was away, he would have received NO FURTHER INHERITANCE.
He had already received all he was going to receive.
If a believer abandons God, he will not receive the promised salvation at the end of his life, because he must endure till the end.
Mathew 10:33
Mathew 24:13

The son did not only break fellowship, he was no longer consider a son except by name. A son that is one only by name is not truly a son.
If fellowship dies, the relationship dies. We like to say that we have a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with God. Do we or don't we?
A relationship must be maintained. If it is abandoned, the relationship dies.

Luke 15:21
The son HIMSELF realized he was no longer worthy to be called a son.

Luke 15:24
§The Father declares that the son was DEAD and has come to life AGAIN.
He was LOST and has been FOUND.

The word AGAIN means something changed from before.
The son was alive.
Then he was dead.
Then he was alive AGAIN, as in the beginning.

I don't see how anymore could get around this.

hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

Why did the father see him afar off, was he looking for his son to return?

Where do you find that the son was no longer considered a son?

As to our relationship with God the Father, do we maintain that relationship? If the relationship with God is broken, then why is it not necessary for Christ to be crucified again? If my belief that Christ paid the sin debt of the whole world, based on scripture. We have no fellowship with God until a relationship has been established and then we can have fellowship with God. How is that relationship established? Is not because we have been crucified with Christ and now our lives are with and in him? So does it not stand to reason that if we have the power to break that relationship(seal by the Spirit) that in order for that relationship to be re-established we have to be crucified again and be made a new creation again in Christ Jesus. Do we have the power of resurrection? Would we not have to have that power to resurrect "the old man" and become a lost sinner again, in order to lose our salvation.

For fellowship to be broken and restore doesn't require death or resurrection, only a reconciliation between the 2 parties. That reconciliation happens when we say the same as God says, that we have been overtaken by a fault (confess) and then that fellowship is restored and doesn't require a death and resurrection.

Did not the prodigal son retain his birth as the son of his father or did his heritage change to another father because fellowship was broken. Just as the one sheep that was lost, was he not part of that fold? He just didn't have fellowship with the shepherd, but he still belonged to that shepherd.

This conversation, no doubt, will continue. I have given some reasons as to why I believe as I do, but I must go cut the lawn for a church, will be back later.
dirtfarmer

 

[Mike]

I don't understand how someone can come to put their faith in Christ without hearing what He has done for them.

Romans 10:16-21 says faith comes by hearing His Word. If you're not cognizant of what He has done, how would you know His grace? Some might point to Romans 1:19 to support a limited revelation from an awareness of God, but I believe this is only step one in driving His Creation to the Gospel message. It's not enough to know that God must exist from what they observe in their world.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I don't understand how someone can come to put their faith in Christ without hearing what He has done for them.

Romans 10:16-21 says faith comes by hearing His Word. If you're not cognizant of what He has done, how would you know His grace? Some might point to Romans 1:19 to support a limited revelation from an awareness of God, but I believe this is only step one in driving His Creation to the Gospel message. It's not enough to know that God must exist from what they observe in their world.

hello Mike, dirtfarmer here

I agree that it is not enough to be aware or even know that Jesus was the Son of God. In the gospels when Jesus was casting out the demons they knew that Jesus was the Son of the living God. If they knew that then why we they not saved? because knowing who Jesus is, is not the same as trusting in him for salvation. We must have a faith that declares that he died in our place to pay our sin debt.

We can learn and observe God in nature, as Romans 1:19 points out, but that doesn't reveal the love of God through Jesus his Son. That is revealed from faith unto faith.

 

[gr8grace3]

I don't understand how someone can come to put their faith in Christ without hearing what He has done for them.

Romans 10:16-21 says faith comes by hearing His Word. If you're not cognizant of what He has done, how would you know His grace? Some might point to Romans 1:19 to support a limited revelation from an awareness of God, but I believe this is only step one in driving His Creation to the Gospel message. It's not enough to know that God must exist from what they observe in their world.

I can understand how it 'seems' that way to some folks. Lots of false teaching out there with a little bit of truth mixed in. The Holy Spirit is only going to use the little bit of truth that is mixed in there.

An alter call doesn't save. But there is a bit of truth in it. A sinners prayer(as most churches do them) doesn't save. But there is a bit of truth in them. Everyone that is saved has heard His gospel message and has believed it. It may have just been years of a tid bit here and a tid bit there. And the Holy Spirit put it together for us.

 

[Edward]

Hi Edward,

The blood that washes us from our sin is the blood that Jesus shed on the cross.
Like in Exodus. The blood from a spotless Lamb.
Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

So when we receive communion we are remembering this.
Jesus said, Do This In Memory Of Me.

The blood that saves, is the blood shed on the cross.

Absolutely, Sister! Total agreement. The blood that saves is the blood shed on the cross. (I tend to agree with you about the transubstantiation of the wine, while not 100% on it as you are too...there probably is truth in it wherein on the spiritual level something happens to the wine and it is transformed into the real deal and becomes spiritual truth and life in the blood)

However, both you and Chessman skipped over the body/flesh part of my post and question. Everyone always glosses over the other part. I've been shown that only half of the truth is being taught about communion, about the blood of Jesus is all that is being taught. There is another part that Jesus addressed, His body, the bread.

Matthew 26:26
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.../

...which is broken for you, this do in remembrance of Me.../ (1 Corinthians 11:24)

Now pay attention to the wording between these two scriptures. The first, the prophecy. The second, the fulfillment.

Isaiah 53:5
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.../

1 Peter 2:24
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.../

...we are healed...
...ye were healed...

Isn't that awesome, Sister?! Somewhere in between are and were is, IS, as in now. It's highly probable that many Christians through ignorance are walking around sick. Because they do not receive the healing spiritually through Christs body in communion. No wonder we're supposed to partake communion every day.

Praise the Lord!

 

[chessman]

Thanks for the reply.

You're welcome. And thanks for the question. If you ever see something I post that's taken out of context or in contradiction to Scripture, please point it out. I'll listen.

For example, you said:

Re 1 Corinthians 11:30...

It begins with verse 11:28.
We're not supposed to take communion if we have unforgiven sin. We should ask for forgiveness first. ...

The idea is that if we receive communion with unforgiven sin we will become weak in body OR DIE.

Actually, v28 says we are to examine ourselves (test ourselves and show ourselves genuine). It's the word used for testing done to prove that a coin is genuine silver, versus fake, for example.

1 Corinthians 11:28 But let a person examine himself, and in this way let him eat from the bread and let him drink from the cup. ​

Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: dokimazo
Phonetic Spelling: (dok-im-ad'-zo)
Short Definition: I put to the test, prove, examine
Definition: I put to the test, prove, examine; I distinguish by testing, approve after testing; I am fit.

And at the Last supper, Jesus said His blood was poured out for the forgiveness of sins for many (not just them).

Matthew 26:28-29 for this is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. But I tell you, from now on I will never drink of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in the kingdom of my Father.” ​

I'm pretty much decided about everything in our faith, but I have a difficult time with this and am not 100% certain either way.

I know that at communion I feel the real presence of the Spirit there. And I can see the Scripture that tells me what discipline would happen to me or others that do not remember His death, resurrected body and poured out blood at the Lord's supper. That is, weakness, sickness and even death as necessary really happened (at least at Corinth). I find it very interesting that some people do not see the same thing in this passage. I haven't seen any Biblical reasons presented to change my view.

 

[FreeGrace]

FG

Real Presence is the concept present in many Protestant churches that believe that communion, the bread and blood of Christ is MORE than just a symbolic ritual to remember the sacrifice of Christ.

Like the RCC and their view that the bread and juice become the actual body and blood of Christ?

In some denominations it becomes a MEMORIAL. As it we were standing at the foot of the cross.
Sometimes it's said that Catholics sacrifice Jesus at every Mass, but this is not true. It's a memorial.
(I'm not Catholic)

I believe the Bible is clear that it is to be a memorial of what Christ did for us.

But I don't accept the idea of "real Presence" during the communion. I do believe that God's very presence dwells in me. The Holy Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace]

Re 1 Corinthians 11:30...

It begins with verse 11:28.

Actually, it begins with v.17.

We're not supposed to take communion if we have unforgiven sin. We should ask for forgiveness first. Some churches have a ritual for this.
Or, it could be private between us and God.

If the whole context is considered, we find it's much more than unconfessed sin. I recommend v.17-22 for what else was a problem for the congregation in Corinth, and why Paul wrote v.30.

The idea is that if we receive communion with unforgiven sin we will become weak in body OR DIE. Sleep, means to die.
I've never seen this and I find this difficult to believe. Sick...maybe. Unforgiven sin that is on our conscience could make us weak, affecting our physical body.

Paul was clear about all the problems with the Corinthians during communion leading to weakness, sickness and death.

verse 27 is also very interesting. Don't know if you care to discuss...

Of course. To take communion "in an unworthy manner" means to be out of fellowship with the Lord. iow, how can one participate in this memorial if they are out of fellowship. They're just hypocrites.

Is this off topic? No. Because some churches believe communion helps to keep us saved.
It could be considered a "work".

And I strongly disagree with those churches. God doesn't need our help in any way, nor does He command us to do anything to "help keep us saved".

Such a view does great dishonor to the completed work of Christ on our behalf.

It is God alonw who keeps us saved. Which is what John 10:29 speaks of.

 

[FreeGrace]

Maybe you put TOO MUCH importance on the gospel message??

Good grief! How is that even possible? How can anyone be saved apart from the gospel? No one.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good grief! How is that even possible? How can anyone be saved apart from the gospel? No one.

Two persons right here on this thread just told you they got saved and never heard the gospel message!!

Good Grief!!
Maybe we're not really saved?
2

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Several things need to be considered before this parable can be used as a salvation parable.
Why did the son say in verse 21 ," I am no more worthy to be called thy son." Does this not speak of a previous relationship in which he was worthy to be called his son, but now feels as though he is no longer worthy?
Does the unsaved have the ability to use the Father's property as his own? Verse 12, " And the younger of them said to his father; Father give me the portion of goods that falleth to me." What "portion" does an unbeliever have that is coming to him except the lake of fire.
Is God Father to unbelievers? verse 12, "And the younger of them said to his father".
Did the prodigal have a yearn to be independent from the father? Does an unbeliever have desire to be independent of God's control, as did the prodigal?
A sense of self-ownership could not be kept while near the father, hence the going into a far country( the breaking of fellowship), but we notice in verse 18 the prodigal said: " I will arise and go to my father". This is before he left the "far country" before the father ever sees him coming. Is an unbeliever capable of calling God Father before being accepted by God?

The whole point, I mean entire point, of the parable is to represent that of the nation of Israel and their leaving God(the father) and then their one day return home.

Hosea 14 speaks of this.

 

[Nathan]

No, not everyone are legitimate sons.

Hebrews 12:8 But if you are without discipline, in which all legitimate sons have become participants, then you are illegitimate and not sons. ​

Yes. Here are three different types of punishment that the Lord uses to discipline/train His sons that do not recognize His body properly during the Lord's supper:

1 Corinthians 11:29-30 For the one who eats and drinks, if he does not recognize the body, eats and drinks judgment against himself. Because of this, many are weak and sick among you, and quite a few have died. ​

For a son that does not recognize the body of Christ during the Lord's Supper their death is BOTH punishment and discipline. See 1 Cor11:29-30. Where would any Scriptural support be found for your claim???


Unless you don't believe Paul wrote God breathed Scripture teaching us how to partake of the Lord's Supper (which goes against this site's SoF) then that person might now think death is not discipline.

A person like that might even be trained by becoming weak or sick from their neglect of recognizing the body during the Lord's supper and stop their neglect.

Or they might be trained by watching other brothers get sick or die.

But either way, after that person dies, he'll then recognize the body of the Lord (face-to-face), and he'll get trained.

When a person partakes in the Lord's Supper, disregarding it and profaning it, they are guilty of His body and blood.

1Co 11:27
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.

They are not disciplined for this, they are punished - to be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord is not something that is apart of the believers life. Christ died for us, to take away our guilt - covering it with His blood. If in turn, it is placed back on us - what forgiveness is there for it?

 

[chessman]

Why did the father see him afar off, was he looking for his son to return?

Yes. The father remained gracious and faithful (to at least tie some relevance to the OP).

Where do you find that the son was no longer considered a son?

Nowhere. In fact, as Jesus told the story

Luke 15:18, 20-21 I will set out and go to my father and will say to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight! And he set out and came to his own father. But while he was still a long way away, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. And his son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight! I am no longer worthy to be called your son!’​

If the parable was about loss of sonship (versus how gracious our "own father" is, would not Jesus have said:

' I will set out and go to my former father and will say to him, ‘Former Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight! And he set out and came to his own former father. But while he was still a long way away, his former father saw him and had compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. And his former son said to him, ‘Former Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight! I am no longer worthy to be called your son!’

The word translated "own" (own father while he was still far off) is the same word translated "his home" elsewhere. (Luke 24:12) In other words, he came to "his home" while he was still far off.

http://biblehub.com/greek/1438.htm

 

[Nathan]

I can understand how it 'seems' that way to some folks. Lots of false teaching out there with a little bit of truth mixed in. The Holy Spirit is only going to use the little bit of truth that is mixed in there.

An alter call doesn't save. But there is a bit of truth in it. A sinners prayer(as most churches do them) doesn't save. But there is a bit of truth in them. Everyone that is saved has heard His gospel message and has believed it. It may have just been years of a tid bit here and a tid bit there. And the Holy Spirit put it together for us.

There was a "bit" of truth in satans lie to Eve when he told her that disobeying God would not actually cause death.......

Gen 3:4-5
But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

I wonder how many people today still fall for this - thinking that something they 'did' gave them eternal life(inability to die), to possess, even apart from God?

 

[chessman]

They are not disciplined for this, they are punished

Once again (last time), Biblical discipline includes punishment.

3811 paideúō (from 3816 /país, "a child under development with strict training") – properly, to train up a child (3816 /país), so they mature and realize their full potential(development). This requires necessary discipline (training), which includes administering chastisement (punishment).

http://biblehub.com/greek/3811.htm

 

[Nathan]

Once again (last time), Biblical discipline includes punishment.

3811 paideúō (from 3816 /país, "a child under development with strict training") – properly, to train up a child (3816 /país), so they mature and realize their full potential(development). This requires necessary discipline (training), which includes administering chastisement (punishment).

http://biblehub.com/greek/3811.htm

There are different forms of "punishment" - just like there are different forms of "love".

Your trying to say one form of punishment is just like all other forms of punishment. Its not. Never has been, never will be. God has never disciplined someone with death. Death is always a form of punishment(not the discipline form).

Unless you think there are not different forms of love also?

Chastisement is meant to bring about a change in a persons behavior. So is discipline.

Punishment, apart from chastisement or discipline, is not meant to bring about a change - just deliver the consequences of a persons choice.

Jeremiah 2 is a good read on this subject.

 

[Nathan]

Absolutely, Sister! Total agreement. The blood that saves is the blood shed on the cross. (I tend to agree with you about the transubstantiation of the wine, while not 100% on it as you are too...there probably is truth in it wherein on the spiritual level something happens to the wine and it is transformed into the real deal and becomes spiritual truth and life in the blood)

However, both you and Chessman skipped over the body/flesh part of my post and question. Everyone always glosses over the other part. I've been shown that only half of the truth is being taught about communion, about the blood of Jesus is all that is being taught. There is another part that Jesus addressed, His body, the bread.

Matthew 26:26
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.../

...which is broken for you, this do in remembrance of Me.../ (1 Corinthians 11:24)

Now pay attention to the wording between these two scriptures. The first, the prophecy. The second, the fulfillment.

Isaiah 53:5
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.../

1 Peter 2:24
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.../

...we are healed...
...ye were healed...

Isn't that awesome, Sister?! Somewhere in between are and were is, IS, as in now. It's highly probable that many Christians through ignorance are walking around sick. Because they do not receive the healing spiritually through Christs body in communion. No wonder we're supposed to partake communion every day.

Praise the Lord!

Your absolutely correct Edward. His body for us is just as important as His blood.

Jhn 6:27
Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.”

Jhn 6:48-58
I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

Jesus blood is what covers our sin, His body is what gives us life.

Some just want their sins forgiven - sadly so they can just go away feeling good about their selves. Jesus wants us to eat - feed - on Him, so we will live forever. No one just eats one meal and thinks they do not need to eat any more.

We are going to eat. So what are we going to eat? Feed on Jesus and you live forever.

 

[FreeGrace]

Two persons right here on this thread just told you they got saved and never heard the gospel message!!

Good Grief!!
Maybe we're not really saved?
2

Or, maybe they aren't very familiar with what the Bible says about how to get saved.

Regarding their comments:
Rom 10
13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

Or, Paul's answer to the jailer's question: "what MUST I DO to be saved?"
Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

I know I'm saved. I have placed my trust in Jesus Christ as Savior to save me. He saves all who believe in Him for it.

 

[gr8grace3]

Yes. The father remained gracious and faithful (to at least tie some relevance to the OP).


Nowhere. In fact, as Jesus told the story

Luke 15:18, 20-21 I will set out and go to my father and will say to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight! And he set out and came to his own father. But while he was still a long way away, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. And his son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight! I am no longer worthy to be called your son!’​

If the parable was about loss of sonship (versus how gracious our "own father" is, would not Jesus have said:

' I will set out and go to my former father and will say to him, ‘Former Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight! And he set out and came to his own former father. But while he was still a long way away, his former father saw him and had compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. And his former son said to him, ‘Former Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight! I am no longer worthy to be called your son!’

The word translated "own" (own father while he was still far off) is the same word translated "his home" elsewhere. (Luke 24:12) In other words, he came to "his home" while he was still far off.

http://biblehub.com/greek/1438.htm

Honestly. If he had lost his salvation and became an unbeliever again...........He wouldn't even know that he had a 'former' father. He would be in darkness again. He wouldn't even know what to go 'back' to. Loss of salvation is more than just off to the Lof for you you rat. Loss of salvation would mean we lost His mind also. We wouldn't know what to go back to.

But good post Chessman. Just shows the silliness of the idea that a believer can lose their salvation.