[_ Old Earth _] Science and Christianity go hand in hand

[Blazin Bones]

Yes, the link just worked for me. Keebs, your article is wrong.

 

[cubedbee]

Gary: Utter rubbish. Islam makes no such claims. Muhammad performed no miracles.

Here you say that Islam doesn't claim Muhammad performed miracles.

Still so sure keebs? Your article refers to the Hadith (not the Quran!)

Here you mock keebs, because the examples he gave of Muhammad's miracles come from the Hadith.

You are very knowledgable about Islam, Gary. Are you really making the claim that it is the Quaran alone that comprises Islam? If so, how about this post, where you say "Islam is founded on the Quran and, more importantly, the Hadith." You should make up your mind about the Hadith. You need to either retract your previous statement, or apologize to keebs for your rude, condescending, and completely invalid criticism.

 

[Gary]

cubedbee: "... You should make up your mind about the Hadith."

Gary: Islam is founded on the Quran and, more importantly, the Hadith. The Hadith are NOT inspired nor do the Muslims claim that the Hadith are "Allah-inspired".

Gary: The rituals come from the Hadith. Most of the Islamic law comes from a combination of the Hadith and the Quran. So we have a combination of Allah-inspired commandments (many of which are the Jihad ones) and the words and deeds of Muhammad (the Hadith). Muslims do NOT claim that the Hadith are inspired. However, their religion IS based on many of the Hadith!

Gary: cubedbee, the Quran takes precedence over the Hadith. If the Quran and the Hadith give contradictory statements (as they often do), then the Quran takes precedence. Therefore, when the Quran says that Muhammad did NOT have the power to perform miracles, then it overrules the Hadith. Hence the "miracles" in the Hadith are nullified. We believe that the Hadith "miracles" were added much later (over 200 years after Muhammad died) when Christians asked Muslims to prove that Muhammad was a true prophet of the living God.

Despite the fact that Mohammed repeatedly claimed in the Quran to be a warner to Arabia, one who did not pertorm miracles and signs, tradition records a number of occasions on which miracles are alleged to have been performed. Let us first look at what the Quran has to say:

"They (the Jews) say: 'We shall not believe in thee, until thou cause a spring to gush forth from the earth (as Moses in Exodus 17:6) or thou have a house adorned with gold (Solomon in I Kings 6:21 ff.), or thou mount a ladder right into the skies (Jacob in Genesis 28:12)'...Say: 'Glory to my Lord! Am I aught but a man, - an Apostle?' "(Sura 17:90-93).

"We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false." (Sura 17:59).

"The unbelievers say: 'Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord? But thou art truly a warner and to every people a guide (Sura 13:7).

"When there comes to them a sign (from Allah) (i.e. the Quran Sura 2:99, 151, 252) they say: 'We shall not believe until We receive one like those received by Allah's Apostle! Allah knows best where (and how) to carry out His mission." (Sura 6:124).

"They say: 'Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?' Say: 'Allah hath certainly power to send down a sign. 'But most of them understand not!" (Sura 6:37).

"Say those without knowledge: 'Why speaketh not Allah unto us? Or why cometh not unto us a sign?' So said the people before them words of similar import. Their hearts are alike. We have indeed made clear the signs...We have sent thee in truth as a bearer of good tidings and a warner." (Sura 2:118-119).

All this is plainly contradicted by the Hadis that tell us stories of signs.

Source: http://www.answering-islam.org/Nehls/Ask/proofs.html

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cubedbee: "... You should make up your mind about the Hadith."

Gary: I have. They are VERY funny! :D Below is the result of my study of the "Muhanmmad-inspired" Hadith. Enjoy!
http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/hadith

.

 

[cubedbee]

Gary: The rituals come from the Hadith. Most of the Islamic law comes from a combination of the Hadith and the Quran. So we have a combination of Allah-inspired commandments (many of which are the Jihad ones) and the words and deeds of Muhammad (the Hadith). Muslims do NOT claim that the Hadith are inspired. However, their religion IS based on many of the Hadith!

Gary: cubedbee, the Quran takes precedence over the Hadith. If the Quran and the Hadith give contradictory statements (as they often do), then the Quran takes precedence. Therefore, when the Quran says that Muhammad did NOT have the power to perform miracles, then it overrules the Hadith. Hence the "miracles" in the Hadith are nullified. We believe that the Hadith "miracles" were added much later (over 200 years after Muhammad died) when Christians asked Muslims to prove that Muhammad was a true prophet of the living God.

You can't even admit when you're wrong. On what basis do you claim that the Hadith miracles are "nullified" Once again Gary, just because you make a claim about Islam, doesn't mean practicing Muslims actually believe what you claim. Do an internet serach on "Muhammad miracles" and you will find thousands of Muslim-run sites talking about these miracles from the Hadith. Talk to a Muslim(I have), and they will tell you of the miracles performed in the Hadith. Talk to Gary, and he will say "Yeah, those are miracles, but they don't count. Islam doesn't really have miracles". Who to believe?

 

[Gary]

Either the Hadith is wrong or the Quran is wrong..... which do you choose?

Either the Hadith is wrong or the Quran is wrong..... which do you choose?

You have fallen into the dilemma many Muslims have been forced to face and have been unable to resolve UNLESS they take the "Quran has precedence over the Hadith" stance.

Want MUSLIM evidence???

11. The Quran should hold precedence over the Hadith:

This also shows that the Quran should be given preference over everything else, even the Hadith. If there is a hadith which seems to be against the clear teachings of the Quran, the rule is that the furu' (details) should be subjected to the usul (principles). The Quran says that all the necessary matters relating to the bases of religion have been made perfect in it, but as far as the furu' are concerned, their scope is limitless. The usul have been stated in the Quran in a clear and explicit manner, but only some of the furu', according to the need, have been mentioned. In the Hadith, whatever is mentioned is mostly about the furu' which cannot be given preference over the usul. As a consequence of this, the Hadith should be subjected to the authority of the Quran and any hadith which is against the clear verdict of the Quran cannot be accepted.

Source: http://aaiil.org/text/books/mali/promis ... nces.shtml

:D :D :D

 

[cubedbee]

I don't think the Quaran says what you claim it does. You are misinterpreting the passages to say that Muhammed can't perform miracles, when they are actually only examples of times he did not perform miracles. The Bible too has a story of Jesus refusing to provide a sign for those who asked. You claiming the Muslims have a 'dilemma' because of this issue is the same as the atheists here saying we have a 'dilemma' because of supposed contradictions in the Bible. It doesn't matter what those outside the religion think--Muslims are able to reconcile the passages you claim to be contradictory.

 

[Gary]

"We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false." (Sura 17:59).

Muslim commentary

A. Yusuf Ali: Past generations treated Signs and Portents with contempt or rebellion and brought about their own undoing.

 

[Guest]

Gary: Utter rubbish. Islam makes no such claims. Muhammad performed no miracles. Even the Quran recognises that fact.

And the angel Gabriel delivering Allah's words to Muhammad is not considered a miracle?

:wink: No it isn't because it didn't actually happen.
Muhammad is now dead,so you do know this right?
The holy bible is alot older than the Quran.
You might want to read the Quran sometime.
If anyone told Muhammad anything,it had to be satan.

 

[Guest]

How do you know it never happened? And, that's besides the point anyways, as I was referring to miracles that other religions claim. It doesn't make a difference whether it happened or not, just that another religion claims it to happen.

 

[bibleberean]

How do you know it never happened? And, that's besides the point anyways, as I was referring to miracles that other religions claim. It doesn't make a difference whether it happened or not, just that another religion claims it to happen.

Please sign in. You may not realize it but we don't know who you are.

I have done the same thing. I don't know why this is happening but you should log in before you post.

Thanks,

bibleberean

 

[Guest]

How do you know it never happened? And, that's besides the point anyways, as I was referring to miracles that other religions claim. It doesn't make a difference whether it happened or not, just that another religion claims it to happen.

8-) Well,as a christian,lets just say I doubt that it happened very
strongly.

 

[keebs]

Well I doubt that it happened too, although to me it's just as crazy as saying that Jesus was the son of God.

 

[Asimov]

Well I doubt that it happened too, although to me it's just as crazy as saying that Jesus was the son of God.

Keebs, that's not crazy, that's so obviously true, you've just blinded yourself, amen.

 

[bibleberean]

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Good science glorifies the Creator.

Bad science glorifies creation.

 

[Blazin Bones]

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Good science glorifies the Creator.

Bad science glorifies creation.

Amen. Unfortunately, something tells me not everyone will like hearing this.

 

[Guest]

Well I doubt that it happened too, although to me it's just as crazy as saying that Jesus was the son of God.

8-) Yet,you will believe that apes are your ancestors?
WOW!!!

 

[keebs]

Yet,you will believe that apes are your ancestors?

Well, considering that humans are classified as part of the ape family...

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

Well I doubt that it happened too, although to me it's just as crazy as saying that Jesus was the son of God.

8-) Yet,you will believe that apes are your ancestors?
WOW!!!

You're just embarrassed because your distant cousins pick fleas out of each other's hair. It's not like we're forcing you to invite them to dinner.

 

[Asimov]

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Good science glorifies the Creator.

Bad science glorifies creation.

And I'm willing to be that anything that fits your biased religious view is good science, and anything that doesn't fit it is bad science. Just as everyone who doesn't agree with you isn't a True Christian, eh berean?

 

[Asimov]

Well I doubt that it happened too, although to me it's just as crazy as saying that Jesus was the son of God.

8-) Yet,you will believe that apes are your ancestors?
WOW!!!

Proof of evolution, give an old guy a video camera, and a chimp a video camera. Same thing happens.

On a more serious note, blue...if you are related genetically to something, chances are that your ancestors were the same.