Scriptural fundamentalism & literal interpretation

[for_his_glory]

What is the theme of this thread? 'Literal interpretation'. You seem to be confusing literalism with literal interpretation.

The problem is that we are not reading a story like Jack and Jill. Try that approach with the Book of Leviticus or the Book of Revelation. The fact is that we are dealing with a book that has been translated from Hebrew-Aramaic (OT) and Greek (NT) and the culture is Middle-Eastern. There are way too many nuances of language to read it like a Jack & Jill story. Take a simple word translated as 'love' and its 6 different words for the ancient Greeks.

Oz

Is this not what you said in post # 98 and I quote you: "So I insist that nobody gives up on biblical interpretation - literal interpretation as I've described in this thread."

Definition of Literalism: the disposition to take words and statements in their literal sense - literal or realistic portrayal in art or literature

Why would you even use the words biblical interpretation if all of Gods word is literal. Why would we even attempt to interpret that which is literal as it would be given in plain language to the history and the culture we can understand and needs no interpretation.

One more thing is that we only speak English and understand English words, but can learn the history and the culture of the time period, but never understand the original languages unless we are a student of those languages.

 

[Butch5]

Did I answer this?
It's insightful, spiritual learning beyond, but not in contradiction of, the plain words of scripture.
It's what Paul had in revealing for us the spiritual truths hiding behind the literal stipulations of the Mosaic law. His spiritual insights give us the precedent for seeing additional spiritual insights into the words of scripture. And because believers have the capacity for spiritual discernment (1 John 2:27 NASB) we can, ultimately, not be led astray by erroneous so-called spiritual insights.

But Paul had a direct connection with Jesus. I've seen many people who claim that the Spirit is teaching them and yet they hold doctrines that contradict the Scriptures. So how would one know that this '"Spiritual insight" is actually from God?

 

[Edward]

I happen to be a Spirit-filled person who rejects the extra-biblical revelation of esoteric, subjective knowledge. My answer is in the Bible See 2 Tim 3:16-17 (NIV).

Extra-biblical revelation of esoteric subjective knowledge is what the Holy Spirit does, so to reject it, is to reject the Holy Spirit.

Is the Bible a book on hermeneutics (biblical interpretation)? Or, is it a book to be read like any other document with the same interpretive principles that we use for a text book at school?

I read the Bible with the same interpretive principles that I would a personal letter from a friend.

 

[OzSpen]

Ya, I'm dealing with it, but you refuse to see it as you have a closed mind to what many of us have been showing you especially with scripture how literal and spiritual Gods word can be in parts. Did you start this thread to get a rise out of people or do you actually want to discuss that of what and how others believe to be truth to them by how they study?

This is another red herring. We can't have a logical discussion when you resort to this kind of fallacious reasoning.

 

[OzSpen]

Is this not what you said in post # 98 and I quote you: "So I insist that nobody gives up on biblical interpretation - literal interpretation as I've described in this thread."

Definition of Literalism: the disposition to take words and statements in their literal sense - literal or realistic portrayal in art or literature

Why would you even use the words biblical interpretation if all of Gods word is literal. Why would we even attempt to interpret that which is literal as it would be given in plain language to the history and the culture we can understand and needs no interpretation.

One more thing is that we only speak English and understand English words, but can learn the history and the culture of the time period, but never understand the original languages unless we are a student of those languages.

Please go back to #21 where I defined literalism, as I understand it, and it not as you have stated here.

You stated,

One more thing is that we only speak English and understand English words, but can learn the history and the culture of the time period, but never understand the original languages unless we are a student of those languages.

That may be so for you, but it is not so for me. I speak, read and teach NT Greek.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Extra-biblical revelation of esoteric subjective knowledge is what the Holy Spirit does, so to reject it, is to reject the Holy Spirit.

I read the Bible with the same interpretive principles that I would a personal letter from a friend.

Don't you understand that those two statements by you are contradictory? You can't have extra-biblical revelation, esoteric subjective knowledge and use 'the same interpretive principles' on the Bible as you do with a personal letter. That's speaking out of both sides of the mouth at the same time.

I can endorse the Holy Spirit speaking to us through Scripture and illuminating the Scripture. See J I Packer's explanation, 'Illumination: The Holy Spirit gives spiritual understanding'.

The Holy Spirit's illumination is radically different from the esoteric knowledge you are advocating. Why don't you compare Packer's exposition with 'Esoteric Philosophy is the source and foundation of all knowledge'. With your promotion of esoteric knowledge, you are straying into the realms of Theosophy and the occult.

Instead of seeking esoteric knowledge, we should be seeking the Holy Spirit's illumination of Scripture. This does not transmit truth but provides understanding of truth that is already stated/revealed in Scripture. We see an example of this in Ps 119:18 (ESV), 'Open my eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of your law'. This is not esoteric knowledge but illumination of existing Scripture. The apostle Paul provided a NT example, indicating that 'we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given by God' (1 Cor 2:12 ESV). This is illumination of what is already given and 'we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual' (1 Cor 2:13 ESV).

This is the ministry of illumination - not extra-biblical, esoteric knowledge.

Oz

 

[for_his_glory]

Please go back to #21 where I defined literalism, as I understand it, and it not as you have stated here.

You stated,


That may be so for you, but it is not so for me. I speak, read and teach NT Greek.

Oz

There is the whole problem for you understand it as you can speak, read and teach Greek and use that to interpret only the NT, but what about all the cross referencing of the OT that is the shadow of all prophecy and revelations in the NT. Many of us study by using the concordance to look up words in scripture to shed more light on what certain words mean in Hebrew and Greek for our English has many definitions for one single word. We also rely on the gift God has given us in His Holy Spirit that dwells within us and teaches us all things of the literal and especially the spiritual meaning of scripture.

Each one of us will stand alone before Christ to give an account for those things we have learned and taught others as we study to show ourselves approve of God by rightly dividing the word of God and using spiritual discernment to know truth from error, 2Timothy 2:15; 1John 4:1-6. It is the Holy Spirit that will convict us if we are wrong, but only if our hearts are opened for correction.

 

[for_his_glory]

This is another red herring. We can't have a logical discussion when you resort to this kind of fallacious reasoning.

What is so fallacious about what I said as I am trying to have a logical discussion. I believe literal is the same as literalism and that the literal can also be metaphors for the Spiritual things God wants us to see. It's no big deal if you do not agree with that as there are just a few that get that as 1 Corinthians Chapter 2 Paul speaks of the wisdom of God in a mystery as being the spiritual deeper things of God that can only be revealed by the Holy Spirit and not everyone will understand. Jesus spoke the same thing to Nicodemus and asked him in John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

 

[Edward]

Scripture is our most used tool for our spiritual growth.

Don't you understand that those two statements by you are contradictory? You can't have extra-biblical revelation, esoteric subjective knowledge and use 'the same interpretive principles' on the Bible as you do with a personal letter. That's speaking out of both sides of the mouth at the same time.

I can endorse the Holy Spirit speaking to us through Scripture and illuminating the Scripture. See J I Packer's explanation, 'Illumination: The Holy Spirit gives spiritual understanding'.

The Holy Spirit's illumination is radically different from the esoteric knowledge you are advocating. Why don't you compare Packer's exposition with 'Esoteric Philosophy is the source and foundation of all knowledge'. With your promotion of esoteric knowledge, you are straying into the realms of Theosophy and the occult.

Instead of seeking esoteric knowledge, we should be seeking the Holy Spirit's illumination of Scripture. This does not transmit truth but provides understanding of truth that is already stated/revealed in Scripture. We see an example of this in Ps 119:18 (ESV), 'Open my eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of your law'. This is not esoteric knowledge but illumination of existing Scripture. The apostle Paul provided a NT example, indicating that 'we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given by God' (1 Cor 2:12 ESV). This is illumination of what is already given and 'we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual' (1 Cor 2:13 ESV).

This is the ministry of illumination - not extra-biblical, esoteric knowledge.

Oz

Ah, you've misunderstood me. I meant that the Revelation and illumination given by the Holy Spirit is esoteric. It is according to how I understand the term esoteric.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Edward]

Why can't I read scripture like a letter to me? Many times when I read, it'll have a blurb in it, that is advisory to me through practical application to something going on in my life right then. As if the letter writer has personal knowledge of me, my life, and circumstances.
Like a letter from a friend. :wink

 

[Sinthesis]

What kind of extra-biblical, esoteric knowledge is on trial here?

 

[reba]

Why can't I read scripture like a letter to me? Many times when I read, it'll have a blurb in it, that is advisory to me through practical application to something going on in my life right then. As if the letter writer has personal knowledge of me, my life, and circumstances.
Like a letter from a friend. :wink

 

[Edward]

Supercool. I half expected to get all jumped on about that and denounced...

Then reba herself agrees with me!
Thanks, Sister.

 

[Edward]

What kind of extra-biblical, esoteric knowledge is on trial here?

Yeah, ditto...

 

[for_his_glory]

Why can't I read scripture like a letter to me? Many times when I read, it'll have a blurb in it, that is advisory to me through practical application to something going on in my life right then. As if the letter writer has personal knowledge of me, my life, and circumstances.
Like a letter from a friend. :wink

You are so right Edward as the Bible is our personal life application if we apply it to our own life just as Jesus is our one on one personal Savior. Especially in the NT where each book was written as a letter not a numbered chapter and verse (as man added the numbering) to the Church being the body of Christ and for us as an individual as the Holy Spirit teaches us and guides us into all truths.

 

[reba]

I see God as big enough to reach us where we are... He pulls us from Psa_40:2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
He has established me .. The Word says He numbers our hairs... How can He not be personal to each of us? What we need in a time of storm... We have the Comforter . One is not comforted by cold text.. His Word we are to hide in our hearts.. I am not blessed with a great mind..I often wish i was. there is Comfort in . Psa_19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
And o so thankful for those who have the intellect to do such as translate the Word.... For those who invented the printing press ... they are blessed as those Isa_52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

 

[for_his_glory]

I see God as big enough to reach us where we are... He pulls us from Psa_40:2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
He has established me .. The Word says He numbers our hairs... How can He not be personal to each of us? What we need in a time of storm... We have the Comforter . One is not comforted by cold text.. His Word we are to hide in our hearts.. I am not blessed with a great mind..I often wish i was. there is Comfort in . Psa_19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
And o so thankful for those who have the intellect to do such as translate the Word.... For those who invented the printing press ... they are blessed as those Isa_52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

:yes

 

[OzSpen]

There is the whole problem for you understand it as you can speak, read and teach Greek and use that to interpret only the NT, but what about all the cross referencing of the OT that is the shadow of all prophecy and revelations in the NT. Many of us study by using the concordance to look up words in scripture to shed more light on what certain words mean in Hebrew and Greek for our English has many definitions for one single word. We also rely on the gift God has given us in His Holy Spirit that dwells within us and teaches us all things of the literal and especially the spiritual meaning of scripture.

Each one of us will stand alone before Christ to give an account for those things we have learned and taught others as we study to show ourselves approve of God by rightly dividing the word of God and using spiritual discernment to know truth from error, 2Timothy 2:15; 1John 4:1-6. It is the Holy Spirit that will convict us if we are wrong, but only if our hearts are opened for correction.

You seem to be confusing two things - fulfilled prophecy vs types/shadows that are indicated as such in the NT (e.g. Rom 5:14 ESV).

I also use cross references, concordances, and the Holy Spirit who also dwells in me. So the Holy Spirit teaches you about 'the spiritual meaning of scripture' and the Holy Spirit teaches me that there is a literal text to be interpreted and there is spiritual application that He teaches me. Which one are we to believe since we both claim they are from the Holy Spirit? I accept and teach the content of John 7:17 (ESV).

You mentioned 2 Tim 2:15. What does it state? 'Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth' (2 Tim 2:15 ESV). 'Rightly handling' is a word that occurs only this one time in the NT and is a metaphor that means 'to cut straight'. There has been a lot of discussion among Bible students about what this word means but the original understanding seems to have been lost and the emphasis in context here seems to refer to doing something 'correctly' (as in the NIV).

Paul is probably referring to the need to preach and teach 'the word of truth' - the Gospel, especially in light of the context where he dealt with not quarreling about words (2 Tim 2:14 ESV) and the need to 'avoid irreverent babble' (2 Tim 2:16 ESV).

Oz

 

[for_his_glory]

You seem to be confusing two things - fulfilled prophecy vs types/shadows that are indicated as such in the NT (e.g. Rom 5:14 ESV).

I also use cross references, concordances, and the Holy Spirit who also dwells in me. So the Holy Spirit teaches you about 'the spiritual meaning of scripture' and the Holy Spirit teaches me that there is a literal text to be interpreted and there is spiritual application that He teaches me. Which one are we to believe since we both claim they are from the Holy Spirit? I accept and teach the content of John 7:17 (ESV).

You mentioned 2 Tim 2:15. What does it state? 'Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth' (2 Tim 2:15 ESV). 'Rightly handling' is a word that occurs only this one time in the NT and is a metaphor that means 'to cut straight'. There has been a lot of discussion among Bible students about what this word means but the original understanding seems to have been lost and the emphasis in context here seems to refer to doing something 'correctly' (as in the NIV).

Paul is probably referring to the need to preach and teach 'the word of truth' - the Gospel, especially in light of the context where he dealt with not quarreling about words (2 Tim 2:14 ESV) and the need to 'avoid irreverent babble' (2 Tim 2:16 ESV).

Oz

Types can be a prophetic symbol in the OT that cast a shadow that comes to light in the NT and can also represent something yet future spoken of in the NT as we cross reference. We can find a lot of this between the OT in Joel, Isaiah, Daniel and Ezekiel as we cross reference what is written in Revelations. Many types of things written in the OT are literal, but also spiritual in the NT.

There lays another problem right there in 2 Timothy 2:15. The KJV says rightly dividing the word of truth and your ESV uses the word handling the word of truth. To me there is a difference between dividing and handling. Dividing is that of dividing that of the literal to that of the deeper spiritual things, not being undertones, but that of the heavenly things God wants us to understand. That is why I use John 3:12 to show this as to what Jesus said and I believe. Handling the word to me would mean speaking it for the way it is written without adding traditional man made doctrines that give a different interpretation as being a carnal logical understanding.

You say Paul probably was referring, but by using the word probably would mean one really does not know for sure.

 

[OzSpen]

What is so fallacious about what I said as I am trying to have a logical discussion. I believe literal is the same as literalism and that the literal can also be metaphors for the Spiritual things God wants us to see. It's no big deal if you do not agree with that as there are just a few that get that as 1 Corinthians Chapter 2 Paul speaks of the wisdom of God in a mystery as being the spiritual deeper things of God that can only be revealed by the Holy Spirit and not everyone will understand. Jesus spoke the same thing to Nicodemus and asked him in John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

When you use a logical fallacy it involves fallacious reasoning. It's an error in reasoning. It is not dealing with an error in factual matters. See HERE.