security of the believer

[Nathan]

To me the danger of thinking you can loose your salvation (Once accepted) lies with thinking then, that you can keep it. To do so would mean some sort of effort on your part beyond the faith we are called to have.

Here is a quote from Adrian Rogers on this.

"If you think you're going to get to heaven by your good works, I
guarantee you will always wonder if you've done enough. You will not
have a "know-so" salvation. You will have a "hope-so" salvation. Rather
than standing up straight in confidence like an exclamation point, you
will be bent over and wondering like a question mark. That is, until you
understand that it's all by grace. Suppose everybody who wanted to be
saved had to run around the block. Some can't run. What if you had to
read a chapter in the Bible to be saved? Some can't read. But there is
one thing that can make the promise sure, and that is grace." - Adrian Rogers

This is indeed how I used to really consider the salvation thing. In fact, Adrian was one of the guys I learned a lot from. But I always found myself not being able to resolve the passages that spoke against it. I can say with all certainty that I do not have a 'hope-so' Salvation. I can also say with all honesty that I do not in the least believe that I can 'keep' my Salvation. And I can also say with all truthfulness that I do not believe that one can 'loose' Salvation.

But I can say with complete certainty, no shadow of doubt, that a man or woman can 'forsake' or 'abandon' their faith, which will result in their 'loss' of eternal life. How do I rationalize these beliefs in my head? Well to me its this simple. He keeps me. He lives in me. He guides me. He cleans me. He paid it all, all to Him I owe.

But with all the things He does for me, He also gives me free will. He gives me the choice of obeying Him or disobeying Him. He also warns that although His love for me is there till the end of time, if I allow sin to overtake me after being set free from it, it can, and I will harden my heart to His love in doing so. I will turn to a life of unbelief. How does that work? I have no clue and I do not want to know...lol. I do think I have had a glimpse though. This is not the time or place to discuss it, but I once found myself going down that road and it scared me to death.

But at the same time I can almost say that I was more aware of His Lordship over my life more than ever at that time. There is so much to the topic of Salvation it had a whole book of books wrote about it(Him). Its called the Bible. And while I am not saying ANYTHING negative about you or your studies, please hear me; I am saying it is impossible to fully grasp the richness of the depth contained about Salvation in the Bible with out taking ALL of it into account. And I do mean ALL of it. From the book of Numbers, to the book of Jude.

And while many will argue that security should not be taken for granted. I disagree. We should be extremely secure in our faith in Christ. In fact, we are admonished to make it a sure thing. My heart goes out to those who secretly are unsure and not secure, who do not want to mention it because they think it makes them look faithless. I found in my own life it was not till I reached that point that I fully came to the security that I longed for.

 

[watchman F]

This is indeed how I used to really consider the salvation thing. In fact, Adrian was one of the guys I learned a lot from. But I always found myself not being able to resolve the passages that spoke against it. I can say with all certainty that I do not have a 'hope-so' Salvation. I can also say with all honesty that I do not in the least believe that I can 'keep' my Salvation. And I can also say with all truthfulness that I do not believe that one can 'loose' Salvation.

But I can say with complete certainty, no shadow of doubt, that a man or woman can 'forsake' or 'abandon' their faith, which will result in their 'loss' of eternal life. How do I rationalize these beliefs in my head? Well to me its this simple. He keeps me. He lives in me. He guides me. He cleans me. He paid it all, all to Him I owe.

But with all the things He does for me, He also gives me free will. He gives me the choice of obeying Him or disobeying Him. He also warns that although His love for me is there till the end of time, if I allow sin to overtake me after being set free from it, it can, and I will harden my heart to His love in doing so. I will turn to a life of unbelief. How does that work? I have no clue and I do not want to know...lol. I do think I have had a glimpse though. This is not the time or place to discuss it, but I once found myself going down that road and it scared me to death.

But at the same time I can almost say that I was more aware of His Lordship over my life more than ever at that time. There is so much to the topic of Salvation it had a whole book of books wrote about it(Him). Its called the Bible. And while I am not saying ANYTHING negative about you or your studies, please hear me; I am saying it is impossible to fully grasp the richness of the depth contained about Salvation in the Bible with out taking ALL of it into account. And I do mean ALL of it. From the book of Numbers, to the book of Jude.

And while many will argue that security should not be taken for granted. I disagree. We should be extremely secure in our faith in Christ. In fact, we are admonished to make it a sure thing. My heart goes out to those who secretly are unsure and not secure, who do not want to mention it because they think it makes them look faithless. I found in my own life it was not till I reached that point that I fully came to the security that I longed for.

Excellent post nathaneil. Althugh the doctrine of eternal security better known as OSAS is false and has lead to the damnation of many. I do believe as you do nathaneil that we can indeed have an assurance of Salvation that surpasses our understanding of biblical doctrines.

 

[Chris]

The unforgivable sin- eject/grieve the Holy Spirit. If after accepting salvation you later change your mind about remaining a christian and reject/grieve the holy spirit you may have done this unforgivable sin , and lost salvation through willful rejection. Is that right? bit of a guess on my part. It was the first thing that came to mind regarding reversing salvation.

 

[littlelight]

Amen. I lost interest in this post when it seemed to degenerate into conditions of losing salvation other than to quit believing in Jesus. The entire epistle of Hebrews deals with Jews going back to the old Livitical system of sacrafice.

My reason for starting this post was to see if my new found belief in losing salvation would hold up to the scriptures others use to justify their belief of eternal salvation. I wasn't so much interested in seeing if others agreed with me so much as my being able to defend my belief. But it is nice to know others believe as I do.

 

[Nathan]

The unforgivable sin- eject/grieve the Holy Spirit. If after accepting salvation you later change your mind about remaining a christian and reject/grieve the holy spirit you may have done this unforgivable sin , and lost salvation through willful rejection. Is that right? bit of a guess on my part. It was the first thing that came to mind regarding reversing salvation.

Yes. You are correct. Sin = 'missing the mark'. And if you 'miss the mark' of a life of faith, relying on your own merit, or someone else's to pay for your sin, then you have in essence rejected the only thing(faith)/One(Jesus) that can lead you into eternal life. Its not really lost. Its abandoned.

Amen. I lost interest in this post when it seemed to degenerate into conditions of losing salvation other than to quit believing in Jesus. The entire epistle of Hebrews deals with Jews going back to the old Livitical system of sacrafice.

My reason for starting this post was to see if my new found belief in losing salvation would hold up to the scriptures others use to justify their belief of eternal salvation. I wasn't so much interested in seeing if others agreed with me so much as my being able to defend my belief. But it is nice to know others believe as I do.

I hear you. I only keep going sometimes because my heart is for those who are secretly not sure for reason of either not fully coming to faith in Christ, or because they do not understand what a life of faith in Christ really is in freedom.

Salvation is eternal. But we miss the boat when we think that Salvation is here and now. It is...but only by faith. One day we will see Him as He is. But until then we wait patiently. I too find it comforting to know others believe as I do, but do not get discouraged when they do not. And NEVER get too hard headed to the point of judgment or condemnation of others. In fact, when I was first 'getting my feet under me' in the faith, I believed on the flip side of this debate. It was not till I stood back and examined the Scriptures for what they were apart from everyone else's belief, that I really sought after God's wisdom on the topic. Up till that point I was always looking for man's interpretation.

And what you say about defending your belief is right on. If you cannot truly defend your belief then you need to examine it. That is what I truly appreciate about forums like this. It give people the opportunity to talk about what they believe without a lot of physical emotions behind it. I am not saying that if your not able to defend your point of view right off then you are wrong, just that it means you need to dig 'deeper' and examine your faith.

 

[Adstar]

He gives me the choice of obeying Him or disobeying Him. He also warns that although His love for me is there till the end of time, if I allow sin to overtake me after being set free from it, it can, and I will harden my heart to His love in doing so. I will turn to a life of unbelief.

It's not about sin and our ability to avoid it. It is about our trusting In His righteousness, In His Atonement for us. If you think avoidance of sin is the key to everlasting life with God you should indeed be living in fear.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Yes. You are correct. Sin = 'missing the mark'. And if you 'miss the mark' of a life of faith, relying on your own merit, or someone else's to pay for your sin, then you have in essence rejected the only thing(faith)/One(Jesus) that can lead you into eternal life. Its not really lost. Its abandoned.

Not relying on the Messiah Jesus to pay for your sins is the definition of abandoning the faith that saves. You are preaching that we are not to rely on someone else to pay for our sins. That is the rejection of the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus for our sins.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Chris]

Yes. You are correct. Sin = 'missing the mark'. And if you 'miss the mark' of a life of faith, relying on your own merit, or someone else's to pay for your sin, then you have in essence rejected the only thing(faith)/One(Jesus) that can lead you into eternal life. Its not really lost. Its abandoned.

thank you for your reply when I read it without getting too technical remembered there is this one way. i distinctly remember as a teenager my study leader telling me about this unforgivable sin..eek.
i so never wanted to do that, because there goes salvation

 

[Nathan]

It's not about sin and our ability to avoid it. It is about our trusting In His righteousness, In His Atonement for us. If you think avoidance of sin is the key to everlasting life with God you should indeed be living in fear.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Not relying on the Messiah Jesus to pay for your sins is the definition of abandoning the faith that saves. You are preaching that we are not to rely on someone else to pay for our sins. That is the rejection of the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus for our sins.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I hear you. And trust me its not what your reading into on my post. I have often too sit back and have to watch myself with thoughts that lead into 'disbelief' of the work done on the Cross. But what I am referring to is the work done when He rose from the grave. Some people 'forget' that He is alive now, and there is a reason why the 'Gospel' includes the "death, burial, and resurrection"

Rom 6:14-18 "For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness."

2Pe 2:15-20 "Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing, but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness. These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first."


Hbr 10:19-27 "Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

Hbr 10:35-39 "Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. For, "Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay; but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him." But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls."

"If" there were not occasion of a believer 'shrinking' back away from faith, there would be no occasion to even mention it. How many times in the Bible is it mentioned that Satan, or any angel for that matter, can be saved? We have confidence for sure. We have assurance for sure. That is why we can enter the Holy Place now, by the new and living covenant. But suppose this? If a Jew was to come to the temple, go through the rituals of the temple, and then go out and come back latter chewing on a pigs hind quarter. Do you suppose that person really meant what they were doing? Or do you suppose that it was just ritualistic for them, and their heart was not toward God? Do you suppose that if a man or woman allows the sinful desires to creep back into their lives, without restraint, that those sinful desires will not turn their heart toward unbelief and make it just 'ritualistic' faith?

 

[Nathan]

Here's the point. We preserver, by faith. Not by works. We do not claim any merit for our works, but see them as fruit of our faith. Just as Israel was 'tested' after the exodus from Egypt, so too are we 'tested' in our exodus from our Egypt; sin.

1Cr 10:1-12 "For I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play." We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come."


And then we have our 'security' that we rest in, the solid anchor of our soul. That God is in control of everything, and has given unto us all things that pertain to life and godliness, so that we can walk as children of the light and have no fear of the darkness.


1Cr 10:12-14 "Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry."


Some say, "I have faith that God will keep me from sin. I do not have a role in it, if I do then I am 'adding' too His gift". Paul makes it clear that we will not be tempted past OUR ability to endure it. God is faithful to provide a way of escape that WE might choose it instead of pursuing after sin.

 

[Danus]

But with all the things He does for me, He also gives me free will. He gives me the choice of obeying Him or disobeying Him. He also warns that although His love for me is there till the end of time, if I allow sin to overtake me after being set free from it, it can, and I will harden my heart to His love in doing so. I will turn to a life of unbelief. How does that work? I have no clue and I do not want to know...lol. I do think I have had a glimpse though. This is not the time or place to discuss it, but I once found myself going down that road and it scared me to death.

All very well. And you are correct, you have free will. However, even with the free will you have today....there are still things you would NEVER DO, even though you could.

There is a prevailing idea that we are to make this effort to abstain from sin. True? That would be obeying God. But, there are some sins we don't really have to try very hard to not involve ourselves with. ...what ever they are. For example I would not kill or rape a child. I think it's safe to say none of us have to try very heard not to do that. ....but why? Why is that easier to avoid then say....getting drunk, cheating on your taxes, lying....

It's a matter of ones condition. Somethings are clearly wrong while others?...depends on how we see it vs how God sees it.

Our condition is not so black and white. If we have free will, then are we truly free from sin? Or, do we have a choice to chose? If Christ frees us from sin...then what happens to our choice?

However, in the end...once one taste the love of Christ who would leave it? Sure we are to follow in the lord, abstain from sin, but it is not by our efforts that we do so, rather it is by our condition of heart. That is where God works and makes changes. That is the place where we grow in Christ, and that is the place where we are able to avoid some sins, yet move towards others for lack of growth we've yet had.

Claiming Christ does not protect one from sin, as much as it guides one away from sin, but even that is a process driven by the faith of the believer. The problem as I see it, is that some would rather rely on their own efforts to "NOT SIN". Does it work? Not according to scripture, but if you ask some...they are sinless. I find that interesting.

The security of the believer is knowing that we are saved by grace through faith. (Period) And that our "efforts" to that end are worthless ...not our efforts ...but our faith. Big difference.

 

[Danus]

The unforgivable sin- eject/grieve the Holy Spirit. If after accepting salvation you later change your mind about remaining a christian and reject/grieve the holy spirit you may have done this unforgivable sin , and lost salvation through willful rejection. Is that right? bit of a guess on my part. It was the first thing that came to mind regarding reversing salvation.

Well, that would be what some believe yes, despite .....
Philippians 1:6 (New International Version)
6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

I guess being confident is having faith. Some are not confident...(Faith).

 

[Danus]

Amen. I lost interest in this post when it seemed to degenerate into conditions of losing salvation other than to quit believing in Jesus. The entire epistle of Hebrews deals with Jews going back to the old Livitical system of sacrafice.

My reason for starting this post was to see if my new found belief in losing salvation would hold up to the scriptures others use to justify their belief of eternal salvation. I wasn't so much interested in seeing if others agreed with me so much as my being able to defend my belief. But it is nice to know others believe as I do.

Does your faith hold up to the scriptures that say you can be secure in your salvation?

That's the real question. you can't measure that against even your own understanding, much less anyone ealses. Faith is a practice that develps through growth in your relationship with Christ. As it develops one becomes more asured of the work started in them through Christ alone.

 

[Adstar]

Here's the point. We preserver, by faith. Not by works. We do not claim any merit for our works, but see them as fruit of our faith. Just as Israel was 'tested' after the exodus from Egypt, so too are we 'tested' in our exodus from our Egypt; sin.

1Cr 10:1-12 "For I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play." We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come."


And then we have our 'security' that we rest in, the solid anchor of our soul. That God is in control of everything, and has given unto us all things that pertain to life and godliness, so that we can walk as children of the light and have no fear of the darkness.


1Cr 10:12-14 "Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry."


Some say, "I have faith that God will keep me from sin. I do not have a role in it, if I do then I am 'adding' too His gift". Paul makes it clear that we will not be tempted past OUR ability to endure it. God is faithful to provide a way of escape that WE might choose it instead of pursuing after sin.

So you are sinless then??

Cause if God has provided you a way of escape when ever sin tempts then you must be sinless, right?

And if you do not availed yourself of the escape route then you have fallen away from the truth and are doomed, Right?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Nathan]

So you are sinless then??

No. I still sin. At this very moment? I have no clue. There is nothing on my mind, or heart but that can change in an instant.

Cause if God has provided you a way of escape when ever sin tempts then you must be sinless, right?

He provides a way so that I do not have to carry out temptation to its end which is sin. Does that mean I always go the 'good' route? No. I often fall prey to temptation, and sin. But, praise God, when I confess my sins He is faithful and just to forgive me of all my sins and cleanse me from all unrighteousness. So then, at that point...yes I am considered sinless. I guess some people just have faith that God means what He says and does it completely.

And if you do not availed yourself of the escape route then you have fallen away from the truth and are doomed, Right?

Fallen away? Oh no. No, trust me, I know EXACTLY what I am doing when I sin. I know it is wrong, its not the truth, its not the thing I should be doing...I do not fall away from the truth, but rather I see the truth for what it is. There are times when I 'think' I know the right thing to do, then I am 'tempted' to do another. I figure it is 'ok', does not seem that bad, and it does not look harmful. All the while 'missing the mark' of the call of God in my life. Then when I have gone after the temptation, I know for a fact it was not the right thing and indeed was sin.

There are other times when yes, I have sinned knowing that it was sin. Did I 'fall away'? I used to think a person could not 'fall away' and then come back. Is that not what Hebrews says in chapter 6? Then I thought that seeing how that is true, and not a lie, then that means I am not saved, right? Ok, so then that means that I have to 'do' something to keep myself saved, right? No, we know thats not true. Ok, so I sin knowing that its a sin. For example; I lie out my teeth about something that happened.

Am I saved? Did I fall away? This is where a accurate definition of what it means to be a Christian is needed. I do not have the time right now, but if you want to go read my posts on the thread http://www.christianforums.net/f17/differences-giving-holy-spirit-between-ot-nt-31414/index3.html then you could get a better understanding.

The long and the short of it is I am 'saved' from sins power in my life now. And unless I reach a point of complete disbelief in God, udder faithlessness, I cannot 'fall away'. I can sin, but that sin hardens my heart. If a person lets the sin harden their heart to a point of not being able to respond to the Spirit's sanctifying work, then they can reach a point of complete faithlessness. But on the other side, I completely believe that if we "walk by the Spirit, we will not gratify the desires of the flesh."

I am not sure why people try to make it sound like I am completely unable to sin. And I am not sure why people try to make it sound like I sin constantly. And I am not sure why people think that the ability to not sin is of my own freewill. And I am not sure why people think that I cannot follow Christ in truth.

 

[smaller]

No. I still sin. At this very moment? I have no clue. There is nothing on my mind, or heart but that can change in an instant.

He provides a way so that I do not have to carry out temptation to its end which is sin. Does that mean I always go the 'good' route? No. I often fall prey to temptation, and sin. But, praise God, when I confess my sins He is faithful and just to forgive me of all my sins and cleanse me from all unrighteousness. So then, at that point...yes I am considered sinless. I guess some people just have faith that God means what He says and does it completely.

A common misnomer.

No man in the actions of repentence or contrition makes themselves sinless by those actions. Attribution for SIN was taken from Man at the Cross and the price has been paid. What transpires in repentence and contrition is forgiveness by God for EVIL, not 'the creation' of sinless perfection by that confessors actions.

You may feel better, but the presence of indwelling sin, (as you say above which could change in a mere INSTANT,) still remains and still wrestles within, continually.

All believers struggle with this exact matter. Those who transition to sinlessness have forgotten that we remain planted in weakness, corruption, dishonour and in a natural body. Those are PERPETUAL CONDITIONS until we receive our NEW BODY that is not subject to the workings of sin and those other things we are planted into.

Hence the ever pressing need for continual Grace of God in Christ for ALL who adhere to Him, the UNmerited favor of God within our hearts. I would not be trading that for my own actions.

s

 

[Drew]

It's not about sin and our ability to avoid it. It is about our trusting In His righteousness, In His Atonement for us.

There is indeed truth in this, but I think it is quite clear that the Christian has some obligation to "participate" in the working out of his/her salvation. Consider this statement from Paul from Romans 8:

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

I have yet to hear an account that takes this verse seriously, i.e. does not bend its words, that can be reconciled with either "OSAS" or the idea that our salvation is not dependent on how we live.

 

[Danus]

There is indeed truth in this, but I think it is quite clear that the Christian has some obligation to "participate" in the working out of his/her salvation. Consider this statement from Paul from Romans 8:

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

I have yet to hear an account that takes this verse seriously, i.e. does not bend its words, that can be reconciled with either "OSAS" or the idea that our salvation is not dependent on how we live.

To be fair how about we add some simple context to that 1 verse.

Romans 8:9-17 (New International Version)


9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, (Meaning you will die physically because of sin)yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. (The spirit being justified by Christ, not of us) 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.(This is about the relationship we have as believers reminding us again where our salvation comes from)

12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, (Again this is not saying that our efforts to be sinless gain our salavtion, but through our faith only) ....you can read the rest .......14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[a] And by him we cry, "Abba,[b] Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.


The verse you quoted Romans 8:12 has nothing to do against OSAS...NOTHING at all. In fact it's a small part of what OSAS is all about in context. Those who truly believe in Christ through faith are saved ....to the end. Paul describes those folks in the verses all around the verse you quoted. I did not twist one word of that verse to prove it.

 

[Adstar]

No. I still sin. At this very moment? I have no clue. There is nothing on my mind, or heart but that can change in an instant.



He provides a way so that I do not have to carry out temptation to its end which is sin. Does that mean I always go the 'good' route? No. I often fall prey to temptation, and sin. But, praise God, when I confess my sins He is faithful and just to forgive me of all my sins and cleanse me from all unrighteousness. So then, at that point...yes I am considered sinless. I guess some people just have faith that God means what He says and does it completely.



Fallen away? Oh no. No, trust me, I know EXACTLY what I am doing when I sin. I know it is wrong, its not the truth, its not the thing I should be doing...I do not fall away from the truth, but rather I see the truth for what it is. There are times when I 'think' I know the right thing to do, then I am 'tempted' to do another. I figure it is 'ok', does not seem that bad, and it does not look harmful. All the while 'missing the mark' of the call of God in my life. Then when I have gone after the temptation, I know for a fact it was not the right thing and indeed was sin.

There are other times when yes, I have sinned knowing that it was sin. Did I 'fall away'? I used to think a person could not 'fall away' and then come back. Is that not what Hebrews says in chapter 6? Then I thought that seeing how that is true, and not a lie, then that means I am not saved, right? Ok, so then that means that I have to 'do' something to keep myself saved, right? No, we know thats not true. Ok, so I sin knowing that its a sin. For example; I lie out my teeth about something that happened.

Am I saved? Did I fall away? This is where a accurate definition of what it means to be a Christian is needed. I do not have the time right now, but if you want to go read my posts on the thread http://www.christianforums.net/f17/differences-giving-holy-spirit-between-ot-nt-31414/index3.html then you could get a better understanding.

The long and the short of it is I am 'saved' from sins power in my life now. And unless I reach a point of complete disbelief in God, udder faithlessness, I cannot 'fall away'. I can sin, but that sin hardens my heart. If a person lets the sin harden their heart to a point of not being able to respond to the Spirit's sanctifying work, then they can reach a point of complete faithlessness. But on the other side, I completely believe that if we "walk by the Spirit, we will not gratify the desires of the flesh."

I am not sure why people try to make it sound like I am completely unable to sin. And I am not sure why people try to make it sound like I sin constantly. And I am not sure why people think that the ability to not sin is of my own freewill. And I am not sure why people think that I cannot follow Christ in truth.

You said and i quote:

"He gives me the choice of obeying Him or disobeying Him. He also warns that although His love for me is there till the end of time, if I allow sin to overtake me after being set free from it, it can, and I will harden my heart to His love in doing so. I will turn to a life of unbelief."

Your preaching that, If you allow sin to overtake you. that means if you sin. And you do sin Right??? then God will harden your heart and cause you to come to unbelief.

Either our sins cause us to lose salvation. Or they Don't. There is no point trying to have a foot in each camp and sowing confusion and doubt. Either we are forgiven sin and are covered by the Blood of Jesus or Jesus died for nothing and we are still condemed if we Sin.

So what is your stance. Are you saved by having your sins covered by the blood of Jesus or are you saved by your ability to avoid sin.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

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There is indeed truth in this, but I think it is quite clear that the Christian has some obligation to "participate" in the working out of his/her salvation. Consider this statement from Paul from Romans 8:

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

I have yet to hear an account that takes this verse seriously, i.e. does not bend its words, that can be reconciled with either "OSAS" or the idea that our salvation is not dependent on how we live.

Hello Drew.

Could you supply me with the Chapter and verse numbers for that quote. I did a bible search and never found the word obligation in Romans.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days