Self Righteousness

[By Grace]

Abraham did as the LORD commanded him from the beginning, from the first time the Bible mentions his name. So I don't know what you mean by 'after he was declared righteous'.

PLEASE READ THE TEXT Do not read INTO the text. I say that because you are not supporting your views with Scripture in its context, and you roll the definition of a theological word into another. That makes things to be like Jabberwocky, and the explanation of terms seems at times to be like Humpty Dumpty explaining the meaning of "brilig", "toves" and "wabes".

(Go HERE to see exactly what I mean, and NO, I am not attempting to insult you; rather I am giving an example of the effect that mixing definitions can have)

By doing that, and tying to connect non-related and out of context words together, you are not permitting Scripture to speak for itself

The law came after Abraham, but sin was in the world before the law was given. Ro. 5:13 So was Abraham justified by his works? The Bible says, 'death spread to all men because all men sinned.' Ro. 5:12

Here is a perfect example of what I mean you are taking Scriptures out of context. 12 always precedes 13 in numbering, but what you have done is to take a snippet of verse 13, and then added another snippet from verse 12 to create something that is not supported by Scripture. In other words you seem to be creating your own theology, and using pieces of Scripture as a pretext.

Gotta go important stuff to do

 

[JLB]

Go HERE to see exactly what I mean, and NO, I am not attempting to insult you; rather I am giving an example of the effect that mixing definitions can have)

By doing that, and tying to connect non-related and out of context words together, you are not permitting Scripture to speak for itself

Which is exactly what you did when Comparing Romans 4, and the works of the law with James 2, and the obedience of faith.

When I tried to explain that Paul was contrasting the works of the law, with the righteousness apart from the law [Abraham] you stated the following...

REALLY??? Prior to Moses, there was no Law. Therefore there is no basis in Scripture for you to say that the Law existed in the lifetime of Abraham.
Please look AGAIN at the Scripture, and demonstrate that what you claim above is an accurate statement.

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Because there is neither the Law, nor Moses are mentioned. it appears that you may be making things up out of the air. I say that because you have yet to refute what I am stating by providing an answer based on the context of the verse

Again, the works of the law, that Paul contrast's, with the righteousness apart from the law, [faith] in Romans 4, is not the same as the works of obedience that James teaches is a primary principle of the law of faith.

Please stop taking works out of context and applying them to other meanings, which distorts the true meaning of the scripture.


JLB

 

[MarkT]

The Word God did was sending the Son. The condition was that We believe. It's right there in the scripture you posed even.

You also skipped the fact even though Pharaoh was a cracked clay pot.

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
(Rom 9:22)

Pharaoh made his own bed after God endured with him for a very long time.

And you missed what to do if we are cracked pots. vessels of dishonor.

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
(2Ti 2:20-21)

that is our choice, not God's.

Glad I could help.

Jesus doesn't say it is our work. If it was our work, we would be justifying ourselves. If it is our work, then the credit belongs to us.

First I'm talking about the cause of belief, not what belief is. Is belief the work of God or the work of man? If salvation is the work of man, then man doesn't need God. He can decide to be saved or not saved. What of the power of God then; man's power must be greater.

But Ro. 9:18 says, 'So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills'. So salvation belongs to God. And Jesus said we can do nothing on our own John 15:5, and that includes believing if believing is the work of God.

Our choice is to do what is right. As Paul said right before, 'Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity. 2 Tim. 2:19, and immediately after, 'So shun youthful passions and aim at righteousness. 2 Tim. 2:22 What he's saying here is do right so you can be useful to the master of the house. Right before that he says, 'Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.' 2 Tim. 2:15.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Abraham walked in the righteousness of obedience of faith, long before Genesis 15:6.

In other words God considered him as righteous, because Abraham believed in God concerning the promise of a son, and showed this by his obedience to get out and go.

I myself did acts of obedience because of knowledge of the gospel long before I actually got saved.

God promised to Abraham, he would become a great nation, meaning; he would have many children.

Abraham believed and acted in obedience.

Therefore, there was already the work of obedience in Abraham's life concerning the promise of children, of which Abraham showed that he believed by walking in obedience.

...Like my life.
And for both of us, their was a later, specific defining moment of faith in which God actually made me righteous. Apparently, Abraham's occurs in Genesis 15:6 NASB. I can't tell you that definitively, no more than you can say definitively it was not. We only know what the Bible says: He was declared righteous in Genesis 15.

He may have acted righteously before that (like I did in regard to my own justification), but he was declared righteous in Genesis 15. As far as I know--whether it's true or not is not the point--we would be adding to scripture if we insist he was declared righteous before that. All signs in the context of Genesis 15 point to this being the defining moment of justification for Abraham (the oath, etc.).

Jethro said -
That happens when you believe God's word, all by itself, apart from works.

for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; Romans 2:13

Which meaning of 'justified' have you decided Paul is using here? To 'make' one righteous, or to 'show' one righteous? The context of the passage suggest he's using the latter because his whole point is that one can not be justified at all by what they do because we are by nature unrighteous.

Apart from good works? OK

Apart from the works of the law? OK

Apart from obedience?

A justification of righteousness is apart from obedience only in that the obedience part is not what literally solicits God's bestowing of righteousness. But surely, obedience MUST accompany the person who has been made righteous by God through faith in the promise of a Son ("the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous" 1 John 3: NASB). But to say the obedience, that surely must accompany a declaration of righteousness, is what makes you a righteous person before God makes salvation a payment of obligation, which Paul plainly says it is not. He says it's a free gift of grace and mercy that is NOT earned by ANYTHING we do:

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. " (Titus 3:5-7 NASB)

Even the Gospel requires that we "confess with our mouth" The Lord Jesus, apart from believing in our heart.

We know some kind of obedience MUST follow after a person is justified. That is not what is being argued.
The mistake you're making is that the obedience is what God bases the justifying on--the justifying that Paul just got done saying comes from belief in the heart:

"10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. " (Romans 10:10 NASB)

In fact, the scripture says the two things, that bring about our salvation is believing in our heart, together with the work of obedience of confessing with our mouth...

10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9

We know this. A legitimate salvation has both belief AND works. The mistake is to say the works part has any role in MAKING the person righteous. As I've shown, right in the verse you quote Paul says the believing in the heart part does that.

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24

A man is justified by the work of obedience, not by faith only.

Right.
Faith MAKES a person righteous.
Works SHOW a person to have that free gift of righteousness ('righteous people do righteous things, unrighteous people do unrighteous things').

The same word, 'justify', is used for both making a person righteous, and showing a person to be righteous.

From http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1344&t=KJV

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

#1 is what happens when we believe with our heart. #2 happens when what happened in #1 changes our behavior on the outside. The faith that can save is the faith that does both. Faith MUST do both or that faith is the kind of faith that can not save you (like the faith the demons have).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Which is exactly what you did when Comparing Romans 4, and the works of the law with James 2, and the obedience of faith.

When I tried to explain that Paul was contrasting the works of the law, with the righteousness apart from the law [Abraham] you stated the following...

The examples of obedience that James says the church is to do in order to be 'justified' by what they do, and not just by what they believe, are in fact works of the law of Moses.

 

[MarkT]

PLEASE READ THE TEXT Do not read INTO the text. I say that because you are not supporting your views with Scripture in its context, and you roll the definition of a theological word into another. That makes things to be like Jabberwocky, and the explanation of terms seems at times to be like Humpty Dumpty explaining the meaning of "brilig", "toves" and "wabes".

(Go HERE to see exactly what I mean, and NO, I am not attempting to insult you; rather I am giving an example of the effect that mixing definitions can have)

By doing that, and tying to connect non-related and out of context words together, you are not permitting Scripture to speak for itself



Here is a perfect example of what I mean you are taking Scriptures out of context. 12 always precedes 13 in numbering, but what you have done is to take a snippet of verse 13, and then added another snippet from verse 12 to create something that is not supported by Scripture. In other words you seem to be creating your own theology, and using pieces of Scripture as a pretext.

Gotta go important stuff to do

OK

My writing is my writing, my train of thought. I'm not Paul. So if 13 comes before 14 or after 14, if Paul says something and it occurs to me, then I might remind you he said it. It does not mean I am taking his words out of context.

 

[reba]

Message from Admin:
2.4:
" Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice."

We all have different writing abilities , Different strengths /weakness... Some of us have tons of education some dont... In keeping with the 'spirit' of TOS 2.4 please let us yearn/learn to respect each other ... Paul and Peter were different yet both have a strong place in the Scriptures.... The "4 gospels' are not exactly alike yet they are the same...
Our Lord had this to say to us about us...

Joh_13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh_13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

1Cor 13 NIV
4 Love is patient love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

 

[Brother Mike]

Jesus doesn't say it is our work. If it was our work, we would be justifying ourselves. If it is our work, then the credit belongs to us.

First I'm talking about the cause of belief, not what belief is. Is belief the work of God or the work of man? If salvation is the work of man, then man doesn't need God. He can decide to be saved or not saved. What of the power of God then; man's power must be greater.

The Father sent Jesus, then Crucified his son for us. (Work of God)
Being born again "Salvation" (Work of God)
The author and finisher of our faith (Jesus, the Head of the Church)

It's our choice to believe what was done. Many don't, and are lost.
Man still has a choice though to believe or not to believe. Right?

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.' 2 Tim. 2:15.

Also watch out for gutless translations. "Try not to fear" "Do your best" There is no try, we do or we don't do what God said.

blessings.

 

[JLB]

The examples of obedience that James says the church is to do in order to be 'justified' by what they do, and not just by what they believe, are in fact works of the law of Moses.

Abraham was justified by obeying God, long before Moses was born.

The law is not of faith.

and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses. Acts 13:39

from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

And again

Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Abraham was justified by obeying God, long before Moses was born.

For us the measure of righteous obedience is the law of Moses, summarized in "love your neighbor as yourself" (Romans 13:9-10 NASB Galatians 5:14 NASB).

The law is not of faith.

Correct. The way of the law to be made righteous is exactly contrary and opposed to being made righteous through faith in God's promise of a Son. But it is through the righteous requirements of the law that we show that we have the righteousness of God that is given through faith. Why is that so? Because as you know righteous people do righteous things, the law of Moses being the measure of righteous work for the Christian summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18 NASB).

and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses. Acts 13:39

from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

And again

Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20

Paul said it is the doers of the law who show themselves to be "just before God": 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified (Romans 2:13 NASB). James echos this sentiment when he explains that it is the person who considers the orphan and the widow (Deuteronomy 14:28-29 NASB), who does not show favoritism (Leviticus 19:15 NASB), and who helps a brother/ sister in need (Deuteronomy 15:7-8 NASB) who is justified by what they do, showing their faith by what they do.

This has nothing to do with Paul saying that no one can be made righteous before God by works of the law: 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law" (Romans 3:28 NASB)

Being made righteous through faith in Christ, apart from works of the law, makes it so we then uphold, not nullify, the righteous requirements of the law (Romans 3:31 NASB) showing ourselves to have the righteousness of Christ through our faith.

 

[By Grace]

Which is exactly what you did when Comparing Romans 4, and the works of the law with James 2, and the obedience of faith.

Either you or Mark did that originally..

My reply was about that you are bringing two different things together, ansd treating them as if they are the same

When I tried to explain that Paul was contrasting the works of the law, with the righteousness apart from the law [Abraham] you stated the following...

My summary statement was this:
"Because there is neither the Law, nor Moses are mentioned in Romans 4:1-4. it appears that you may be making things up out of the air. I say that because you have yet to refute what I am stating by providing an answer based on the context of the verse."

Again, the works of the law, that Paul contrast's, with the righteousness apart from the law, [faith] in Romans 4,

Show all of us EXACTLY WHERE Paul mentions "the works of the Law" in Romans 4:1-4. Otherwise, many of us here will conclude that you are making stuff up that is NOT SUPPORTED BY THE BIBLE TEXT

is not the same as the works of obedience that James teaches is a primary principle of the law of faith.

Here is another example of you making things up. James uses neither the word "primary" nor the word"principle" so how can you state
"James teaches is a primary principle of the law of faith."? That makes absolutely no sense.

Please stop taking works out of context and applying them to other meanings, which distorts the true meaning of the scripture.

Are you throwing my words back at me to annoy me? From our correspondence so far, I am inclined to believe that you may not know the meaning of the word "context". Therefore I shall provide it:

CONTEXT
noun

1. the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influencing its meaning or effect:
You have misinterpreted my remark because you took it out of context.
2. the set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc.​

from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/context?s=t (emphasis added)

You asked me a question, and I answered, In post 389 I asked you for the courtesy of a similar reply to the question I asked. You have not responded, so I repeat it:

Now it is my turn to ask you a question:

Let me ask you a question, Please respectfully answer this because I an interested in your mind set. "Why is it that you have yet to give any indication that you know the meaning of context, and if you do know that, why is it that you continuously ignore the context of everything I have posted, including the ISBE? Are you somehow afraid to be taught by another person?

 

[reba]

enough of this general rudeness this bickering between Christians over semantics is just plain rude...and self righteous

Your moderators will have the last say closed for moderator review...

 

[Obadiah]

An administrator made a request to stop the bickering which has been ignored. I think that's about all we need on this subject for a while. I'm going to leave the thread closed.