Self Righteousness

[By Grace]

I see the irony and the humor of God in it. That verse is teaching against the very thing that is trying to be promoted.....human works.

AMEN Too bad that they do not have reputation points here!
But that is another discussed and dead issue

 

[Brother Mike]

James, not Paul said that about faith without works

Look at verse 2. Paul is stating a condition contrary to fact, namely Abraham did NOT earn his righteousness through any meritorious conduct.

FIRST Abraham believed, THEN righteousness came. Thar is the unequivocal teaching of Scripture within its context.

Not that I like quoting you, but..................

First Abraham believed, His faith was counted for righteousness. (Edited, ToS 2.4, personal insult. Obadiah.)

Faith without Works, it is dead. Has nothing to do with meritorious conduct. Abraham believed, but no matter what Abraham believed, if He does not act on that, then He really did not believe it. Before He was about to kill Issac, it was then God said, For now I know. You will not withhold anything from me. (Gen 22:12)

Somehow you got it stuck in your head that Works is some grand conduct, and confused by using our own works as apposed to taking action to what we believe God said. There is a very big difference there.

So if it was just Belief alone that Abraham obtained righteousness, then you must also believe the devils are righteous. Because they have faith in God so much, they tremble. They believe in God just like Abraham. The difference is that Abraham acted on that belief in obedience, the devils will not. (James 2:19)

Faith all by itself...is dead.

Dead, dead, and dead............................................ It's dead Jim.

 

[iLOVE]

Faith without love does not work. 1 Corinthians 13:2, NASB James 2:17

 

[JLB]

Who is doing the work here?
Can you understand about what I stated about taking things out of context? I ask because you just did it again. (sigh)

THAT is the main issue, brother.

That's pretty funny, since you replied to my post where I just showed you where you have taken the word "works" out of context...

Here is my quote from the post above.

You have taken the word "works" out of its context.

In this context, Paul is contrasting the "works" of the law, with the law of faith, which as we know, faith without works is dead.

The work that justifies is the work of obedience.

Paul is contrasting the works of the law, with the law of faith.

We know that the primary principle of the law of faith is:

Faith all by itself, if it does not have obedience is dead.

Next time, when discussing the principle of faith, please keep this in mind, and you won't get the "works" of the law, mixed up with the obedience of faith.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Faith without love does not work. 1 Corinthians 13:2, NASB James 2:17

Without the Love of God, a fruit of the Spirit (spirit) There can be no working faith (Gal 5:6)
You can't have that until Born again which takes faith in the Grace.

And the plot thickens.

 

[JLB]

I see the irony and the humor of God in it. That verse is teaching against the very thing that is trying to be promoted.....human works.

Couldn't be further from the truth.

The obedience of faith, is not dead human works.

The obedience of faith is the only thing that justifies.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Look at verse 2. Paul is stating a condition contrary to fact, namely Abraham did NOT earn his righteousness through any meritorious conduct.

Paul is discussing the works of the law vs the law of faith.

Let me ask you a question ?

When did Abraham believe?


JLB

 

[iLOVE]

Without the Love of God, a fruit of the Spirit (spirit) There can be no working faith (Gal 5:6)
You can't have that until Born again which takes faith in the Grace.

And the plot thickens.

Amen.

 

[By Grace]

Paul is discussing the works of the law vs the law of faith.

REALLY??? Prior to Moses, there was no Law. Therefore there is no basis in Scripture for you to say that the Law existed in the lifetime of Abraham.
Please look AGAIN at the Scripture, and demonstrate that what you claim above is an accurate statement.

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
​

Because there is neither the Law, nor Moses are mentioned. it appears that you may be making things up out of the air. I say that because you have yet to refute what I am stating by providing an answer based on the context of the verse

Let me ask you a question ?

ONLY if you answer my questions, because that is the fair thing to do

When did Abraham believe?

Scripture is silent as to the day, or the time of day. It is also silent about any conversion that happened. I suppose that according to Genesis 12, he believed and obeyed God when He told him to flee Ur of the Chaldees

Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
​

Abram did not believe because he first obeyed; he believed because he knew the voice of God and the promises that He made, THEN Abram obeyed.

Now it is my turn to ask you a question:

Let me ask you a question, Please respectfully answer this because I an interested in your mind set. "Why is it that you have yet to give any indication that you know the meaning of context, and if you do know that, why is it that you continuously ignore the context of everything I have posted, including the ISBE? Are you somehow afraid to be taught by another person?

When did Abraham believe?


JLB[/QUOTE]

 

[JLB]

REALLY??? Prior to Moses, there was no Law. Therefore there is no basis in Scripture for you to say that the Law existed in the lifetime of Abraham.
Please look AGAIN at the Scripture, and demonstrate that what you claim above is an accurate statement.

Yes brother, Abraham in this contrast, that Paul is making, represents righteousness,that is obtained by faith, apart from the law of Moses.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there isone God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. 4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[b] 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. Romans 3:28-4:4

The context of the word "works", Romans 4, is "works of the law" which is different than the word "works" in James 2, because as you said, concerning Abraham, the law of Moses was not given yet.

Which is why I say to you, that the works of Romans 4, concerns the "works of the law" , while the works of James 2, is the work of obedience of faith.

JLB

 

[ezra]

Jesus Christ is OUR righteousness 1 Corinthians 1:30 But it is from Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who became God-given wisdom for us--our righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, any thing outside of Christ is as filthy rags Isaiah 64:6 King James Bible
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.Holman Christian Standard Bible
All of us have become like something unclean, and all our righteous acts are like a polluted garment; all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities carry us away like the wind.

 

[JLB]

Jesus Christ is OUR righteousness 1 Corinthians 1:30 But it is from Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who became God-given wisdom for us--our righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, any thing outside of Christ is as filthy rags Isaiah 64:6 King James Bible
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.Holman Christian Standard Bible
All of us have become like something unclean, and all our righteous acts are like a polluted garment; all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities carry us away like the wind.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7


JLB

 

[JLB]

Therefore there is no basis in Scripture for you to say that the Law existed in the lifetime of Abraham.

Please show me where I said: the law existed in the lifetime of Abraham.

JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

Please show me where I said: the law existed in the lifetime of Abraham.

JLB

In post 390 is the most recent.

The context of the word "works", Romans 4, is "works of the law"

 

[JLB]

In post 390 is the most recent.

You are mistaken sir.

There is no phrase in post 390, whereby I stated this:
the law existed in the lifetime of Abraham.

The law of Moses came 430 years after Abraham.

JLB

 

[MarkT]

correct.


Which came AFTER he was declared righteous. Belief is not a "work" it is simply intellectual assent to what is presented.


Indeed


The Law came AFTER Abraham; it was given by Moses. Thus there is an error of chronology in the question.


Please quote accurately, and in context, otherwise there will be a pretextural error:

James 1: 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath​

You can see that Righteousness is not meant by James

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:​

You can see that righteousness is not the topic of Paul in this section


Faith is not the same thing as righteousness Of the 35 times that Paul mentions "gift", only Ephesians 2:8 has "gift and righteousness together. and in Hebrews 11: 4 where it speaks of Abel's righteousness

.
Are you equating temptation with sin? I hope not, but that is a different discussion and a different subject. Let's stay on this subject,OK


We can GROW in righteousness as my tomato plants grow in soil, that is unmistakable, but you are not understanding but it is me who plants the seed in the soil, and later transplants the hardened plants into my garden. In the same way, it is God the Father, Who declared us righteous, based upon our belief in Jesus Christ, and it is Holy Spirit who guides unto sanctification. I believe you may be conflating two terms here. And that is because you are giving partial quotes from Scripture that have no bearing on the subject of righteousness

Genesis 15: 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. ​

No one doubts the truth of these Scriptures, but in the same manner as I described above, there is no mentioning of "righteousness" in any of the quotes directly above. I appreciate your obvious love for Jesus and the Word of God, but it is also important to consider the context of a passage. My Scriptural axiom is 100% true, "any verse taken from its context becomes a pretext"

That is how some misinformed people can "justify suicide" and they begin their justification with the verse saying "Judas went out and hanged himself" and continue along in their errors. Can you understand what I am saying, brother?

Abraham did as the LORD commanded him from the beginning, from the first time the Bible mentions his name. So I don't know what you mean by 'after he was declared righteous'.

The law came after Abraham, but sin was in the world before the law was given. Ro. 5:13 So was Abraham justified by his works? The Bible says, 'death spread to all men because all men sinned.' Ro. 5:12

Faith may not be the same thing as righteousness to the rest of the world, but to those who believe, it counts for the same thing. Salvation through faith is the gift of God. Eph. 2:8 In his letter to the Philippians, Paul speaks of the righteousness from God that depends on faith. Phil. 3:9 So righteousness is implied when we speak of faith. You don't have to see the word to know it is there.

James 1:17
Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.

Paul refers to the free gift of righteousness. Ro. 5:17 God assigns faith. Ro. 12:3 He also gives growth. 1 Cor. 3:6 Faith counts for righteousness.

 

[MarkT]

John 6:29Revised Standard Version (RSV)
29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Belief in the Son of God is the work of God. It is not our doing. Ro. 9:18

 

[Brother Mike]

29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Belief in the Son of God is the work of God. It is not our doing. Ro. 9:18

The Word God did was sending the Son. The condition was that We believe. It's right there in the scripture you posed even.

You also skipped the fact even though Pharaoh was a cracked clay pot.

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
(Rom 9:22)

Pharaoh made his own bed after God endured with him for a very long time.

And you missed what to do if we are cracked pots. vessels of dishonor.

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
(2Ti 2:20-21)

that is our choice, not God's.

Glad I could help.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Abraham was made righteous (justified) by God in Genesis 15:6 when he believed God's promise about a son:

"6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness."

Abraham showed that he was righteous (also called being justified) in Genesis 22:12 when he acted in accordance with the faith he had about God's promise of a son:

"...for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."

Being justified by what you do does not MAKE you righteous before God. That happens when you believe God's word, all by itself, apart from works. After that, what you do SHOWS whether or not you have been made righteous before God by faith in his word. Salvation includes BOTH of these justifications, because, as John says, the person who does not live in righteousness is in fact showing themselves to not have the righteousness of God that comes through faith in the promise of God. That's why James says a so-called faith that is alone can not save. It is a 'faith' that did not, and can not, make a person righteous before God. Paul says the same thing when he says that the faith that justifies is the faith that loves (Galatians 5:6 NASB). James, John, and Paul are all in agreement about this.

Works of righteousness are the expected and obligatory result of having been made righteous by faith in God, like getting wet is the expected and obligatory outcome that must accompany a profession of having been in the pool. The person who isn't wet simply hasn't been in the pool as they claim. So it is with the righteousness of faith--the person who isn't visibly wet on the outside with deeds of righteousness is the person who hasn't received the righteousness of God that comes by faith apart from works.

 

[JLB]

Abraham was made righteous (justified) by God in Genesis 15:6 when he believed God's promise about a son:

"6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness."

Abraham showed that he was righteous (also called being justified) in Genesis 22:12 when he acted in accordance with the faith he had about God's promise of a son:

"...for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."

Being justified by what you do does not MAKE you righteous before God. That happens when you believe God's word, all by itself, apart from works.

Abraham walked in the righteousness of obedience of faith, long before Genesis 15:6.

In other words God considered him as righteous, because Abraham believed in God concerning the promise of a son, and showed this by his obedience to get out and go.

1 Now the Lord had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."
4 So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran. Genesis 12:1-4

Get out of your country,... So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him,

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

God promised to Abraham, he would become a great nation, meaning; he would have many children.

Abraham believed and acted in obedience.

Therefore, there was already the work of obedience in Abraham's life concerning the promise of children, of which Abraham showed that he believed by walking in obedience.

4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:4-6

Abraham continued to believe God about His promise, as God encouraged him and showed him the stars as an example of how many would come from Abraham.


Jethro said -
That happens when you believe God's word, all by itself, apart from works.

for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; Romans 2:13


Apart from good works? OK

Apart from the works of the law? OK

Apart from obedience? Even the Gospel requires that we "confess with our mouth" The Lord Jesus, apart from believing in our heart.

In fact, the scripture says the two things, that bring about our salvation is believing in our heart, together with the work of obedience of confessing with our mouth...

10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9


You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24

A man is justified by the work of obedience, not by faith only.


JLB