Bible Study Separation of Church and State

[Hospes]

It takes a village to raise a child..................just saying.........something to think about!!!

It's rare enough to get two parents to raise their child! Or is that why we're looking to the village?

 

[for_his_glory]

It's rare enough to get two parents to raise their child! Or is that why we're looking to the village?

The village I speak of is the body of Christ that needs to help when others are in need when they can not help themselves.

 

[Hospes]

The village I speak of is the body of Christ that needs to help when others are in need when they can not help themselves.

I certainly agree the members of the body of Christ have the obligation to exercise their gifts to strengthen other members. And their children.

 

[Malachi]

Why did the Religious folk of the day, the Scribes and Pharisees, the Sanhedrin etc.. Why did they have to appeal to their governors to have Christ crucified?

Because they did not have the legal right under Roman law to condemn anyone to death or to execute the punishment. Palestine was a Roman province.

 

[Malachi]

It takes a village to raise a child..................just saying.........something to think about!!!

So they invented "the Global Village" and where did that get us? BTW Christ was rejected in Nazareth but accepted elsewhere. Even his own brothers and sisters questioned His credentials.

 

[ezrider]

Because they did not have the legal right under Roman law to condemn anyone to death or to execute the punishment. Palestine was a Roman province.

I highlighted it for emphasis, but that is the answer I was looking for. Because they did not have the legal right under Roman law. Who today carries that same legal right and authority?

 

[GodsGrace]

I highlighted it for emphasis, but that is the answer I was looking for. Because they did not have the legal right under Roman law. Who today carries that same legal right and authority?

Is this it?
Today the Church and/or the church has the moral right to help the poor.
The State (governments) has the legal right to help the needy because it's the state/government that establishes LAWS regarding same.
For example: You have to qualify for Unemployment Insurance Benefits, Food Stamps, etc.

(it can't be this easy...)

W
P.S. Romans 13:1-7 comes to mind. We DO have to pay our taxes so the govt could do all of the above. ( But this would be a different thread. Did Paul still believe this while Jerusalem was being destroyed and Christians were being persecuted by governments? )

 

[for_his_glory]

So they invented "the Global Village" and where did that get us? BTW Christ was rejected in Nazareth but accepted elsewhere. Even his own brothers and sisters questioned His credentials.

You missed the whole point. The village I am speaking about is the body of Christ that should be doing the reaching out.

 

[ezrider]

Is this it?
Today the Church and/or the church has the moral right to help the poor.
The State (governments) has the legal right to help the needy because it's the state/government that establishes LAWS regarding same.
For example: You have to qualify for Unemployment Insurance Benefits, Food Stamps, etc.

(it can't be this easy...)

Yes, it can be that easy, but that was not the end of the discussion as it pertains to the OP, it is only the beginning. We can agree in this case that the State has the legal right. As Malachi answered, the Scribes and Pharisees did not have legal right under Roman Law. So as to the point of the OP, there was a separation of powers, that which was given unto Rome to rule by law, and that to which the Scribe and Pharisees ministered to.

If we look to Rome as having authority at that time, then we can easily look to Babylon as the point in time that the Kingdom was taken from Israel, and they were made subject to the laws of the kingdoms that ruled over them, which kingdoms were appointed by God to rule for their time. After their captivity in the Land of Babylon, a function of the priesthood was restored, but their kingdom was not restored to them. So at this point it is easy to identify a separation between the Church and State, but what I ask in the OP is does that separation of powers extend back further? Was this construct established within the Kingdom of Israel. What legal authority did the King have and what legal authority was given to the priesthood?

P.S. Romans 13:1-7 comes to mind. We DO have to pay our taxes so the govt could do all of the above. ( But this would be a different thread. Did Paul still believe this while Jerusalem was being destroyed and Christians were being persecuted by governments? )

I do not know why it would need to be a different thread unless you meant to discuss specific government program, then I would agree. But in the context of Romans 13, I do not see why we can not discuss it as it pertains to having legal authority.

Jesus, did not preach against the Roman authority, He said love your enemies; and in the end, he too submitted to the Roman authority.
Likewise Paul pleaded his rights as a Roman citizen to be tried according to Roman Law.

 

[reba]

I hate that Hillary said it.
In a way it's right...

W

Just what i want a village of muslims raising my child..
AS Christians we should be seeing to it our children are raised in a Christian home nurtured in Godly values .. Which in my opinion means NO public schools turn off the TV be with your kids.. dont send them take them to where ever ... be it Sunday school or the little league game

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

When I needed help, the government helped me, not the church.

 

[GodsGrace]

When I needed help, the government helped me, not the church.

The church is not able to help, which has been my point from the beginning.
There are too many needs and it would take too much in both time and money.

W

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The church is not able to help, which has been my point from the beginning.
There are too many needs and it would take too much in both time and money.

W

No, the church can't help because they got their priorities mixed up.
They think of themselves and their luxurious lifestyle is more important then someone's basic needs.
When I say the church, I say both the organization I attended for 11 straight years and the several so called friends we made who suddenly disappeared and were flat broke at the time we needed them.

You can never stick up for a church person or a church organization when it comes to giving.
You either have it in your heart and you give or you don't.
And that tells me a lot about what kind of a Christian you are.

It's funny how many people will tell you it's the right thing to do to give 10% of your income to your local church but then don't have a dime to help you when you are in need.

And you're hearing this from someone who attends church every week.
I won't quit on people just because they have quit on me.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, the church can't help because they got their priorities mixed up.
They think of themselves and their luxurious lifestyle is more important then someone's basic needs.
When I say the church, I say both the organization I attended for 11 straight years and the several so called friends we made who suddenly disappeared and were flat broke at the time we needed them.

You can never stick up for a church person or a church organization when it comes to giving.
You either have it in your heart and you give or you don't.
And that tells me a lot about what kind of a Christian you are.

It's funny how many people will tell you it's the right thing to do to give 10% of your income to your local church but then don't have a dime to help you when you are in need.

And you're hearing this from someone who attends church every week.
I won't quit on people just because they have quit on me.

When you speak of luxurious lifestyle, who do you mean? I hope you mean those big churches that take in a lot of money every year. Swaggart ministries would be one, for example. I watch Daystar a lot and I see that these huge ministries also do a lot of work for people around the world and in different ways. There's one that concentrates on providing pure water for tribes in Africa. Some feed the poor, some provide medical care.

In small churches, I don't see any luxurious living. It seems like their struggling to get along, but they do the best they can.

I agree that friends should help out in time of need. Sooner or later everybody needs something or other. But this is what I was trying to say. Anyone could help out with a one time check for a friend in need, the problem is that it won't be enough. You have to eat every day, the rent or mortgage needs to be paid every month, gas, electric, phone - it's non ending. Friends don't have enough to be able to REALLY help out another. That's why the govt has to step in and help. The world is very different than it was at Jesus' time. More complicated, unfortunately.

I know a guy here (with no family) who works a regular job and gives away all his money for the needy and keeps only what he absolutely needs. How many people are like this? Not enough to make a dent. This is reminding me of the story of the Rich Young Man. Jesus knew he wouldn't be able to go and sell everything and follow Jesus.
We're all like this a little. Hanging on to these worldly things that aren't worth anything. We should be doing more to help each other.

Maybe we should give less to the church and help out people we know more? Is this what you're saying?

W

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

When you speak of luxurious lifestyle, who do you mean? I hope you mean those big churches that take in a lot of money every year. Swaggart ministries would be one, for example. I watch Daystar a lot and I see that these huge ministries also do a lot of work for people around the world and in different ways. There's one that concentrates on providing pure water for tribes in Africa. Some feed the poor, some provide medical care.

In small churches, I don't see any luxurious living. It seems like their struggling to get along, but they do the best they can.

I agree that friends should help out in time of need. Sooner or later everybody needs something or other. But this is what I was trying to say. Anyone could help out with a one time check for a friend in need, the problem is that it won't be enough. You have to eat every day, the rent or mortgage needs to be paid every month, gas, electric, phone - it's non ending. Friends don't have enough to be able to REALLY help out another. That's why the govt has to step in and help. The world is very different than it was at Jesus' time. More complicated, unfortunately.

I know a guy here (with no family) who works a regular job and gives away all his money for the needy and keeps only what he absolutely needs. How many people are like this? Not enough to make a dent. This is reminding me of the story of the Rich Young Man. Jesus knew he wouldn't be able to go and sell everything and follow Jesus.
We're all like this a little. Hanging on to these worldly things that aren't worth anything. We should be doing more to help each other.

Maybe we should give less to the church and help out people we know more? Is this what you're saying?

W

Yes, it's what my wife and I have been doing consistently for about 6 years now.
God has blessed us for it.

 

[reba]

The church is not able to help, which has been my point from the beginning.
There are too many needs and it would take too much in both time and money.

W

let me think does it take more money for the church to do the same thing as the government.?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Idealism.
The church is not idealism, never was.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, it's what my wife and I have been doing consistently for about 6 years now.
God has blessed us for it.

Your reward will be great.

 

[GodsGrace]

let me think does it take more money for the church to do the same thing as the government.?

I've also read Rollo's posts and I think he's saying that we should put our money where our mouth is. Even in a personal way. In fact, it seems like the best way to me. Direct.

But not everyone in the church has this willingness, not everyone will give, some worry only about themselves.
It would take a huge amount of money to help everyone out. I said that the church is doing a lot re fresh cleaning water, food, clothes, education, heath, - in a large scale all over the world.

That's one thing. But, as far as our local church helping everyone out, I think that's pretty impossible.
Take here, for instance. Terrible crises since 2011. Jobs lost and businesses closing every day. They tell us we're nearing the end of the tunnel but no one sees any light. What could our local church do? There is too much need for it to handle.

Am I misunderstanding you?

W

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I've also read Rollo's posts and I think he's saying that we should put our money where our mouth is. Even in a personal way. In fact, it seems like the best way to me. Direct.

But not everyone in the church has this willingness, not everyone will give, some worry only about themselves.
It would take a huge amount of money to help everyone out. I said that the church is doing a lot re fresh cleaning water, food, clothes, education, heath, - in a large scale all over the world.

That's one thing. But, as far as our local church helping everyone out, I think that's pretty impossible.
Take here, for instance. Terrible crises since 2011. Jobs lost and businesses closing every day. They tell us we're nearing the end of the tunnel but no one sees any light. What could our local church do? There is too much need for it to handle.

Am I misunderstanding you?

W

Tell the Vatican to dig into the vaults and share a little of those billions they have stashed.