Seventy Palm Trees and the Man Child

[whirlwind]

On other threads there are discussions about the man child, the witnesses, the seals, the white horse rider and they are all tied together. Here I wanted to open a new thread that would discuss the differences, if indeed there are differences, in the witnesses and the man child (the very elect).

For those that aren't familiar with the term "man child," I associate them as being the very elect of.....

• * Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

We have all been taught of the "two witnesses," of [Revelation 11] but few teach that the "two" are actually two groups. This thread simply brings that fact forward but doesn't discuss that aspect nor will it go into the teaching of the man child. They are for other threads. This topic is concerned with how are the two, the witnesses and the man child, connected or are they the same? Who knows, perhaps the "two witnesses" are (1) the witnesses and (2) the man child.

Historical types given by our Father are for us to take as examples "and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." [1 Corinthians 10:11] So, what types are we given concerning the man child?

• * Exodus 15:22-27 So Moses brought Israel from the Red Sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; (which means a wall, this wall separating Egypt/the world, from them) and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water. And when they came to Marah, they could not drink of the waters of Marah, for they were bitter: therefore the name of it was called Marah. And the People murmured against Moses, saying, "What shall we drink?" And he cried unto the LORD; and the LORD shewed him a tree, which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet: There He made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there He proved them, And said, "If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in His sight, and wilt give ear to His commandments, and keep all His statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee." And they came to Elim, (meaning, strong trees) where were twelve wells of water, and threescore and ten palm trees: and they encamped there by the waters.

What that passage means to me, being a shadow, a type of the end of this age is.....Moses, a type of Christ, brings His chosen…Israel, across the Red Sea. Across to the other side. Are they in the promised land? No, not yet. These are not the very elect that are of the first resurrection [Revelation 20:6] but they are the righteous. They are shown in those three days what it is to be without Christ for they "found no water." Then, when water was found, it was bitter…it wasn't His true life giving water. Then, they are shown a tree…The Tree of Life!

God tells them that if they follow certain rules they will be separated from the Egyptians (those of the world, those without Him). So then…."they came to *Elim," which means "strong trees." Those strong trees are the man child and they will teach them the discipline of His statutes and commandments. I believe this is a shadow of the millennium, when "He proved them." There are seventy palm trees (strong trees) and twelve wells of water….

• * Isaiah 12:3 Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation."
  
  * Ezekiel 44:23 And they shall teach My People the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

• * The Biblical number twelve means....governmental perfection
  
  Number seventy means ....a combination of the two perfect numbers, seven and ten, meaning perfect spiritual order carried out with all spiritual power and significance. Both spirit and order are greatly emphasized. ~ Numbers in Scripture - Bullinger
  
  * Elim is generally identified by the best authorities with "Wady Garundle," about halfway down the shore of the Gulf of Suez. A few palm trees still remain, and the water is excellent. – Smith's Bible Dictionary.

What or who are the twelve wells and the seventy palm trees?

 

[whirlwind]

Part 2.............


What, or who, are the seventy (threescore and ten) palm trees symbolic of? They, and the twelve wells of water, will be waiting for the other children of God in the wilderness of end times and in the millennium. The clues we get from Scripture are....

• * Numbers 11:16-17 And the LORD said unto Moses, "Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the People, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee. And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the People with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.
  
  * 11:24 And Moses went out, and told the People the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the People, and set them round about the tabernacle

Moses is a type of Christ. In the end of days it is He that "knowest" the ones that will follow Him...in all the ways He will require of them. This historic event is our example of what will be. This was how the Sanhedrin was formed but it speaks of a future event. Joel writes of that time....

• * Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
  
  * 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

 

[whirlwind]

Part 3..............



What other references are we given of the seventy palm trees/men children?

• * Genesis 46:27 And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, were two souls: all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, were threescore and ten.

Two and seventy? The seventy are the man child, the "palm trees," while the two, the two sons of Joseph, the "two souls," represent the two witnesses...of which there are many. They are the candlesticks and olive trees of [Zechariah 4]. The "twelve wells" are the "officers," [Num. 11:16-17 above] over the palm trees (seventy men children) of end times.

• * Deuteronomy 10:22 Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and ten persons; and now the LORD thy God hath made thee as the stars of heaven for multitude.

The "fathers" are the officers, the twelve wells, that went to Egypt with the seventy palm trees. The twelve fathers may well be the spirits of the prophets or disciples and the seventy palms will draw "living water," truth, from them as they feed (teach) His children (Israel, the woman) in the wilderness.

• * Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

• * Exodus 1:5-6 And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already. And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.
  
  
  * Genesis 50:3 And forty days were fulfilled for him; for so are fulfilled the days of those which are embalmed: and the Egyptians mourned for him threescore and ten days.

They mourned a day for each of the men children that will be killed.

 

[whirlwind]

Part 4............



Joseph, another type of our Savior, and the seventy souls (of whom the seventy palm trees are symbolic) went to Egypt and joined Joseph. The seventy are of Jacob/Israel and they are the chosen ones, "the remnant whom the Lord shall call," to meet Joseph/Christ, and his two sons...the two witnesses, in Egypt...which is symbolic of the world. Joseph/Christ was crucified, "all his brethren," the seventy men children, and "all that generation," meaning the last generation, will all die. All flesh will perish and some will spiritually live while others must be taught during the millennium to see if they will or will not live eternally. Again, the seventy are the man child, the very elect, that will testify....

• * Revelation 11:7-8 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

They testify with the Spirit He "pours upon" them. And, as Christ was with the three Hebrew "men child-(ren)," Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, He will be with the seventy men children of end times. He was crucified in the great city and they will be slain in that same great city. That testimony will bring many, many souls to our Father and they will be as the "stars of heaven."

• * Mark 13:9-11 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

 

[whirlwind]

Part 5.............


Our Father always shows us the future by the events of the past. Therein...."Behold, I have foretold you all things," [Mark 13:23] can be found. And here...one of the examples is given of the future event of the seventy palm trees, man child, being slain and....who does it.

• * Judges 8:30 And Gideon had threescore and ten sons of his body begotten: for he had many wives.

Gideon, also called Jerubbaal, is a type of Christ. The seventy sons are of "his body" or...of the body of Christ. They are His firstfruits...as Christ is The Firstfruit the seventy are the firstfruits, the man child of end times. Israel, all twelve tribes, are His "wives." From one of Gideon's "concubines" came another son....Abimelech, meaning "father of the king." That is thought to be a title for he is also called Achish, meaning "angry." As Gideon is a type for Christ....his son Abimelech is a type for the antichrist. The birth of Gideon's son Abimelech is written of in....

• * Judges 8:31 And his concubine that was in Shechem, she also bare him a son, whose name he called Abimelech

.

• * Concubine - The difference between wife and concubine was less marked among the Hebrews than among us. A concubine would either be (1) a Hebrew girl bought of her father; (2) a Gentile captive taken in war; (3) a foreign slave bought; or (4) a Canaanitish woman, bond or free. The rights of the first two were protected by the law but the third was unrecognized and the fourth prohibited. ~ Smith's Bible dictionary.

So, to see which of the concubines produced Abimelech, a type for the anti-christ, we should discover what or where Shechem is, for it was her home.

Shechem means "back or shoulder." Shechem was a son of Hamor, the chieftain of the Hivite settlement of Shechem at the time of Jacob's arrival. It was he, Shechem, that raped Dinah, the daughter of Jacob and Leah. Because of that "two of the sons of Jacob...slew all the males," including Hamor and Shechem. [Genesis 34] From that beginning....is the city of Shechem. What of it today?

• * It is an important city in central Palestine thirty-four miles north of Jerusalem and seven miles southeast of Samaria. It's present name is Nablus....it is an ISLAMIC CITY. After the death of Gideon, Abimelech, induced the Shechemites to revolt from the Hebrew commonwealth and elect him as king. In revenge for his expulsion, after a reign of three years, Abimelech destroyed the city and "sowed the ground with salt." This is the same place the ten tribes renounced the house of David, and transferred their allegiance to Jeroboam and for a time, Shechem became the capital of this kingdom. From the time of the origin of the Samaritans, the history of Shechem blends with the Samaritan people and is called Sychar which is where the Savior conversed with the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well. Today, the Mohammedans make up the bulk of the population. ~ Smith's Bible Dictionary

There you see the story of anti christ and what he will do given in the historical story of Abimelech. He will cause God's children to transfer their allegiance to him, he will sit as king (the fake king) and he will destroy the city. The concubine of Gideon that produced Abimeleh/Achish was....a Caanitish or Hivite woman and was therefore....prohibited. Of those people it is written....

• * Exodus 23:27-28 I will send My fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee. And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee.
  
  * 23:32-33 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against Me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee."

 

[whirlwind]

Part 6...........

• * Judges 9:1 And Abimelech the son of Jerubbaal went to Shechem unto his mother's brethren, and communed with them, and with all the family of the house of his mother's father, saying

,


Knowing who the brethren of his mother was/is and where she was from....I wonder who her "father" was/is? The same father that instructs his children to blow themselves and innocent people to smithereens? The same father that instructs his sons to fly airplanes into towers and kill more innocents. Interestingly, two towers are associated with Abimelech in Judges 9.

• * Malachi 4:5-6 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

• * Judges 9:2-3 Speak, I pray you, in the ears of all the men of Shechem, Whether is better for you, either that all the sons of Jerubbaal, which are threescore and ten persons, reign over you, or that one reign over you? remember also that I am your bone and your flesh. And his mother's brethren spake of him in the ears of all the men of Shechem all these words: and their hearts inclined to follow Abimelech; for they said, "he is our brother."

Abimelech/anti christ, of the same family as the Shechemites, asks if they really want to be ruled by the seventy/Israelites. Well, we all know how that went....they made their decision and it remains so today.

• * 9:4-5 And they gave him threescore and ten pieces of silver out of the house of Baal-berith, wherewith Abimelech hired vain and light persons, which followed him. And he went unto his father's house at Ophrah, and slew his brethren the sons of Jerubbaal, being threescore and ten persons, upon one stone: notwithstanding yet Jotham the youngest son of Jerubbaal was left; for he hid himself.

Abimelech/anti christ went into the house of his father, Gideon/Christ. We believers are the house he will enter, he has entered already. He slays many today with deception and false doctrine and that spiritual slaying is far worse than what will physically happen to the seventy (palm trees/men children/very elect)....during his great tribulation.

Jotham, the youngest son that escaped, cursed the men that killed his brothers through a parable. [Judges 9:7-20] In it he said....

• * 9:18 And ye are risen up against my father's house this day, and have slain his sons, threescore and ten persons, upon one stone, and have made Abimelech, the son of his maidservant, king over the men of Shechem, because he is your brother;)
  
  
  * 9:24 That the cruelty done to the threescore and ten sons of Jerubbaal might come, and their blood be laid upon Abimelech their brother, which slew them; and upon the men of Shechem, which aided him in the killing of his brethren.

All were killed on one stone! In the future will that literally be in one place or is that "one stone" symbolic of something? They will be slain in the great city where Christ was crucified...spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. So, the stone is in the great city. As Christ is the Chief Corner Stone, our Rock...Satan is the rock/stone the man child will be slain upon....which are in many different places as the great city is worldwide.

• * Deuteronmy 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect: For all His ways are judgment: A God of truth and without iniquity, Just and right is He.
  
  * 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, Even our enemies themselves being judges.

 

[Joe67]

whirlwind,

The dragon and the beast from the sea in Revelation 12 and 13 have 7 heads and 10 horns.

Judaism had a 7 day weekly worship cycle, a 10 commandments and a 10% tithe, like the crown on the heads of the dragon and on the horns of the beast.

Joe

 

[Benoni]

What that passage means to me, being a shadow, a type of the end of this age is.....Moses, a type of Christ, brings His chosen…Israel, across the Red Sea. Across to the other side. Are they in the promised land? No, not yet. These are not the very elect that are of the first resurrection [Revelation 20:6] but they are the righteous. They are shown in those three days what it is to be without Christ for they "found no water." Then, when water was found, it was bitter…it wasn't His true life giving water. Then, they are shown a tree…The Tree of Life!

Moses is a type of God’s Elect; the children of Israel are not.

Psalm 103:7 He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel.

Moses knew God in a very intimate and anointed way; not like the children of Israel who knew only God’s acts. The blind lead the blind in religion today; they know only the acts… God never calls systems; God calls people and anoints them.

Just because you are heir to salvation does not make you the elect.
Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) these are all believers.

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The overcomers are God's elect.

The two witness is the Old Testament and the New Testament without them all truth is confirmed.

I think a better example of God’ elect would be Joseph and Benjamin; everyone agrees that Joseph is a type for Jesus; but Joseph had ten half brothers brother's born of maid servants and one full brother.

Joseph would do nothing until they first brought his full brother to Egypt.

 

[Benoni]

The beast is are carnal Adamic nature; it is the worst beast the world has ever known. you have it, I have it, Hitler had it and so did George Washington.

 

[whirlwind]

Conclusion......

This thread is to ask the question....what is, or is there, a difference in the man child and the two witnesses? Are they simply different titles for the same beings or are they, as I believe, separate? The man child is of them and yet set apart for a different purpose. All are the two witnesses but not all are the man child. Add into this mix...the two groups of the 144,000. For one of the groups is the two witnesses[/u].

• * Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. (7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

This group of 144,000 are the firstfruits, the two witnesses.

• * Revelation 14:1-3 And I looked, and lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hunded forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
  
  * 14:4-5 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

This group of 144,000 and the great multitude I see as the "woman" that "fled into the wilderness." They had to be sealed before the end....so, they were for a time being misled. From them came the man child, those that fed them...causing them to be sealed.

• * Revelation 7:2-4 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
  
  * 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (13-14) And one of the elders answered, saying, unto me, "What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?" And I said unto him. "Sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Jesus refers to the two witnesses and the man child in......

• * Revelation 2:8-11 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; 'These things saith the First and the Last, Which was dead, and is alive; I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty (but thou art rich), and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.'
  
  [list:18rp6zah]Daniel 1:12-15 "Prove thy servants, I beseech thee, ten days; and let them give us pulse to eat, and water to drink. Then let our countenances be looked upon before thee, and the countenance of the children that eat of the portion of the king's meat: and as thou seest, deal with thy servants." So he consented to them in this matter, and proved them ten days. And at the end of ten days their countenances appeared fairer and fatter in flesh than all the children which did eat the portion of the king's meat.

[/list:u:18rp6zah]

The church of Philadelphia is also of the two witnesses, firstfruits, but they are told that they will be kept from the hour of temptation and it isn't written that they will be be tried in prison or slain. To "some of those" of the church of Smyrna, which I believe are the man child, will face Satan and ultimately....death. By overcoming - not failing the ten day proving, they will be slain but will receive their crown and "not be hurt of the second death."

• * Revelation 3:7-9 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; 'These things saith He That is Holy, He That is True, He That hath the key of David, He That openeth, and no man shutteth, and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Is the number seven, or seventy, or seven hundred, or seven thousand a literal number of the man child? Or, as seven means "spiritual perfection," is it the perfect number of souls He chooses to fulfill the role of the man child?

• * Romans 11:4-5 But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal." Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
  
  * Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before His face into every city and place, whither He Himself would come. (17) And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, "Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through Thy name."

From the scriptures gathered on this subject I believe we are shown that the man child is represented by the seventy (palm trees, disciples, reserved men, etc. which are types for them.) and are of and yet separate from the other witnesses.

 

[Ret]

Part 3..............

What other references are we given of the seventy palm trees/men children?

• * Genesis 46:27 And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, were two souls: all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, were threescore and ten.

Two and seventy? The seventy are the man child, the "palm trees," while the two, the two sons of Joseph, the "two souls," represent the two witnesses...of which there are many. They are the candlesticks and olive trees of [Zechariah 4]. The "twelve wells" are the "officers," [Num. 11:16-17 above] over the palm trees (seventy men children) of end times.

A bit strange for the 'two witnesses' to be the grandsons of - priest of Egypt! ...

• Gen 41:50 And unto Joseph were born two sons before the years of famine came,
  which Asenath the daughter of Poti-pherah priest of On bare unto him. KJV

 

[Benoni]

14:4-5 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins

.

This speaks of them not being defiled by the religious harlot system.

 

[Benoni]

Slain is not phyical death; but spiritual death in other words the second death

"The first Adam died to God and righteousness, and became alive unto sin. The last Adam died unto sin (Rom. 6:10), and liveth unto God, and so fulfilleth all righteousness.

The first made all men sinners, the last makes all men righteous.

The lives and the deaths of the two Adams are thus greatly contrasting the one to the other.

The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality. Transformed from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind, which is life and peace, which transformation is wrought by a dying out to the one realm, to come alive to the higher realm.

Because -- the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe.

Death came as an enemy, the fruitage of an act of disobedience that turned man away from God and into the realm of carnality, minding self and flesh.

Now God makes death overcome itself. It is by death that death is rendered powerless, and there arises an upspringing, a new life. It takes death to destroy death, and thus Christ 'did taste death for every man' --'that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage' (Heb. 2:9, 14-15). Since we are all under the effects of the first death, it is appointed unto us to die once more -- not physical death, we are already in a state of mortality -- but now a dying out to this present death state. We conquer this death of the carnal mind by dying to it -- only God could use such a process bringing victory, but praise God, lie is destroying the first death with the second death"

 

[Benoni]

Like I said in my other post a better example of God’ elect would be Joseph and Benjamin; everyone agrees that Joseph is a type for Jesus; but Joseph had ten half brothers brother's born of maid servants and one full brother.

Joseph would do nothing until they first brought his full brother to Egypt.

 

[whirlwind]

Part 3..............

What other references are we given of the seventy palm trees/men children?

• * Genesis 46:27 And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, were two souls: all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, were threescore and ten.

Two and seventy? The seventy are the man child, the "palm trees," while the two, the two sons of Joseph, the "two souls," represent the two witnesses...of which there are many. They are the candlesticks and olive trees of [Zechariah 4]. The "twelve wells" are the "officers," [Num. 11:16-17 above] over the palm trees (seventy men children) of end times.

A bit strange for the 'two witnesses' to be the grandsons of - priest of Egypt! ...

• Gen 41:50 And unto Joseph were born two sons before the years of famine came,
  which Asenath the daughter of Poti-pherah priest of On bare unto him. KJV

This Pharoah and his court (priest included) were not of the Egyptian race. They were Shemitic. I always wondered....why would God allow Joseph to marry a Gentile and their sons begin two of the tribes of Israel when He had very explicit laws against that?

In the time of Joseph there were two pharoah's, one of upper and one of lower Egypt, the dividing line being the Pyramid of Giza. Joseph's pharaoh was Apepi, a "Shepherd King, also termed a "Hyksos King." The following is some of the information I found about them (I didn't make a note of where but it sounds like Wiki).

• * They were in Egypt (1850-1550BC) and moved about freely. The held Egypt for five hundred and eleven years and ruled for one hundred years with peace and prosperity. They introduced the compound bow, bronze working, horse and chariot, baattering ram. They introduced a new breed of cattle, new vegetables and fruits, improved linen and pottery and an improved vertical loom and pottery wheel.
  
  * Some say "Shepherd Kings" is a mistranslation as the Egyptian race will not raise cattle. (This is one of the clues to their not being Egyptian by race...they are of Egypt by geological location only.)
  
  * They were allies of Amorites and Hurrians. They worshipped one God - Set/Seth. They were Shematic (of Noah) and therefore were Adamic. Joseph ruled under one of these kings and married a daughter of Potiporah, a priest.

All this had to be in God's plan to establish the twelve tribes. After this time, in Gen. 41:14-37, the next Pharoah "knew Joseph not" and the Israelites became slaves to the Paraoh of that time.

In the land of Goshen, lower Egypt, there are ancient inscriptions showing Shemitic people there but no tombs have been found. Perhaps their bones were taken out of Egypt as those of Joseph?

The Biblical clue to the Pharoah not being of the Egyptian race is....

• * Genesis 46:6-7 And Pharaoh spake unto Joseph, saying, "Thy father and thy brethren are come unto thee: The land of Egypt is before thee; in the best of the land make thy father and brethren to dwell; in the land of Goshen let them dwell: and if thou knowest any men of activity among them, then make them rulers over my cattle." And Joseph brought in Jacob his father, and set him before Pharaoh: and Jacob blessed Pharaoh.

That's about all I have been able to find about them...not a great deal of history is out there, or at least, I haven't found much. Let me know if you come across anything.

 

[whirlwind]

14:4-5 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins

.

This speaks of them not being defiled by the religious harlot system.

I agree. :yes

 

[Benoni]

The problem with Egypt it is always a type of the world/ bondage.

Genesis 35:17And it came to pass, when she (Rachel) Type of church realm) was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also. 18And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

19And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.

Notice the church realm Rachel totally rejected the child Benjamin and named him Benoni (son of my sorrow); because when he was born she died; but no his Father change his name to Benjamin.

Rachel died and never made it to Bethlehem (House of bread) some translations will point this out that she came short of Bethlehem.

Now this I find interesting; for what you see here is more then meets the letter that killeth. Rachel had two sons; Joseph and Benjamin.

If Joseph is a type of Christ which has been proclaimed though out most of Christianity; who is Benjamin; the younger full brother.

Note there were 10 half brothers that tried to kill Joseph (10 speaks of the law/ 12 Devine government).

Joseph would do nothing for his half brothers in Eqypt until Benjamin was brought to him in Egypt or the world.


Benjamin also recevived a silver cup and five (grace) changes of raiment.

Genesis 45:22
To all of them he gave each man changes of raiment; but to Benjamin he gave three hundred pieces of silver, and five changes of raiment

Gen. 44: 12And he searched, and began at the eldest, and left at the youngest: and the cup was found in Benjamin's sack
Benjamin is the manchild; the overcomer

Part 3..............

What other references are we given of the seventy palm trees/men children?

• * Genesis 46:27 And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, were two souls: all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, were threescore and ten.

Two and seventy? The seventy are the man child, the "palm trees," while the two, the two sons of Joseph, the "two souls," represent the two witnesses...of which there are many. They are the candlesticks and olive trees of [Zechariah 4]. The "twelve wells" are the "officers," [Num. 11:16-17 above] over the palm trees (seventy men children) of end times.

A bit strange for the 'two witnesses' to be the grandsons of - priest of Egypt! ...

• Gen 41:50 And unto Joseph were born two sons before the years of famine came,
  which Asenath the daughter of Poti-pherah priest of On bare unto him. KJV

This Pharoah and his court (priest included) were not of the Egyptian race. They were Shemitic. I always wondered....why would God allow Joseph to marry a Gentile and their sons begin two of the tribes of Israel when He had very explicit laws against that?

In the time of Joseph there were two pharoah's, one of upper and one of lower Egypt, the dividing line being the Pyramid of Giza. Joseph's pharaoh was Apepi, a "Shepherd King, also termed a "Hyksos King." The following is some of the information I found about them (I didn't make a note of where but it sounds like Wiki).

• * They were in Egypt (1850-1550BC) and moved about freely. The held Egypt for five hundred and eleven years and ruled for one hundred years with peace and prosperity. They introduced the compound bow, bronze working, horse and chariot, baattering ram. They introduced a new breed of cattle, new vegetables and fruits, improved linen and pottery and an improved vertical loom and pottery wheel.
  
  * Some say "Shepherd Kings" is a mistranslation as the Egyptian race will not raise cattle. (This is one of the clues to their not being Egyptian by race...they are of Egypt by geological location only.)
  
  * They were allies of Amorites and Hurrians. They worshipped one God - Set/Seth. They were Shematic (of Noah) and therefore were Adamic. Joseph ruled under one of these kings and married a daughter of Potiporah, a priest.

All this had to be in God's plan to establish the twelve tribes. After this time, in Gen. 41:14-37, the next Pharoah "knew Joseph not" and the Israelites became slaves to the Paraoh of that time.

In the land of Goshen, lower Egypt, there are ancient inscriptions showing Shemitic people there but no tombs have been found. Perhaps their bones were taken out of Egypt as those of Joseph?

The Biblical clue to the Pharoah not being of the Egyptian race is....

• * Genesis 46:6-7 And Pharaoh spake unto Joseph, saying, "Thy father and thy brethren are come unto thee: The land of Egypt is before thee; in the best of the land make thy father and brethren to dwell; in the land of Goshen let them dwell: and if thou knowest any men of activity among them, then make them rulers over my cattle." And Joseph brought in Jacob his father, and set him before Pharaoh: and Jacob blessed Pharaoh.

That's about all I have been able to find about them...not a great deal of history is out there, or at least, I haven't found much. Let me know if you come across anything.

 

[Joe67]

The beast is are carnal Adamic nature; it is the worst beast the world has ever known. you have it, I have it, Hitler had it and so did George Washington.

Benoni,

I hope this word concerning the beast is swallowed, belched back up, and chewed some more.

Sin has residence in our flesh and will have until the body is redeemed. This is not an excuse for sinning. Grace is greater than the law of sin in our flesh.

The fear of the Lord will keep us from sinning. But if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, even Jesus Christ. The Father will respond to Jesus' requests rather than the prosecutor who is accusing us before the court.

If we are not ashamed of Jesus and confess him before men, then he will confess us before the angels and the Father. The Father has given Jesus greater authority than the highest angel, even the accusing angel. Jesus' word is subject only to the Father.

Joe

 

[Benoni]

Excuse for sinning; are you saying we do not sin?

I am a slave to sin and without the blood of Jesus I would be totally lost.

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rising up out of the sea." The sea-- bespeaks the mass of humanity, out of which rises the bestial systems which have placed their mark upon "ALL, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond." The fact is every creature bears this mark of the bestial nature, until such a time as the cross cancels out the old Adamic nature, and we are born anew with the Christ nature, to bear THE MARK OF GOD, being partakers of the divine nature, and conformed to the image of The Son.

The Greek word used here for "mark" is "charagma." Eight times, and all in the book of Revelation, it is translated as "mark," and means: an engraving, an impressed mark. Then once it is given as "graven," in Acts 17:29, and it is in this latter reference that we find the explanation or key as to what the MARK involves in its relationship to man, for this mark is brought about by ART and by MAN'S DEVICE.

"For as much then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, GRAVEN by art and man's device."

The Greek word for "art" is techni" meaning: art, skill, craft, technology; and thus speaks of the work of the hands, or handiwork, and has its correlation to that which is received in "the right hand," as spoken of in Revelation.

The word "devices" is from the Greek "enthumesis" meaning: INWARD THINKING, or inner thought, which deals with our mental activity, and pertains to the forehead.

Thus we have the ENGRAVING BY HANDIWORK, and the CONTROLLING OF OUR THINKING. That which would seek to place its image upon us, dealing with the work of our hands, and the brainwashing of our minds, to think according to its nature and purpose.

Pursuing this a bit further, we find another Greek word closely akin, it is "charakter", translated as "express image." Hebrews 1:3, "Who being the brightness of glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE of His person..." Speaking, of course, of Christ Jesus, and then by extension, of His anointed ones who partake of His divine nature and are conformed to His image, so as to also become expressions, or manifestations of the substance of God, as revealed through His, and our character. Thus, the MARK speaks of that handiwork and the inward thinking which brings forth an expression of character in line with the very source from which the mark comes. Either we will express the character of God, or the character of the bestial system of this world. It is not speaking only of an outward form, which could be covered with a masquerade for a time, but it refers to that INNER QUALITY OF

CHARACTER WHICH IS BEING DEVELOPED IN US, which in due time shall be revealed, for "the day shall declare it."

The "mark of the beast" is the direct opposite to the "MARK OF GOD," and is an imprint of the nature and character of this world's bestial system. The challenge to OVERCOME this mark of the bestial has been with us a long time-- ever since "The Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to KEEP (guard) it." (Genesis 2:15).

There was a beast waiting to place its mark upon the Adam. "The serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made." (Genesis 3:1 ). And in Revelation we again have this charge to guard against the beast, and the system which it represents.

We find that the IMPRINT was made when Eve responded to the serpent's argument, which caused her to "take of the fruit," which had been forbidden her. Immediately the mark was in her forehead, and then in her hand. Adam joined her in this receiving of the mark. And having taken the imprint-- they began to manifest the nature, character of the bestial, in selfish, rebellious, minding the flesh behavior.

In Revelation, again the hand and the mind are involved with the mark of the beast-- the influence that causes one to think and act according to the ways of the world.

It is this flesh nature that identifies us with this world's carnality. "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, sedition, heresies, envying, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: - they that do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." But then in contra-distinction to such negativism, we find that the new Christ nature bears a far different imprint, for "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." (Galatians 5:19-23). O, to bear the mark of God!

Not only is the bestial mark stamped upon the nature of man, to influence his thinking, and his handiwork, but we live under the mark of the beast by living in this commercialized world order. "That no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." If we buy a car, a home, clothes, food, pay taxes, etc. it is all under the mark of the beast. Whether we use a barter system, or silver coins, we have to do business according to our culture and order of society.

The name, nature, character of the beast touches every facet of our natural life. Yet Jesus had no trouble with this, and He instructed the people to "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." (Mark 12:17). So when faced with the demand for tribute money, He said to Peter, "Lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for Me and thee." (Matthew 17:27). He used the money of the system to pay the tribute of the system, and in doing so, He made sure that no one could say He owed them anything. Even though HE TRULY BELONGED TO A DIFFERENT ORDER, THE HEAVENLY, yet He submitted to the present order, while He maintained a PURE SPIRIT un- touched by that order. He did not rebel against that society, for such rebellion would have defiled Him, having partaken of the world's spirit of rebellion. He gave the system its due, and therefore was free of any obligation to it. Ray Prinzing

The beast is are carnal Adamic nature; it is the worst beast the world has ever known. you have it, I have it, Hitler had it and so did George Washington.

Benoni,

I hope this word concerning the beast is swallowed, belched back up, and chewed some more.

Sin has residence in our flesh and will have until the body is redeemed. This is not an excuse for sinning. Grace is greater than the law of sin in our flesh.

The fear of the Lord will keep us from sinning. But if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, even Jesus Christ. The Father will respond to Jesus' requests rather than the prosecutor who is accusing us before the court.

If we are not ashamed of Jesus and confess him before men, then he will confess us before the angels and the Father. The Father has given Jesus greater authority than the highest angel, even the accusing angel. Jesus' word is subject only to the Father.

Joe

The beast is are carnal Adamic nature; it is the worst beast the world has ever known. you have it, I have it, Hitler had it and so did George Washington.

Benoni,

I hope this word concerning the beast is swallowed, belched back up, and chewed some more.

Sin has residence in our flesh and will have until the body is redeemed. This is not an excuse for sinning. Grace is greater than the law of sin in our flesh.

The fear of the Lord will keep us from sinning. But if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, even Jesus Christ. The Father will respond to Jesus' requests rather than the prosecutor who is accusing us before the court.

If we are not ashamed of Jesus and confess him before men, then he will confess us before the angels and the Father. The Father has given Jesus greater authority than the highest angel, even the accusing angel. Jesus' word is subject only to the Father.

Joe

 

[whirlwind]

On another thread (Seven Seals) the topic of the man child is being discussed and it made me realize another distinction in the man child and the 144,000, or the two witnesses. God shows us the difference:

• * Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings AND priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
  
  * Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings AND priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The "kings" shall follow The King in every way. They are the "seventy palm trees" that shall be slain. Then, we have....the priests, the rest of the two witnesses.

I wonder, in the following verse, are the kings the saints and the priests the holy city being referred to symbolically?

• * Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.