Should a Christian Tithe?

[phil marriner]

Judiazers are alive and well today .Always condeming others and quoting the law. By whatever measure you measure out it will be measured back ot you.Whatever judgement oyu judge you yourself will be judged under it .SO if the judiazers want to drag us back into law then they need to be careful because they will be judged under that law and as we well know no one is able to keep the Law except one and that was the messiah

 

[Deborah13]

The problem is, Deborah, the church has been mislead as to what 'not being under the law' means. The meaning they have been taught has in fact led to lawless doctrines. Look around you. We dwell in the midst of a church that says since the law went away so that salvation is no longer by doing the works of the law (as if it ever was) that it doesn't matter what we do anymore--just do good if you can, it's doesn't matter toward salvation anymore.

The grace preachers I listen to do not teach any such thing. So I guess I get upset when someone makes statements that paint the whole church with a very wide brush.
However, I recognize your concern too, I have noticed that the ones I listen to seem to be seeing the same problem and stressing that they are against sin, and making it clear that what they want people to do is walk with the Lord, always looking to Him and in that way sin is overcome in one's life. Grace is never a licenses to sin.

In this matter of tithing, I'm of the opinion that the literal tithe belongs with the other ceremonial worship laws. They have been laid aside in favor of their new spiritual fulfillment (not abolished as the church thinks). It's easy to see right here in this thread how the church's walks out this attitude about the law I shared above. They say the literal command is gone, so just do what you can. That's all that God expects. Not knowing that God still expects faith to fulfill the principles of the law, just in the new way of faith in Christ, not in a 'if I can I will' way.

It is not 'if I can I will'. It's pray and DO what the Spirit shows you to DO.

Maybe you can show me in the OT scriptures where God or Moses ever separate out the Law of Moses into neat little boxes that say,
Ceremonial Law, Civil Law, Family Law, Slavery Law, Business Law, Tithe Law, etc.?

James clearly says, as was drummed into my head in the AoG, which I am thankful for actually.
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

My vote goes with 'the way it is taught'. Again I point out that just in this thread alone we see believers thinking that grace means 'do good if you can, and if you can't it really doesn't matter; whatever you do is good enough'.

That is your interpretation of what others have said. I don't remember anyone saying any such thing but maybe I missed it.

Be Blessed

 

[Deborah13]

I think the important thing is to not bash tithing, but bash the inaccurate teaching about it, don't you agree? I'm hoping you agree that simply choosing to tithe is not the equivalent of 'putting oneself back under the law', and that the problem is the reason you are doing it. The reason being what determines if you are in fact 'putting yourself back under the law' by deciding to tithe.

You are correct in your observation.
My objections have nothing to do with someone putting themselves back under the Law of Moses. I don't believe that someone who chooses to give a 1/10 is doing that at all.
My objection is to the false teachings of many or even most of what the OT scriptures say and teach. They are like the Pharisees and their oral Torah, adding and taking away from the written Torah.

 

[JLB]

In Romans, Paul explicitly says that if anyone does not have the Spirit, they do not belong to God. Which is why he refers to their condition in Romans as such, "since you are not under law but under grace." This "since" is not a conditional statement, but a matter of fact statement as to their condition. We in the New Covenant are not under law, but under grace. We have died to the law through the body of Christ, and raised with Christ in order to serve in the New way of the Spirit, in order to bear fruit for God.

You see, God would not have us put under the law again, because it is only apart from the Law that we are able to truly bear fruit for God. If anyone goes back to the Law, they are accursed and cut off from Christ.

Amen.

The way I understand the law of Moses, it was for the children of Israel who were living in the land of promise, that were under the law of Moses.

In others words, people living in Persia, for example, who were Gentiles, yet walked with God as Abraham, and had never heard of Moses or the law of Moses, who had no intention of going to Israel to keep the required feast's and so forth, were not under the law and would never be under the law of Moses, unless they decided to move to Israel and live there and convert.

Is that the way you see it, or do you think everyone in the world is under the law of Moses?


JLB

 

[JLB]

I believe in Romans 7 when Paul says the law of God, he is talking about the Law of the Spirit that is written on the tablet of his heart (inner man/spirit), not Moses' Law written on tablets of stone with all the details of what they entailed.

If we are to tithe by the law then people better get with the program because if they think their 10% is accurate under the tithing laws they are wrong, it's much closer to 19-23% when all the different tithes are paid. And the offerings are separate.
So these tithe preachers are even cheating them out of the blessing under the tithe laws that they stand on in Malachi. :shock

Tithing according to Malachi and therefore the law of Moses is great as long as you keep all the law of Moses.

Cursed is every man who does not continue in all the law.

However, Abraham tithed 400 years before the law was added.

So using Abraham, and showing we are part of the Abrahamic Covenant, rather than the law of Moses, would be the best way to uses scripture to encourage people to tithe.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Tithing according to Malachi and therefore the law of Moses is great as long as you keep all the law of Moses.

Cursed is every man who does not continue in all the law.

However, Abraham tithed 400 years before the law was added.

So using Abraham, and showing we are part of the Abrahamic Covenant, rather than the law of Moses, would be the best way to uses scripture to encourage people to tithe.


JLB

I don't even see it with Abram as these were the spoils of war and he didn't keep anything for himself. This was very different than the tithe of the increase.
However, I think Jacob was much closer as it was his increase of what the Lord had given him for his sustenance.
But I think the NT scriptures are clear enough for us to see what the Lord would have us do with the blessings He has given us.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Amen.

The way I understand the law of Moses, it was for the children of Israel who were living in the land of promise, that were under the law of Moses.

In others words, people living in Persia, for example, who were Gentiles, yet walked with God as Abraham, and had never heard of Moses or the law of Moses, who had no intention of going to Israel to keep the required feast's and so forth, were not under the law and would never be under the law of Moses, unless they decided to move to Israel and live there and convert.

Is that the way you see it, or do you think everyone in the world is under the law of Moses?


JLB

Here is how I see it.

I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave, though he is the owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world. But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God. Galatians 4:1-7 (ESV)

This metaphor is very helpful in understanding God's purpose for the Law, that the OT saints were in heirs but heirs as a child is, which is no different than a slave, though he owns everything promised by the inheritance. During this time, he is under the guardian and managers, which would be the Law and the Prophets, until the date set by God the Father.

In a nut shell, the Law was a temporary guardian that took care of God's children, kept them in line and on the right course, until the promised Messiah arrived. Since we have received adoption as sons, we now are heirs of the inheritance promised to Abraham, and participants in the Covenant on new grounds. Not through obedience to the Law, but by faith in the risen Messiah Jesus. This is now how God distinguishes his people, by redeeming them through Christ's shed blood, and adopting them so that they take part in his promised inheritance and Covenant.

Since this is the case, the relevance of the Mosaic Law is that it has been fulfilled, and it's righteous requirement is accomplished in us who walk not according to the flesh, but the Spirit. For the purpose of the Law was for us to walk in love, and that can only be done by the Spirit working through our faith to bear fruit in our deeds.

Hope this all makes sense, but it is a HUGE subject.

Blessings,
DI

 

[JLB]

Here is how I see it.

I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave, though he is the owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world. But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God. Galatians 4:1-7 (ESV)

This metaphor is very helpful in understanding God's purpose for the Law, that the OT saints were in heirs but heirs as a child is, which is no different than a slave, though he owns everything promised by the inheritance. During this time, he is under the guardian and managers, which would be the Law and the Prophets, until the date set by God the Father.

In a nut shell, the Law was a temporary guardian that took care of God's children, kept them in line and on the right course, until the promised Messiah arrived. Since we have received adoption as sons, we now are heirs of the inheritance promised to Abraham, and participants in the Covenant on new grounds. Not through obedience to the Law, but by faith in the risen Messiah Jesus. This is now how God distinguishes his people, by redeeming them through Christ's shed blood, and adopting them so that they take part in his promised inheritance and Covenant.

Since this is the case, the relevance of the Mosaic Law is that it has been fulfilled, and it's righteous requirement is accomplished in us who walk not according to the flesh, but the Spirit. For the purpose of the Law was for us to walk in love, and that can only be done by the Spirit working through our faith to bear fruit in our deeds.

Hope this all makes sense, but it is a HUGE subject.

Blessings,
DI

Yes, thank you. I have used that scripture many times as well.

It shows us that "those who were under the law" we're redeemed from the law.

I believe Paul teaches these things to two distinct groups of people.

Those who are under the law. Jews.

Those whom the Judaizers were trying to bring under the law.

My post was about those who were never under the law, as they were:

A: Gentiles
B: uncircumcised
C: live outside Israel.

These that became Christians were never under the law of Moses and never will be.

These should be taught to give and Tithe, not as the law required, but after the pattern of Abraham.


JLB

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Yes, thank you. I have used that scripture many times as well.

It shows us that "those who were under the law" we're redeemed from the law.

I believe Paul teaches these things to two distinct groups of people.

Those who are under the law. Jews.

Those whom the Judaizers were trying to bring under the law.

My post was about those who were never under the law, as they were:

A: Gentiles
B: uncircumcised
C: live outside Israel.

These that became Christians were never under the law of Moses and never will be.

These should be taught to give and Tithe, not as the law required, but after the pattern of Abraham.


JLB

That's an interesting perspective, because Abraham gave a tenth to Melchizedek. Do you think the same basic principles still apply?

I'd like to hear you expound on it a little more if you're willing.

Blessings,
DI

 

[JLB]

That's an interesting perspective, because Abraham gave a tenth to Melchizedek. Do you think the same basic principles still apply?

I'd like to hear you expound on it a little more if you're willing.

Blessings,
DI

I will share a little this evening when I get home.

Blessings. JLB

 

[JLB]

That's an interesting perspective, because Abraham gave a tenth to Melchizedek. Do you think the same basic principles still apply?

I'd like to hear you expound on it a little more if you're willing.

Blessings,
DI

Abram, before he was Abraham, and was circumcised was declared righteous according to the righteousness of faith.

10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised. Romans 4:10-12

...and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

Abraham like Able gave by faith what was righteous in the eyes of God, long before the law was added...

By faith means they obeyed what God told them to do.

Works [of faith] = the effort that obedience requires.

I definitely believe it still applies today.

Myself, I start out with a tenth. Once I have done what I believe the Bible teaches, now I have positioned myself to be led by the Spirit in my giving.

I don't need to be led by the Spirit to tithe, I have instruction from the word for that.

Thats like trying to be led by the Spirit to tell the truth.

I don't need to be led by the Spirit to tell the truth, I have the word that instructs me for that.

One time the Lord moved upon me to give a large amount that I had saved for reserve payroll.

He spoke to me and He showed me.

I saw what He wanted.

I told my wife and she was in agreement.

I gave this amount, in cash, and I gave by The Spirit towards a legal battle that I was fighting for some property that was in a lawsuit.

I went and gave to the specific person I was shown.

He wasn't there, so I left it with the secretary.

He called me weeping and crying and laughing at the same time.

He went on to tell me that he had prayed with his congregation and his associate pastor.

He had prayed for that exact amount, to the penny, and said to me if he hadn't got it, he would have closed the doors to his church.

He went on to share his testimony with the church and encouraged others who were in a financial bind to pray for the specific amount that they needed and stand firm and believe that God would provide.

They had many many testimonies from people that were receiving finances from many places they had never expected.

It really encouraged this Pastor and his faith and his congregation as well.

It was exactly to the penny what this man of God was believing for.

Giving in obedience to God is for us today.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Grace is never a licenses to sin.

We know this is true, but I can't figure out how the church can agree with that, but then turn right around and say sinning has no effect on salvation because salvation is so utterly and completely not connected to works because the people of God are no longer saved by doing works of the law--as if they were to begin with. See the problem? The church can't have it both ways.

It is not 'if I can I will'. It's pray and DO what the Spirit shows you to DO.

Maybe you can show me in the OT scriptures where God or Moses ever separate out the Law of Moses into neat little boxes that say,
Ceremonial Law, Civil Law, Family Law, Slavery Law, Business Law, Tithe Law, etc.?

Read what you just wrote with tithing in mind. Now reread it with 'do not murder' in mind.

James clearly says, as was drummed into my head in the AoG, which I am thankful for actually.
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

If James is reminding the church that it is not enough to not murder or not commit adultery, but that we should also not show favoritism, why does the church think that doesn't include the rest of the law like tithing?

Don't misunderstand, I think literal tithing got laid aside with the rest of the literal ceremonial/worship law, but I'm asking because this explanation of why we don't have to tithe is contrary to that which even you agree James is teaching--that it's not okay to take comfort in keeping some of the law while forsaking other parts of it.

The church believes this but the church then says we don't have to tithe....and then add to that that there is no such thing as divisions in types of law. It doesn't add up. That's why it's not part of my personal doctrinal beliefs. The church's teaching about law is terribly flawed land has led to some seriously dangerous doctrines that are leading people astray. I'm neither defending literal law keeping, nor am I defending this 'obey God if/when you feel like it because it doesn't matter anymore toward salvation' doctrine presently gripping the church today. There's truth about this that the church needs to know.

 

[Edward]

Post #92 "Like"

What a testimony! Wow. I have heard of that sort of thing happening before. Almost exactly the same way too, no surprise there.

 

[JLB]

Post #92 "Like"

What a testimony! Wow. I have heard of that sort of thing happening before. Almost exactly the same way too, no surprise there.

The Lord Blessed me with a great victory, with exceedingly abundantly above and beyond all I could ever imagine.


JLB

 

[JLB]

We know this is true, but I can't figure out how the church can agree with that, but then turn right around and say sinning has no effect on salvation because salvation is so utterly and completely not connected to works because the people of God are no longer saved by doing works of the law--as if they were to begin with. See the problem? The church can't have it both ways.



Read what you just wrote with tithing in mind. Now reread it with 'do not murder' in mind.



If James is reminding the church that it is not enough to not murder or not commit adultery, but that we should also not show favoritism, why does the church think that doesn't include the rest of the law like tithing?

Don't misunderstand, I think literal tithing got laid aside with the rest of the literal ceremonial/worship law, but I'm asking because this explanation of why we don't have to tithe is contrary to that which even you agree James is teaching--that it's not okay to take comfort in keeping some of the law while forsaking other parts of it.

The church believes this but the church then says we don't have to tithe....and then add to that that there is no such thing as divisions in types of law. It doesn't add up. That's why it's not part of my personal doctrinal beliefs. The church's teaching about law is terribly flawed land has led to some seriously dangerous doctrines that are leading people astray. I'm neither defending literal law keeping, nor am I defending this 'obey God if/when you feel like it because it doesn't matter anymore toward salvation' doctrine presently gripping the church today. There's truth about this that the church needs to know.

I see the NT writers referring to the 10 commandments alot, as they refer to the law.

The 10 commandments were Gods law before the law of Moses was added.

Tithing is not one of the 10 Commandments.

However, you make very good points in what you are saying.

There are many things in the law that we need to take heed to, and practice as we walk with God.

The Church has been misled about these things.

Feeding folks with "bite size" portions of truth that pertain to the way Abraham walked before God is one way to help acclimate them to His truth.

IMO.


JLB

 

[Edward]

The Lord Blessed me with a great victory, with exceedingly abundantly above and beyond all I could ever imagine.


JLB

that's great brother! glad to hear it. Praise the Lord

I have been blessed lately too. Mechanics liens sure do work good thanks to the bankers, lol. I dunno why people don't want to pay after you work for them. it cost that guy substantially more by doing it this way. Doesn't make sense. But oh well, I can use the money. Praise the Lord!

 

[Obadiah]

... this 'obey God if/when you feel like it because it doesn't matter anymore toward salvation' doctrine presently gripping the church today...

While I couldn't agree more about how wrong this is, I'm glad it's not as widespread as you seem to be saying it is by saying it is gripping the whole church today. At least around where I live I've never been in a church or talked to anyone else who goes to a church that teaches this way. (Not to say it doesn't exist here, just that it's much more rare than what you are describing.) So sorry to hear the churches in your area are like this. Extremism on either side of these kind of issues is usually a bad thing, and we need to pray this doesn't spread any further.

 

[Deborah13]

We know this is true, but I can't figure out how the church can agree with that, but then turn right around and say sinning has no effect on salvation because salvation is so utterly and completely not connected to works because the people of God are no longer saved by doing works of the law--as if they were to begin with. See the problem? The church can't have it both ways.

Read what you just wrote with tithing in mind. Now reread it with 'do not murder' in mind.

I don't need Moses' Law to tell me not to murder, the Spirit says do not murder. Murder was a lawless act from the very beginning long before Moses' Law.
At one time you may have thought it was what you saw in Moses' Law that kept you from sinning but I tell you dear heart it was/is not so. The Holy Spirit in you told you and you were listening and obeyed and continue to do so.
Israel had the covenant of Moses' Law for what 1500 yrs. and they failed to keep it. The Messiah did keep it and fulfilled it, never failing in one jot or tittle. That covenant being fulfilled is obsolete.

The covenant of grace is really the old original covenant that covenant made between the Father and the Son from the foundation of the world that stands forever.

We can clearly see in the scriptures that the power to overcome sin is not found in Moses' Law but by the grace found only through the Son. So I say shout Grace, Grace, for the healing of the people.

If James is reminding the church that it is not enough to not murder or not commit adultery, but that we should also not show favoritism, why does the church think that doesn't include the rest of the law like tithing?

Don't misunderstand, I think literal tithing got laid aside with the rest of the literal ceremonial/worship law, but I'm asking because this explanation of why we don't have to tithe is contrary to that which even you agree James is teaching--that it's not okay to take comfort in keeping some of the law while forsaking other parts of it.

The church believes this but the church then says we don't have to tithe....and then add to that that there is no such thing as divisions in types of law. It doesn't add up. That's why it's not part of my personal doctrinal beliefs. The church's teaching about law is terribly flawed land has led to some seriously dangerous doctrines that are leading people astray. I'm neither defending literal law keeping, nor am I defending this 'obey God if/when you feel like it because it doesn't matter anymore toward salvation' doctrine presently gripping the church today. There's truth about this that the church needs to know.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't need Moses' Law to tell me not to murder, the Spirit says do not murder. Murder was a lawless act from the very beginning long before Moses' Law.
At one time you may have thought it was what you saw in Moses' Law that kept you from sinning but I tell you dear heart it was/is not so. The Holy Spirit in you told you and you were listening and obeyed and continue to do so.
Israel had the covenant of Moses' Law for what 1500 yrs. and they failed to keep it. The Messiah did keep it and fulfilled it, never failing in one jot or tittle. That covenant being fulfilled is obsolete.

The covenant of grace is really the old original covenant that covenant made between the Father and the Son from the foundation of the world that stands forever.

We can clearly see in the scriptures that the power to overcome sin is not found in Moses' Law but by the grace found only through the Son. So I say shout Grace, Grace, for the healing of the people.

This is all well and good. You're preaching to the choir. You've taken the matter into an area I'm not even addressing.

The problem is this does not adequately explain why Christians don't have to tithe. By itself it's not a big issue. Like I say, I personally don't think literal tithing has to be done or else be cursed, just like we don't have to keep a literal Sabbath or else be cursed. The problem lies in the reason the church says we don't have to tithe (or keep Sabbath, etc.) and the implication that is drawn from that reason. This reason actually has, generally speaking, resulted in less obedience and seriousness about the things of God, not more as grace teaching insists should happen and which Christians take comfort in.

I suggest the person who tithes because he is sure it is an expected outcome of saving faith (like 'do not steal' is) and is not trying to be justified by doing that, and who does so without the kind of compulsion Paul talks about, is more pleasing to God than the 'grace' person who gives little to nothing because he is convinced by distorted grace/law teaching that his relationship with God has nothing to do with what he does and that just the fact that he (in his mind) is 'following the Spirit' by giving little (IOW, rationalizes the lack of giving impulse as the lack of God's telling him to do it) and thinks it would actually be wrong to do it simply because even though it's a good thing to do, is absent some powerful move of the Spirit and therefore is a fleshly, carnal, unacceptable work of the law.

The short of it is, bad law/grace teaching in the church today has actually resulted in LESS obedience, not more as grace teaching insists will happen in the absence of law. A belief based on the erroneous assumption that 'not being under the law' means it has passed away (PC for 'abolished') and, therefore, is not to be taken into consideration when assessing the obligations of obedience faith in Christ has to God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

While I couldn't agree more about how wrong this is, I'm glad it's not as widespread as you seem to be saying it is by saying it is gripping the whole church today. At least around where I live I've never been in a church or talked to anyone else who goes to a church that teaches this way. (Not to say it doesn't exist here, just that it's much more rare than what you are describing.) So sorry to hear the churches in your area are like this. Extremism on either side of these kind of issues is usually a bad thing, and we need to pray this doesn't spread any further.

No I'm talking about what people are saying all over the globe as evidenced by forums like this.

Grace teaching in the church says we don't listen to laws anymore (they've been done away with now that salvation is by faith alone) and we listen to the Spirit now, and if the Spirit is saying nothing, or you're not hearing anything, it doesn't matter. It has no bearing on your relationship with God anyway.

All of this erroneous thinking that produces LESS obedience and makes grace a general license to sin all because the church has misunderstood Paul's law/grace teaching.