Should a Christian Tithe?

[Obadiah]

So what. They go home tired after a service. What a persecution that is, i really feel sorry them. I will give them a dolla if its going to make them feel better.

If i was in a church band i would love the rehursals and would be having a ball up there singing and playing music and stuff.

Well the fact that you don't appreciate what they do for you doesn't mean no one else does.

 

[Deborah13]

So what. They go home tired after a service. What a persecution that is, i really feel sorry them. I will give them a dolla if its going to make them feel better.

If i was in a church band i would love the rehursals and would be having a ball up there singing and playing music and stuff.

Lexy enjoys it very much too. But putting together new songs with the musicians and singers is not just having a good time. There's a lot of practice time involved working out harmonies, when certain instruments will lead, solo, timing just all kinds of things. Have you ever been in a professional band or singing group or even say school band or choir? If you have then you know it's a lot of work.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes i have played gigs with friends. I play the guitar and i play it because i enjoy playing it . I know a couple of famous musicians personally, and i know how busy there lifestyle is, but we are talking half an hour of playing a week at a church. Not a full time career.

And you say new songs. How often do they play new songs?. I learn new songs near every night playing my guitar.

So when you play gigs how much practice time did you put in?

 

[veryberry]

Grace is the greatest power God possesses, yet it is not the "wonderful answer"?

Here is what the law could not do. The law can not keep one from sinning. The law does not restrain sin. The law causes sin to abound. But where sin abounds, grace much more abounds

Here is what the law does. The law empowers sin, puts sins into motions, provides opportunity for sin.

The law is weak through the flesh, because it requires power from the flesh which is not there and it is only through grace that we can overcome sin.

This is why God does not want us under the law in any way, shape or form.

God wants us to live the sanctified lives he has provided for us through his Son Jesus Christ, being made dead to sin and alive unto God, not under the law(we are dead to it) but under grace. It is all a matter of faith. For the just shall live by faith. Reckon yourselves to be dead. To be under the law is to be under the dominion of sin. To try and restrain sin through the power of your flesh, is to be in the flesh and you cannot please God.

If your giving is based on a set requirement, whether by yourself, or by your church, you are under a law. Because that one time you cannot give that set amount, your conscience has been defiled. God wants you to give through grace, cheerfully, not out of necessity, not grudgingly. This is the only way God is well pleased in giving.

 

[Obadiah]

As I was saying before, Christians are only interested in money these days. How much others are giving and how little they can get away with giving. Very few appreciate anything else given to God, and will even belittle those who do these things as being less worthy than those who are rich enough to give 10% or so of their income without it hurting them. And we wonder why pastors have the highest rate of any profession for leaving their jobs, and why the music director at my church just walked away from that job and hasn't been seen in church since due to burnout and under appreciation. Oh well, Who cares?

 

[Deborah13]

As I was saying before, Christians are only interested in money these days. How much others are giving and how little they can get away with giving. Very few appreciate anything else given to God, and will even belittle those who do these things as being less worthy than those who are rich enough to give 10% or so of their income without it hurting them. And we wonder why pastors have the highest rate of any profession for leaving their jobs, and why the music director at my church just walked away from that job and hasn't been seen in church since due to burnout and under appreciation. Oh well, Who cares?

The Father and the Son care. They don't have blind eyes and stopped up ears.
May the Lord bless you richly in everything you do!

 

[JLB]

As I was saying before, Christians are only interested in money these days. How much others are giving and how little they can get away with giving. Very few appreciate anything else given to God, and will even belittle those who do these things as being less worthy than those who are rich enough to give 10% or so of their income without it hurting them. And we wonder why pastors have the highest rate of any profession for leaving their jobs, and why the music director at my church just walked away from that job and hasn't been seen in church since due to burnout and under appreciation. Oh well, Who cares?

The Lord has a way of "making us to lie done in green pastures" when we sometimes lose site of Him, over the work of the ministry.

Pastors and staff are very unappreciated as many have no idea what they go through to serve God's people.

I pray your friend is blessed and refreshed in this season, as God will work all things together for his good.

God bless you. JLB

 

[Obadiah]

Thanks JLB. She (music director was a woman) is a tremendously talented pianist (philharmonic orchestra quality, and has played in them), not just your run of the mill recreational piano player that just plays for fun when she feels like it. And she had a true heart for working with the singers and other musicians and an ear for what makes good worship music. But you can't really ask for help with the thousands of hours of practice it takes to achieve that kind of excellence on an instrument and you can't really ask someone else to help train the others when there is no one qualified to do that. She will be missed but as you point out, it's more important that after 9 years she finally has a chance to be able to worship the Lord again herself and to rebuild her own faith that must have suffered as she only worked to facilitate the worship of others. It's clear those who have never done that with high quality and on a regular basis just don't understand what is involved and the toll it takes on those who appear to just be up there clapping their hands and having a grand old time, happily strumming a guitar or banging on a drum without a care in the world, or mindlessly twiddling knobs at random on a sound mixing board somehow just by chance getting it right each time. Sadly the people who serve the Lord in excellence in these capacities are many times muzzled and forgotten when if come to doling out the funds from the collection plate. Instead we tell them (with our actions and words) that what they contribute isn't worth the waste of the money that others have contributed through their monetary tithes and offerings.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law can not keep one from sinning. The law does not restrain sin. The law causes sin to abound.

Here is what the law does. The law empowers sin, puts sins into motions, provides opportunity for sin.

The law is weak through the flesh, because it requires power from the flesh which is not there and it is only through grace that we can overcome sin.

This is why God does not want us under the law in any way, shape or form.

Then why does James, for example, put the church 'under the law' in his letter?

I learned that the church does not know what the Bible means by 'under the law'. They have changed it to mean something else that is not included in the Biblical definition of that phrase.

If your giving is based on a set requirement, whether by yourself, or by your church, you are under a law. Because that one time you cannot give that set amount, your conscience has been defiled. God wants you to give through grace, cheerfully, not out of necessity, not grudgingly. This is the only way God is well pleased in giving.

I find it interesting that, in practice, grace--which God wants us to operate in--actually leads people to give less than what the inferior and displeasing and sinful way of the law commanded. That doesn't jibe with the church's boast of the power of grace.

Why is it always assumed that tithing by New Covenant saints is a sinful effort of the flesh and can't be motivated by grace? But it's applauded as grace when one says they only give when they feel like it and with the 'I don't have to give a tenth' attitude. I find this completely contrary to the boast that Christian's make about the power of grace and how much better and pleasing to God it is than 'being under the law'.

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

Then why does James, for example, put the church 'under the law' in his letter?

Please share with us the scripture that states the church is under the law of Moses.

I learned that the church does not know what the Bible means by 'under the law'. They have changed it to mean something else that is not included in the Biblical definition of that phrase.

Please tell us what "The Church" means by the term under the law, since you seem to be privy to what all the Church believes and thinks.


Under the law means you are under obligation to uphold all its requirements.


JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

As soon as the first Church I joined found out I had a voice I was on the Worship Team. When the LORD called me out of my comfort zone to the second church, I was the Music Director. In the last two Churches I was on the team until it became to much for me to do in my wheelchair. In these past 23+ years I was not paid but, indeed, the work is not simple and do not begrudge those that are for the work is extensive if it is done properly.

When I was the Lead Singer in my band I demanded no less than one three to four hour practice each week and in the Church we should never enter into Sunday without at least an hour of practice and the more the better. I admit that, as my wife and daughter put it, I am weird. I have never been in front of the Church that I was not worshiping, singing, playing or preaching. Such is not the case for the entire team, some are there to impress others and some believe the must work but all but one, I ran off, are there to help others to worship.

If the Church Family is large enough to pay the Worship Team, they should do so. If you are a freak for Jesus, like me, and prefer small but growing Churches, they do not have the funds and they are always in need of pros and simi-pros like me and the worship team should always be totally surrendered to God. Imagine an entire team without personal reasons for their service, but to debate this point, as I interpret Obidiah trying to stress, is silly. Any service in the Church we should be there to worship and to study.

May God bless.

p.s. Hello Deb.

 

[Deborah13]

As soon as the first Church I joined found out I had a voice I was on the Worship Team. When the LORD called me out of my comfort zone to the second church, I was the Music Director. In the last two Churches I was on the team until it became to much for me to do in my wheelchair. In these past 23+ years I was not paid but, indeed, the work is not simple and do not begrudge those that are for the work is extensive if it is done properly.

When I was the Lead Singer in my band I demanded no less than one three to four hour practice each week and in the Church we should never enter into Sunday without at least an hour of practice and the more the better. I admit that, as my wife and daughter put it, I am weird. I have never been in front of the Church that I was not worshiping, singing, playing or preaching. Such is not the case for the entire team, some are there to impress others and some believe the must work but all but one, I ran off, are there to help others to worship.

If the Church Family is large enough to pay the Worship Team, they should do so. If you are a freak for Jesus, like me, and prefer small but growing Churches, they do not have the funds and they are always in need of pros and simi-pros like me and the worship team should always be totally surrendered to God. Imagine an entire team without personal reasons for their service, but to debate this point, as I interpret Obidiah trying to stress, is silly. Any service in the Church we should be there to worship and to study.

May God bless.

p.s. Hello Deb.

Hey Bill, Glad to hear your voice in this discussion as one who knows what it takes and imo has the right attitude. Anything we do for the Lord should be to the best of our abilities no matter what it is.

God Bless you.

 

[WIP]

Those people you describe have put a lot of time and effort into doing what they do (far more than you see) if they are doing it well. They are not doing it for their own worship of God, they are doing it to facilitate YOUR worship of God. Those people (including your pastor) go home drained and tired after a service and must look to other ways to satisfy their own worship needs because what they do for YOU in your church service is work for them, not worship. I know, because I have a part in that, and I haven't been able to "worship" in the church I work in since the day I started there and haven't had a Sunday off in almost 3 years to be able to worship God myself. I'm too busy concentrating on my job of facilitating that worship for everyone else. It's true that in the OT, the tithe was used to pay these people, just not with money. They were paid with food, shelter, etc.

This brings up a question for me. If one considers a ministry to be work, imagine how that would apply with regard to doing work on the Sabbath. Paul often mentioned how he was in chains, a slave for Christ, and suffering for the gospel. Isn't that worshiping God in its own right?

 

[Deborah13]

Grace is the greatest power God possesses, yet it is not the "wonderful answer"?

Here is what the law could not do. The law can not keep one from sinning. The law does not restrain sin. The law causes sin to abound. But where sin abounds, grace much more abounds

Here is what the law does. The law empowers sin, puts sins into motions, provides opportunity for sin.

The law is weak through the flesh, because it requires power from the flesh which is not there and it is only through grace that we can overcome sin.

This is why God does not want us under the law in any way, shape or form.

God wants us to live the sanctified lives he has provided for us through his Son Jesus Christ, being made dead to sin and alive unto God, not under the law(we are dead to it) but under grace. It is all a matter of faith. For the just shall live by faith. Reckon yourselves to be dead. To be under the law is to be under the dominion of sin. To try and restrain sin through the power of your flesh, is to be in the flesh and you cannot please God.

If your giving is based on a set requirement, whether by yourself, or by your church, you are under a law. Because that one time you cannot give that set amount, your conscience has been defiled. God wants you to give through grace, cheerfully, not out of necessity, not grudgingly. This is the only way God is well pleased in giving.

Veryberry, I think you've hit the nail square on the head.
"Because that one time you cannot give that set amount, your conscience has been defiled."
And
"God wants you to give through grace, cheerfully, not out of necessity, not grudgingly. This is the only way God is well pleased in giving."

 

[Obadiah]

This brings up a question for me. If one considers a ministry to be work, imagine how that would apply with regard to doing work on the Sabbath. Paul often mentioned how he was in chains, a slave for Christ, and suffering for the gospel. Isn't that worshiping God in its own right?

And that is exactly why those who truly do work at their ministries in the weekly worship service need to find other ways to worship and other ways to practice a "day of rest". Sadly, many can't find another way, and this is why church workers (voluntarily or paid) who truly believe in putting out the effort to do their job skillfully suffer a rate of burnout in churches higher than in most other jobs. I personally haven't been able to worship on a Sunday morning for almost 3 years now because my job requires my almost constant attention from 2 or 3 hours before the service starts until well after it's over and everyone else has left the building (not to mention many times working at it mid-week as well and spending time practicing my skills and bettering them, which is something even the church leadership rarely sees or realizes I do). Other than the odd mid week service at another church that I get to go to once in a while, I haven't had an opportunity to concentrate on worshiping God with the Body of Christ in almost 3 years. I don't get to sing the hymns and songs, I don't get to concentrate on the sermon, I don't get to pray with the congregation or listen to the scripture readings. None of it. I can hear it all, sure, but my job requires me to concentrate on other things. I'm starting to get burned out by that. But in a congregation of about 150 people, there is literally no one else that can or is willing to do what I do well enough to be allowed to take over and give me a break. But this is the only "ministry" God has allowed me to do at this point, so I continue to give it my best and trust Him to give me what I need to keep my relationship with Him right.

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy what I am doing, and it seems God has given me enough talent for it that I am in demand. But is this the way Christian service is supposed to affect the believer? If this isn't "work", I don't know what is.

 

[WIP]

Not trying to hijack this thread but I can't help but hear your exhaustion. Ask yourself what would happen if you didn't do what you do. Would the church be forced to close or would someone or someones step up to fill the void? Surely with 150 members, somebody could be called on to help out and take some of the stress away from you. I don't know what it is you do exactly but in our church of about 70 members, most of which are elderly, we still manage to find people to fill the various positions such as council president, council vice president, council secretary, council treasurer, 3 deacons, 3-5 trustees, 3 education board members, 3 cemetery board members, 2 greeters for services, 2 ushers, special music organizer, choir director, special events meal planners, 2 families to clean the church each week, grounds keepers, etc.

 

[Obadiah]

I'm their sound engineer. As opposed to a sound technician that basically just runs the sound mixer, recorder, etc, I also designed, built, and maintain the entire system as well as figuring out how to reconfigure it for various uses (many times things it was never designed to do), and do it with minimal cost to the church. It's a paid position so understandably more is expected of me than if I were just a volunteer. There are others who could pitch in and do some of it once in a while, but they either don't want to or they make such a mess of it that the church doesn't want them to do it anymore.

The reality is that the $200/month they pay me doesn't even come close to minimum wage for the hours I put in. I just posted a link for a member to a song I recorded as an example of how MediaFire works, but the reality is the album that song comes from took me probably 40 hours of rehearsal, recording, remastering, etc to produce, none of which is part of my job description that I'm paid for. I really do enjoy doing it,and God has given me a talent for it that goes beyond book learning, so I want to use what God has given me to serve him. But it hurts deeply and makes me want to quit doing anything at all when people say what I do isn't worth anything, and belittle it as just "twiddling knobs hoping to get it right" (a comment I really have heard!) while those who give lots of money, usually because they have lots of money to give and aren't sacrificing much, are held in reverence and coddled. It's the same thing with others involved in church work. Because I see the work and effort the others put in as well, most of them not even paid anything while the church pays tens of thousands of dollars for other things which don't really affect the quality of worship or teaching at all, yet those who directly affect worship are belittled for the efforts they put out by people who obviously have no idea what it takes to do the work of hte Lord and do it well.
"Whatever you do, do well. For when you go to the grave, there will be no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom." (Ecc 9:10, NLT)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Veryberry, I think you've hit the nail square on the head.
"Because that one time you cannot give that set amount, your conscience has been defiled."
And
"God wants you to give through grace, cheerfully, not out of necessity, not grudgingly. This is the only way God is well pleased in giving."

Sadly, any and all tithing is automatically assumed by most in the church to mean you're doing it not cheerfully and grudgingly. That's a lack of understanding of Paul's law/grace teaching at best. Downright judgmental at worst.

I was a cheerful tither for years. Some of my greatest joys of Christian service have come from writing generous checks from an amount of money we kept reserved for giving to ministries. An amount of money based on ten percent of our gross income. But most in the church are only capable of believing that can only be done out of a fleshly, carnal, spirit-less effort of the flesh and/or a desire to justify oneself.

Just because a person isn't capable of doing it for the right reason themselves doesn't mean everyone else can't do it for the right reason either. I say this about all the literal old covenant ceremonial/worship stipulations. You will only give an account for your service and worship of God, not anybody else's. And I would rather be a cheerful tither on the Day of Wrath than a tight fisted 'grace' believer who thought grace was a license to take comfort in a 'do nothing, it doesn't matter' grace theology. The condemnation that so many think is in store for what appears to them to be a legalistic, spirit-less believer is actually in store for the works starved grace believer who thought grace meant they have been relieved of the obligations of obedience that faith in Christ and the giving of the new nature has connected to it. The new nature was given to us to produce the fruit of the kingdom in increasing abundance, not to produce little or no fruit of the kingdom because we're 'no longer under the law'.

 

[JLB]

Sadly, any and all tithing is automatically assumed by most in the church to mean you're doing it not cheerfully and grudgingly. That's a lack of understanding of Paul's law/grace teaching at best. Downright judgmental at worst.

I was a cheerful tither for years. Some of my greatest joys of Christian service have come from writing generous checks from an amount of money we kept reserved for giving to ministries. An amount of money based on ten percent of our gross income. But most in the church are only capable of believing that can only be done out of a fleshly, carnal, spirit-less effort of the flesh and/or a desire to justify oneself.

Just because a person isn't capable of doing it for the right reason themselves doesn't mean everyone else can't do it for the right reason either. I say this about all the literal old covenant ceremonial/worship stipulations. You will only give an account for your service and worship of God, not anybody else's. And I would rather be a cheerful tither on the Day of Wrath than a tight fisted 'grace' believer who thought grace was a license to take comfort in a 'do nothing, it doesn't matter' grace theology. The condemnation that so many think is in store for what appears to them to be a legalistic, spirit-less believer is actually in store for the works starved grace believer who thought grace meant they have been relieved of the obligations of obedience that faith in Christ and the giving of the new nature has connected to it. The new nature was given to us to produce the fruit of the kingdom in increasing abundance, not to produce little or no fruit of the kingdom because we're 'no longer under the law'.

Do you believe that teaching the Church is under the law, it would cause them to produce the fruit of the kingdom?


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Sadly, any and all tithing is automatically assumed by most in the church to mean you're doing it not cheerfully and grudgingly. That's a lack of understanding of Paul's law/grace teaching at best. Downright judgmental at worst.

Sadly you judge people by some standards you have set up.
I don't know anyone who says the things you accuse the majority of the church members of saying at all. In this whole discussion not one person that I can think judged what is in another person's heart when the tithe or give by grace. Not one person has judged anyone else's giving. iLOVE tithes by Malachi and stated he does it with love and from the heart and I posted to him that surely the Lord blesses him for that. He is a gracious giver not giving by necessity or obligation. The amount is not relevant compared to the heart felt, generous giving.

I was a cheerful tither for years. Some of my greatest joys of Christian service have come from writing generous checks from an amount of money we kept reserved for giving to ministries. An amount of money based on ten percent of our gross income. But most in the church are only capable of believing that can only be done out of a fleshly, carnal, spirit-less effort of the flesh and/or a desire to justify oneself.

Just because a person isn't capable of doing it for the right reason themselves doesn't mean everyone else can't do it for the right reason either. I say this about all the literal old covenant ceremonial/worship stipulations. You will only give an account for your service and worship of God, not anybody else's. And I would rather be a cheerful tither on the Day of Wrath than a tight fisted 'grace' believer who thought grace was a license to take comfort in a 'do nothing, it doesn't matter' grace theology. The condemnation that so many think is in store for what appears to them to be a legalistic, spirit-less believer is actually in store for the works starved grace believer who thought grace meant they have been relieved of the obligations of obedience that faith in Christ and the giving of the new nature has connected to it. The new nature was given to us to produce the fruit of the kingdom in increasing abundance, not to produce little or no fruit of the kingdom because we're 'no longer under the law'.

The new nature, the Holy Spirit in us, it is HE the Spirit of God, who produces the fruit of the kingdom in and through us.