Should a Christian Tithe?

[Jethro Bodine]

Murder was a lawless act from the very beginning long before Moses' Law.
.

It's interesting that tithing was before the law of Moses, too, and Sabbath keeping, and circumcision, and the Passover, but the reason the church says we don't have to do those anymore is because they are the law.

Again, I don't believe we have to literally tithe as specified in the law. I'm saying the reason the church gives for not having to do that anymore is flawed and has actually turned grace into a license to sin with impunity (because, if you're truly saved, your salvation is not connected to what you do in any way shape or form).

 

[JLB]

This is all well and good. You're preaching to the choir. You've taken the matter into an area I'm not even addressing.

The problem is this does not adequately explain why Christians don't have to tithe. By itself it's not a big issue. Like I say, I personally don't think literal tithing has to be done or else be cursed, just like we don't have to keep a literal Sabbath or else be cursed. The problem lies in the reason the church says we don't have to tithe (or keep Sabbath, etc.) and the implication that is drawn from that reason. This reason actually has, generally speaking, resulted in less obedience and seriousness about the things of God, not more as grace teaching insists should happen and which Christians take comfort in.

I suggest the person who tithes because he is sure it is an expected outcome of saving faith (like 'do not steal' is) and is not trying to be justified by doing that, and who does so without the kind of compulsion Paul talks about, is more pleasing to God than the 'grace' person who gives little to nothing because he is convinced by distorted grace/law teaching that his relationship with God has nothing to do with what he does and that just the fact that he (in his mind) is 'following the Spirit' by giving little (IOW, rationalizes the lack of giving impulse as the lack of God's telling him to do it) and thinks it would actually be wrong to do it simply because even though it's a good thing to do, is absent some powerful move of the Spirit and therefore is a fleshly, carnal, unacceptable work of the law.

The short of it is, bad law/grace teaching in the church today has actually resulted in LESS obedience, not more as grace teaching insists will happen in the absence of law. A belief based on the erroneous assumption that 'not being under the law' means it has passed away (PC for 'abolished') and, therefore, is not to be taken into consideration when assessing the obligations of obedience faith in Christ has to God.

The law of Moses is obsolete and has vanished away.

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

The law of Moses requires physical circumcision.

Not circumcision "by faith", but physical fleshly circumcision.

Is physical fleshly circumcision required to be a part of the Church?

The law of Moses requires literal animal sacrifices for the atonement for sin.

These sacrifices pointed to The Sacrifice of God's only Begotten Son.

The law of Moses required that the Levitical priesthood were in charge of these things.


The law of Moses has vanished away and is obsolete.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

It's interesting that tithing was before the law of Moses, too, and Sabbath keeping, and circumcision, and the Passover, but the reason the church says we don't have to do those anymore is because they are the law.

It was Paul who said that these things were no longer necessary. We keep the Lord's Supper. Why would one keep the circumcision, etc. out of necessity?
Your argument is with Paul and the other Jews who followed Messiah, not the church.

Again, I don't believe we have to literally tithe as specified in the law. I'm saying the reason the church gives for not having to do that anymore is flawed and has actually turned grace into a license to sin with impunity (because, if you're truly saved, your salvation is not connected to what you do in any way shape or form).

Jethro, truly I have never heard this come out of anyone's mouth.
Can you give me just one example of one church or one preacher who preaches this? Anyone, just one even a church in your area, most have websites now if they having much of a following at all.
I'd really like to hear or read what they are saying.

 

[Obadiah]

No I'm talking about what people are saying all over the globe as evidenced by forums like this.

Grace teaching in the church says we don't listen to laws anymore (they've been done away with now that salvation is by faith alone) and we listen to the Spirit now, and if the Spirit is saying nothing, or you're not hearing anything, it doesn't matter. It has no bearing on your relationship with God anyway.

All of this erroneous thinking that produces LESS obedience and makes grace a general license to sin all because the church has misunderstood Paul's law/grace teaching.

Yeah, like I said, I haven't been in one that teaches this way at all. Neither has anyone I've talked to when the subject might have come up. Maybe it's just the people I hang around, but no one has ever talked about grace being a license to sin (or implied it, just using other words). That's certainly a wrong way to look at grace, for sure, and is not the same thing as just being forgiven when we do sin! It's true that we aren't saved by keeping the OT law, of course, and salvation is through grace alone. But that's totally different than saying we have a license to sin now. I've heard others say too that this is being taught in some churches. But I've never known anyone who actually was in a church like this.

Do you have an example of where on this forum someone is saying we have a license to sin?

 

[Willie T]

I've been decades in "law" churches, and I am now attending a "grace" church. I have to say from personal experience and from observation that those who see themselves as under grace, seem to actually live the intent of the law somewhat better than most "law" congregations I have known.

I think it must have something to do with the appreciation they feel, since they understand they didn't contribute a thing to their salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I've been decades in "law" churches, and I am now attending a "grace" church. I have to say from personal experience and from observation that those who see themselves as under grace, seem to actually live the intent of the law somewhat better than most "law" congregations I have known.

I think it must have something to do with the appreciation they feel, since they understand they didn't contribute a thing to their salvation.

You're going in the vein of what I'm actually talking about.

Now, is it your experience that 'grace' believers as a whole give less than a tithe, about a tithe, or more than a tithe through the power of the grace they are quick to say believers now have in Christ? My experience is that the mere mention of the tithe solicits an immediate 'we're not under the law anymore', which translated means, "I don't have to give a tenth of my money anymore and can justify doing less". But then they wax into a discussion about how the Holy Spirit is what prompts their giving, toeing the line for 'grace' that says grace is a super abundant and successful way to serve God that is far superior to the old way of the law.

So, why does overflowing gratitude for God's forgiveness mean doing LESS than what the law commanded for giving? It doesn't jibe with the church's insistence that the amazing power of the Spirit is how we now please God and serve him over and above the fruitless and futile way of the law which couldn't make a flea jump. This is all the more stark when you consider what Deborah shared that the Mosaic tithe actually amounts to over twenty percent of an Israelite's income (John McArthur's observation if I'm not mistaken?).

Again I say, grace--which is supposed to produce everything and more the law could not--actually ends up producing LESS in actual practice. And I blame it on the fact that the church, in general, has distorted and misunderstood Paul's law/grace message, turning it into a message of 'I don't have to worry about a connection between my works and my salvation anymore because salvation is so utterly not dependent on works'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It was Paul who said that these things were no longer necessary. We keep the Lord's Supper. Why would one keep the circumcision, etc. out of necessity?
Your argument is with Paul and the other Jews who followed Messiah, not the church.

You're missing the argument.

The church says the reason they don't have to tithe is because it's from the law that was added for a season and then removed...and added for natural Jews only (of course, the argument has variations, but that's the basic argument). But this gets exposed as a lacking explanation when you consider that tithing like circumcision, and Sabbath keeping, and Passover were all added before the law was added, but all are rejected on the argument that they are 'the law'. See? It doesn't add up.

So, the point I've been making here is this reason is terribly flawed and has helped lead to doctrines that actually help people not to be as fruitful in the things of God compared to the old way of the law they are quick to point out is an inferior, ineffective, and even sinful way to serve God.

 

[Deborah13]

You're going in the vein of what I'm actually talking about.

Now, is it your experience that 'grace' believers as a whole give less than a tithe, about a tithe, or more than a tithe through the power of the grace they are quick to say believers now have in Christ? My experience is that the mere mention of the tithe solicits an immediate 'we're not under the law anymore', which translated means, "I don't have to give a tenth of my money anymore and can justify doing less". But then they wax into a discussion about how the Holy Spirit is what prompts their giving, toeing the line for 'grace' that says grace is a super abundant and successful way to serve God that is far superior to the old way of the law.

So, why does overflowing gratitude for God's forgiveness mean doing LESS than what the law commanded for giving? It doesn't jibe with the church's insistence that the amazing power of the Spirit is how we now please God and serve him over and above the fruitless and futile way of the law which couldn't make a flea jump. This is all the more stark when you consider what Deborah shared that the Mosaic tithe actually amounts to over twenty percent of an Israelite's income (John McArthur's observation if I'm not mistaken?).

Again I say, grace--which is supposed to produce everything and more the law could not--actually ends up producing LESS in actual practice. And I blame it on the fact that the church, in general, has distorted and misunderstood Paul's law/grace message, turning it into a message of 'I don't have to worry about a connection between my works and my salvation anymore because salvation is so utterly not dependent on works'.

So your assumption is, with no facts to back it up, is that grace ministries take in less money than those who demand a tithe.

That people who give by grace are cheap tightwads with less love for the Lord, for their church family, for the poor, etc.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So your assumption is, with no facts to back it up, is that grace ministries take in less money than those who demand a tithe.

That people who give by grace are cheap tightwads with less love for the Lord, for their church family, for the poor, etc.

Yes! Why do you think some in the church teach Mosaic tithing, and why believers are so quick to resist it, lol!

I've never been in a Mosaic tithing discussion that was resisted with the argument that grace has led the church to greater and bigger giving so that we don't need the law of the tithe. NEVER. The argument against it is always rationalized as 'just do what the Lord tells you and only do what you feel like doing'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Don't take offense people. I'm literally lol'ing in all of this as I'm writing these things. In these last few years I've become very honest with myself and the doctrines I have held dear. It took pointed questioning and challenging of my dearly held doctrines to make me realize some things were terribly wrong and simply did not add up. My hope is others will take these things to heart, too, and start getting real with themselves and with God, and stop toeing the line on erroneous doctrines in the church today.

 

[Deborah13]

You're missing the argument.

The church says the reason they don't have to tithe is because it's from the law that was added for a season and then removed...and added for natural Jews only (of course, the argument has variations, but that's the basic argument). But this gets exposed as a lacking explanation when you consider that tithing (and circumcision, and Sabbath keeping, and Passover...) were also before the law was added, but they remain because, they say, they were before the law. See? It doesn't add up.

So, the point I've been making here is this reason is terribly flawed and has helped lead to doctrines that actually help people not to be as fruitful in the things of God compared to the old way of the law they are quick to point out is an inferior, ineffective, and even sinful way to serve God.

Prove it from scripture where the tithe was pay of all the increase from before the Law.

Yes! Why do you think some in the church teach Mosaic tithing, and why believers are so quick to resist it, lol! I've never been in a Mosaic tithing discussion that was resisted with the argument that grace has led the church to greater and bigger giving than the law commanded. NEVER.

Maybe you just aren't paying attention. Do some research of some grace ministries that don't teach tithing by the law. Look into James Robinson and the work his ministry does around the world and ALL of it by gift offerings.
Look at Andrew Wommack's ministry and everything they are doing and ALL by offerings.
Neither of them even have a church.
I have heard Joseph Prince tell his church not to tithe unless the Lord puts it on their heart and they are giving for the right reasons.

You seem to think that secular people like Bill Gates and his wife and Warren Buffet among many others can enter into agrees to give 50% of their fortunes away to charities. And that unsaved Jews do the same and they are not under the tithe law now. BUT heaven forbid that people who love the Lord would be lead to give from their hearts what the Holy Spirit has put there and that may amount to way more than a 1/10.
Just how much faith do you have in the power of the Holy Spirit in peoples lives? It sounds like very little.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Prove it from scripture where the tithe was pay of all the increase from before the Law.

Don't spin the argument. The church's argument is that tithing is from the law, and because it is it does not have to be obeyed now (the law having been removed, for all that means to the church). The burden is on those who hold that argument to explain Biblical tithing before the law and why it doesn't contradict their argument that tithing doesn't have to be done because it is from a temporary law that was added, and added for natural Jews only.

Maybe you just aren't paying attention. Do some research of some grace ministries that don't teach tithing by the law. Look into James Robinson and the work his ministry does around the world and ALL of it by gift offerings.
Look at Andrew Wommack's ministry and everything they are doing and ALL by offerings.
Neither of them even have a church.
I have heard Joseph Prince tell his church not to tithe unless the Lord puts it on their heart and they are giving for the right reasons.

May I ask how you assume that all this giving (which I'm very well aware of--my roots are in the charismatic church) amounts to 20 to 30 percent of the combined income of those involved in these churches/ministries? Since you do not know who I am I have no problem telling you that for many years I was part of the generous giviers to J. Robison's ministry. I say that to tell you that I, as one of those you boast about, was a tither, which is actually less than or equal to what the inferior way of the law required. So to say these people did better than the law is simply not true in my case.

Obviously, I do not know the income or the giving of anyone to know how their giving compares to the Mosaic tithe, but I've been showing that the resistance leveled against giving a tenth of one's income is in line with people who are rationalizing their LESS than ten percent giving. As I say, I'm not aware of anyone who argues that grace in the church as a whole has resulted in at least or more than that required by the law.

You seem to think that secular people like Bill Gates and his wife and Warren Buffet among many others can enter into agrees to give 50% of their fortunes away to charities. And that unsaved Jews do the same and they are not under the tithe law now. BUT heaven forbid that people who love the Lord would be lead to give from their hearts what the Holy Spirit has put there and that may amount to way more than a 1/10.

In regard to the church as a whole and in general....you got it sis, lol.

The grace they say is far better than the old way of the law has not produced a church that, as a whole, in general, boasts of that grace moving them to far exceed the begrudging obligation of the law. Instead they use grace to rationalize less than giving as required by the law. This is in line with that 'license' I was talking about--that is, grace being a license to be less than what even the inferior way of the law required. Generally speaking, grace was given for us to be what the law could not make us, not rationalize doing less than what God once required of his people. But as I say, this is the distortion that the church has added to the law/grace message.

Just how much faith do you have in the power of the Holy Spirit in peoples lives? It sounds like very little.

I go by what people say.

In this thread, I think only one person suggested that tithing would reduce their church's income. I'm confident there are isolated cases. I've made it clear I'm speaking in generalities--generalities that represent the majority, not the minority. That's quite apparent by the grossly overwhelming amount of arguments in the vein of 'I don't have to do that--that's the law'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Before you all throw me down a well, I'm not saying that you all now have to start doing what the law commanded and more. I'm saying let's stop misrepresenting grace as the wonderful answer to what the law couldn't do in a person but which actually only has to amount to some of what the law required and when you feel like doing it.

Grace was not given to us to dumb down the requirements of God. It was given to fulfill the requirements of God. The difference between law and grace is that grace gives you the space to grow up into that, and to have your failures covered by forgiveness while you're striving to get there, not stopping along the way in a kind of 'it isn't necessary anymore now that salvation is by grace' kind of attitude.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have a question.

I am wondering what the point in a tithe is or was, and what and where the funds are suppose to go, and what for.

Besides the tithe the Lord commanded that you eat yourself, he said the tithe was to support the priesthood, and others who, because of their circumstances, depended on others for their care and well-being.

“When you have finished paying all the tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan and to the widow, that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied." (Deuteronomy 26:12 NIV)

The point being, God wants us to enjoy and give away that which he has blessed us with. The people of God, who should be keenly aware of the fruitless bondage they themselves were once in, are to see to it that not only do they rejoice in the blessings and increase of God themselves, but give it away to others that they might too.

 

[Deborah13]

I have a question.

I am wondering what the point in a tithe is or was, and what and where the funds are suppose to go, and what for.

The tithe went for many things if you put it into the context of today. Besides what Jethro already mentioned.
Levites were priests but they did many services. They didn't just give God's Word. They were the singers, the musicians, they did the things the elders would do today (praying with and counseling people, etc). They also maintained the temple area. So some were carpenters, masons, and they made the clothing worn by them and the high priest.
They did not inherit any land so they did not own any real estate. So they were given flocks and produce to eat.

So just putting all of that in context to today. Tithes would go to pastors, elders, singers, musicians, etc. Electric, heating/cooling bills, sewer/water, phones, and then all people that are hired to do maintenance on the church building and the grounds.

The Christian church also supports evangelist, missionaries, worldwide humanitarian projects such as one of James Robinson's is digging water wells in Africa so that children aren't drinking the same water livestock walk and do their business in. Children die everyday from parasite infestation because of drinking polluted water.
There will always be places that need Christian support.

 

[Deborah13]

Are you talking about the church bands and those people who stand there in costumes up front singing and clapping there hands?. I thought they would all do it for free out of worship. Most probably do go home after service to there real estate.

I can understand a pastor needs income as they study all week to get the next weeks session organised, and its there fulltime job but i think they also go back to there real estate after service.

Also, i did not think the tithe was given to the gentile. Just as the law of moses was not given to the gentile?.

What I was doing was comparing where the tithe went in the OT compared to if the tithe went to the same thing in the church today.
Actually in big churches there are musicians, etc. that are paid staff.
My husband's first cousin is the director of the music ministry at a large church in CA. It is a paid position.

 

[Obadiah]

Since no one mentions it, I take it no one really considers that the tithe or an offering can be anything other than money. I take it no one believes that someone with little money can substitute something else instead of giving the church money that they need to buy food or pay rent. I take it no one believes that a person who has lost his job or is underemployed can give tithes of offerings of his time, labor, or other things he may be able to offer that would benefit the church as a whole. Even the churches don't believe this. If they did, they would put the same importance on these things as they do on the money people give. For example, when you give money most churches want you to put it in an envelope with your name on it and they keep close records of every dime you give, and can tell you at any given time how much you have given. Of course they only count the money you give directly to them as part of your giving, and ignore anything you might give to any other ministry. But how many churches keep such records and report back to their members on a regular basis of how many hours they spent cutting the grass, painting the buildings, witnessing to people in the community, visiting the sick, or any number of other things I thought God wanted us to do, and to do for Him. I guess none of this is as important as the almighty dollar that we constantly fight over. I mean really, when was the last time you heard anyone fighting over what percentage of our time we should spend witnessing? Obviously money is the only thing that is important to modern Christians, and someone who doesn't have much of it to give is to be shamed for not giving his 10% or 30% or whatever and ignored for his testimony and donation of time, energy, and talents.

 

[Obadiah]

Are you talking about the church bands and those people who stand there in costumes up front singing and clapping there hands?. I thought they would all do it for free out of worship. Or do they need to be payed money to worship God?

Those people you describe have put a lot of time and effort into doing what they do (far more than you see) if they are doing it well. They are not doing it for their own worship of God, they are doing it to facilitate YOUR worship of God. Those people (including your pastor) go home drained and tired after a service and must look to other ways to satisfy their own worship needs because what they do for YOU in your church service is work for them, not worship. I know, because I have a part in that, and I haven't been able to "worship" in the church I work in since the day I started there and haven't had a Sunday off in almost 3 years to be able to worship God myself. I'm too busy concentrating on my job of facilitating that worship for everyone else. It's true that in the OT, the tithe was used to pay these people, just not with money. They were paid with food, shelter, etc.

 

[Deborah13]

Obadiah :amen There are many things people can do and I believe the Lord blesses them just the same.

 

[Obadiah]

Obadiah :amen There are many things people can do and I believe the Lord blesses them just the same.

There are, but how many churches really care about that? I am on paid staff which is rare for what I do, but for every hour I am paid I probably donate 2 hours of time for free, just because that's my service to God and I do what needs to be done to do a good job at it. But almost no one even notices that (if anyone at all has any idea how much I donate), much less acknowledges it or gives me any kind of report of my time spent for free. So it's obvious this isn't nearly as important to them as those who give large amounts of money. This is a problem among many Christians. The most important thing to them is the money (whether grumbling about having to give too much or grumbling about not receiving enough) and everything else is at best a distant second.