Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Chopper
Member
Absolutely right Jason. The Christian community shares the blame.
Deborah13
Member
The Church yells from the highest mountains, same sex marriage is sin, does that change what the world sees and believes? No
And it won't because the world does not recognize the Savior so they can't accept or see what the Church sees and believes.
The answer always comes back to the Great Commission.
Saved people get new hearts and minds.
That is not to take away from the problems of the Church not being the witness it should be, which is also true.
And it won't because the world does not recognize the Savior so they can't accept or see what the Church sees and believes.
The answer always comes back to the Great Commission.
Saved people get new hearts and minds.
That is not to take away from the problems of the Church not being the witness it should be, which is also true.
Obadiah
Member
I think all we can do is live our own lives for God and repent of our sins as best we can (all our sins, not just the favorite of the day), rely on the forgiveness of the Lord for the times we mess up, and try to be that light shining from the top of the hill as an example of Christ to others. I've never believed we can (or should) successfully legislate Christian morality through secular criminal law. That's one of the reasons why most laws such as the ones we used to have against adultery, sodomy, homosexuality, and even alcohol, etc have failed.
I believe we as Christians are to be an example and a witness to the world, but do not believe we are to force the world to live by Christian principles under the force of secular criminal law. Sadly, in areas such as adultery, broken marriages, etc, our example as a whole tends to be no better than the secular world anyway, so how can we expect them to listen to us?
I believe we as Christians are to be an example and a witness to the world, but do not believe we are to force the world to live by Christian principles under the force of secular criminal law. Sadly, in areas such as adultery, broken marriages, etc, our example as a whole tends to be no better than the secular world anyway, so how can we expect them to listen to us?
Jack Hectorman
Member
I believe adultery is a very serious sin and I sympathize with the righteous desire
in the hearts of good Christian folks to want to see adultery stopped. However,
my view is that the American State and the State's police armed with guns are
not the correct institution to stop adultery.
I believe the Christian Church is the correct institution to stop adultery through this process:
First the married couple must experience the "new birth" [Jh. 3:3 being "born again"], second
they must accept the Lord Jesus as their Savior [Jh. 3:16], and third they must allow the Holy
Spirit to produce the fruits of the Holy Spirit in their lives [eg. mentioned in Gal. 5:22-23].
My view is the above process cannot be skipped over on the way to making men and women
into good moral people who do not commit adultery because they love the Lord and have been
taught by the Holy Spirit how to live lives pleasing to the Lord. The American State cannot
teach them these lessons and cannot produce in their hearts a desire to live to please the Lord.
Also, my view is that the American State cannot codify the Christian Moral Code and enforce it
without becoming, for all practical purposes, a police state and applying brutality on a massive
scale to use police force to suppress the street riots and civil disorder that would occur if the
American State started jailing Americans who violated the Christian Moral Code, which would
include a lot more sins than adultery.
The Christian Moral Code, if codified and enforced by the law backed up with police with guns,
would criminalize not only adultery, but also fornication, homo sodomy, hetro sodomy, any kind
of sex before marriage, abortion, taking God's name in vain, cussing, cursing, all divorce except
for reasons of adultery, all divorce and re-marriage except for reasons of adultery, porn viewing.
porn owning, porn making, strip joints, public nudity, nudity in movies, vile filthy language in movies,
nudity in Broadway Plays [not a rare thing], vulgar lyrics in rap music and in all music, unnecessary
violence in movies and in video games, nudity and semi-nudity in video games, and you can add a
lot of Feminists goals to this list of sins. If the American State codified laws against all that up there
[and that's not all of the Christian Moral Code] and actually tried to enforce it, the results would
be catastrophic. Not only would attempting to do that hopelessly clog the courts, but it would create a
level of civil disobedience that would require a police state applying sustained and increasing brutality
to suppress the street protests, and street riots and city-blocks burning, and looting that would occur
if the Christian Moral Code was codified and actually enforced by the courts using police with guns,
which is the only way any secular political State can enforce any moral code.
I'll classify all that up there as my opinion and add this: I have come to believe that the carrying out
of the Lord Christ's Great Commission is God's one and only plan to solve America's problems
and the problems of all other countries as well. I used to believe that the Republican Party could
"fix America" and that if we could just "elect the right kind of politicians" then America could find
solutions to her problems. I no longer hold that belief. I believe the Lord's Great Commission
realized in the hearts of men is the one and only solution. You cannot skip over the Lord Jesus
[or Gal. 5:22-23] on the way to solving America's problems.
One last thought: The very best that the State can do is to cause men to behave based upon FEAR
of the law, and if Fear is their motive on (say) the sin of adultery, then they still desire to commit adultery
in their hearts and would commit adultery if the State was not standing over them with a loaded gun.
Here the State has merely made some "Pharisees" and has established "moral reform" based on FEAR
and not based on a changed nature spoken of by the Lord Jesus in Jh. 3:3 and Jh. 3:16 when He said
that men had to be "born again" and had to accept Him as their Savior [ in order to be, as Paul made it
clear later on, taught the fruits of the Holy Spirit by the Holy Spirit ~~ which fruits will cause a man to
desire to live to please the Lord, and thus not commit adultery, or any of the other sins on that list of
sins up-post.]
America's problems are spiritual problems and there are no political solutions to spiritual problems.
Its impossible to fix spiritual problems with political solutions,we must fix spiritual problems
with spiritual solutions. Secular politicians cannot save America.
♫
/anyway that's just some thoughts I had on the subject ... I realize good and noble men will
disagree with me on this issue
PS
Anticipated Objection:
Also the American State is not a counterpart to Old Testament Israel which was,
there for awhile, at least a functioning theocracy. It is true that America was founded
mostly by Christians and was founded on Christian principles, but America is not a
Christian theocracy and does not have a Commission from God to enforce the
Christian Moral Code [which includes ALL those sins on that list up-post and a
lot more sins also] on its citizens, using the police armed with guns.
♦
in the hearts of good Christian folks to want to see adultery stopped. However,
my view is that the American State and the State's police armed with guns are
not the correct institution to stop adultery.
I believe the Christian Church is the correct institution to stop adultery through this process:
First the married couple must experience the "new birth" [Jh. 3:3 being "born again"], second
they must accept the Lord Jesus as their Savior [Jh. 3:16], and third they must allow the Holy
Spirit to produce the fruits of the Holy Spirit in their lives [eg. mentioned in Gal. 5:22-23].
My view is the above process cannot be skipped over on the way to making men and women
into good moral people who do not commit adultery because they love the Lord and have been
taught by the Holy Spirit how to live lives pleasing to the Lord. The American State cannot
teach them these lessons and cannot produce in their hearts a desire to live to please the Lord.
Also, my view is that the American State cannot codify the Christian Moral Code and enforce it
without becoming, for all practical purposes, a police state and applying brutality on a massive
scale to use police force to suppress the street riots and civil disorder that would occur if the
American State started jailing Americans who violated the Christian Moral Code, which would
include a lot more sins than adultery.
The Christian Moral Code, if codified and enforced by the law backed up with police with guns,
would criminalize not only adultery, but also fornication, homo sodomy, hetro sodomy, any kind
of sex before marriage, abortion, taking God's name in vain, cussing, cursing, all divorce except
for reasons of adultery, all divorce and re-marriage except for reasons of adultery, porn viewing.
porn owning, porn making, strip joints, public nudity, nudity in movies, vile filthy language in movies,
nudity in Broadway Plays [not a rare thing], vulgar lyrics in rap music and in all music, unnecessary
violence in movies and in video games, nudity and semi-nudity in video games, and you can add a
lot of Feminists goals to this list of sins. If the American State codified laws against all that up there
[and that's not all of the Christian Moral Code] and actually tried to enforce it, the results would
be catastrophic. Not only would attempting to do that hopelessly clog the courts, but it would create a
level of civil disobedience that would require a police state applying sustained and increasing brutality
to suppress the street protests, and street riots and city-blocks burning, and looting that would occur
if the Christian Moral Code was codified and actually enforced by the courts using police with guns,
which is the only way any secular political State can enforce any moral code.
I'll classify all that up there as my opinion and add this: I have come to believe that the carrying out
of the Lord Christ's Great Commission is God's one and only plan to solve America's problems
and the problems of all other countries as well. I used to believe that the Republican Party could
"fix America" and that if we could just "elect the right kind of politicians" then America could find
solutions to her problems. I no longer hold that belief. I believe the Lord's Great Commission
realized in the hearts of men is the one and only solution. You cannot skip over the Lord Jesus
[or Gal. 5:22-23] on the way to solving America's problems.
One last thought: The very best that the State can do is to cause men to behave based upon FEAR
of the law, and if Fear is their motive on (say) the sin of adultery, then they still desire to commit adultery
in their hearts and would commit adultery if the State was not standing over them with a loaded gun.
Here the State has merely made some "Pharisees" and has established "moral reform" based on FEAR
and not based on a changed nature spoken of by the Lord Jesus in Jh. 3:3 and Jh. 3:16 when He said
that men had to be "born again" and had to accept Him as their Savior [ in order to be, as Paul made it
clear later on, taught the fruits of the Holy Spirit by the Holy Spirit ~~ which fruits will cause a man to
desire to live to please the Lord, and thus not commit adultery, or any of the other sins on that list of
sins up-post.]
America's problems are spiritual problems and there are no political solutions to spiritual problems.
Its impossible to fix spiritual problems with political solutions,we must fix spiritual problems
with spiritual solutions. Secular politicians cannot save America.
♫
/anyway that's just some thoughts I had on the subject ... I realize good and noble men will
disagree with me on this issue
PS
Anticipated Objection:
Also the American State is not a counterpart to Old Testament Israel which was,
there for awhile, at least a functioning theocracy. It is true that America was founded
mostly by Christians and was founded on Christian principles, but America is not a
Christian theocracy and does not have a Commission from God to enforce the
Christian Moral Code [which includes ALL those sins on that list up-post and a
lot more sins also] on its citizens, using the police armed with guns.
♦
Last edited:
Chopper
Member
Jack, right on!
2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
I believe that a true, Holy Spirit revival that would include every State in our Country, starting in Washington at the White House, that would be our only hope, IMO, for righteousness to enter every life and family. What a wonder it would be to walk down any main street in the USA and see people praying, speaking holy talk, and praising God publicly.
2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
I believe that a true, Holy Spirit revival that would include every State in our Country, starting in Washington at the White House, that would be our only hope, IMO, for righteousness to enter every life and family. What a wonder it would be to walk down any main street in the USA and see people praying, speaking holy talk, and praising God publicly.
Obadiah
Member
Woudn't THAT be something!
Chopper
Member
Oh my friend, I dream of such a great happening, such joy and contentment! Even so Lord give us your revival, please rescue our Nation!
The first line of Christian marriage defense is to teach youngsters relationship skills. Older coupes with healthy established marriages should mentor the youngsters.
Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God. Titus 2:3-5 NIV
Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God. Titus 2:3-5 NIV
Chopper
Member
Jack Hectorman
Member
Amen to all that Chopper.
/Btw, here is a thought I'll share with you:
I have always voted Republican 'cause I'm sure not going to vote for The Donks ..
but sadly the Republican Party has become "Donk Lite" .. lol .. on certain points. Anyway
years ago I used to self-identify politically as a Republican, then I moved up the scale and
I started self-identifying politically as a Conservative Republican, and then later I quit doing that,
and for quite awhile now I self-identify politically as a Christian Conservative because,
as I previously posted, I don't believe any secular political philosophy is the solution
to America spiritual problems.
♫ ♪ ♫ ♪
Good verse you mentioned up there, 2 Ch. 7:14
I appreciate that verse a lot.
Deborah13
Member
First line of defense for a good marriage is putting the Lord at the head.
Second line of defense is a Godly man as head of the household.
Others follow his lead.
Yes, but some youngsters need to be taught how to "manage their families well". Especially new converts who were not raised in a Christian home. Paul would not have needed to tell Timothy to screen for this qualification if everyone Ephesus automatically knew how to do this.
He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 1 Timothy 3:4-5 NIV
th1b.taylor
Member
In one manor that is the crutch that the Lost, inside, the Church lean on and it is not meant to accommodate any sin. The very moment i gave my life, all of it, to God I came under this passage and the surrounding verses... as long as I have repented. When faced with people, presently, involved with this particular sin, this is the verse most commonly used to defend their actions and I, do, believe that God knows our hearts and often, I feel, there is a great need of a repented heart before this applies.
th1b.taylor
Member
All true but at the same time we, the followers, must lead by living the Law of God, as closely as we can manage, before we can affect this world.
As I have studied, since Jan. 1, 1990, I have been, personally, convicted that I, because I am saved, need to take all of the words of Jesus, as well as His actions, as the model I am to seek to live. There is forgiveness for failure but the guidance of the Holy Spirit has taught me that it matters if I try and it matters if I do not. Today, most members of the church do not, even, try. And it sticks in my mind, Matt. 7:21-23, and I never want to hear anything more than "Well done" from my Lord. I pray that is what all of us will hear.
th1b.taylor
Member
But it still in not a thing the Christian plans to do.
It is a very serious sin--my parents were divorced, I know how what kind of affect it has. But I don't think it'd be realistic to make it a criminal offense so far as the law of the land is concerned. The government isn't about mending broken hearts (I wouldn't trust it with that), although it's intended role is to protect it's citizens from immediate harm (murder, rape, etc).