Should all Christians agree?

[Truthfrees]

Here is part of Truthfrees post #8 (with my emphases) He meant us to live by His words - if we did more of that we would be more in agreement and too busy being a doer of God's word to have time to sit around arguing theoretical unprovable theology - when we meet our maker we will probably be ashamed of how much arguing and how little doing we did with God's words - or simply put i think a lot of people will have a bare trophy case because they did nothing reward worthy with God's word"

Too busy being a doer (works) & how little doing we did with God's words (works) & they did nothing reward worthy with God's word (works)

Notice especially the last phrase: i think a lot of people will have a bare trophy case because they did nothing reward worthy with God's word. How is that not salvation by works?

James 1:22-25 says be a doer - that is nt not works
John 14:15 - Jesus says if you love me you will obey me - that is being a doer not works -
1 John 3:21-22 - keeping commands is not works
Romans 5:9 - obeying God is nt - not works

posting part of what i said and then adding your words to my post is not a great way to promote truth and understanding

here is what i said to the op - i was not talking to you

in the upper room they were in one accord of heart as they sought for and waited for God - and the mighty outpouring was world shaking

theology is man's ideas about God's words - never going to be agreement on that - God never meant us to make theology of His words - He meant us to live by His words - if we did more of that we would be more in agreement and too busy being a doer of God's word to have time to sit around arguing theoretical unprovable theology - when we meet our maker we will probably be ashamed of how much arguing and how little doing we did with God's words - or simply put i think a lot of people will have a bare trophy case because they did nothing reward worthy with God's word

 

[WIP]

Romans 7 is a description of the sin nature and how the unsaved struggle with it. Keep reading...

Romans 8:1-4, "Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. " (NASB)

No Christian still has the sin nature. We have been "born again" into a new life.

So are you saying that Paul was not saved?

I differ on my interpretation of Romans 8:1-4. I believe we still have our sin nature but for those who walk in the Spirit are freed from the law and overcome their sin nature, which still exists. If one stops walking in the Spirit, the sin nature or carnal self rears its ugly head again. This is what I see as the conundrum and battle between the carnal and spiritual natures Paul wrote about in chapter 7.

 

[WIP]

You must be referring to the parts of Rom. 7 that were Paul's remembrances of his past, when still walking in the flesh.
My own fleshly minded sin nature was killed when it was crucified with Christ..."with the affections and lusts". (Gal 5:24)
But like 2 Cor 5:17 says,..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
The sin nature was part of that "old".
I have a divine nature now that I am in Christ.

When I read chapter 7 I see Paul using present tense, not past tense, and he ends it with the hope that we have when he wrote, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

 

[jaybo]

So are you saying that Paul was not saved?

I differ on my interpretation of Romans 8:1-4. I believe we still have our sin nature but for those who walk in the Spirit are able to overcome their sin nature, which still exists. If one stops walking in the Spirit, the sin nature or carnal self rears its ugly head again. This is what I see as the conundrum and battle between the carnal and spiritual natures Paul wrote about in chapter 7.

What?? Of course Paul was saved. From his encounter with Christ on the way to Damascus on through the rest of his life he was the prime example of a saved person.

You can't be born again as a new creation in Christ and still have your sin nature. Salvation is given to people so that we are dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Are you saying that Christ's sacrifice was ineffective?

 

[Hopeful]

When I read chapter 7 I see Paul using present tense, not past tense, and he ends it with the hope that we have when he wrote, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

He does mention the past in Rom 7:5..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."
Verses 8-11 all refer to the past.
Verses 14-24 are all in the present-narrative tense, (also known as the present-historical), speaking from a former perspective.
We see that because verses 23 and 24 have answers to what seemed in Rom 7 to be present conundrums.
Verse 23 is answered in Rom 8:2, and verse 24 was already dealt with in Rom 6:6.
In verse 25, Paul makes it clear which road he has chosen, saying "with the mind I myself serve the law of God".
Skin and bones can serve no one.

 

[Northman]

This is one of those topics where it really doesn't matter how any one or group feels or what they think should happen.
1 Corinthians 11:19 lets us know that it's a heavenly decree that we will not be on the same page.

 

[evenifigoalone]

There are a handful of core doctrines that you need to agree on to be Christian. Other than that..... people gonna differ. And it will stay that way until Jesus returns. It's God's job to separate the wheat from the weeds. Not our's.

 

[Hopeful]

This is one of those topics where it really doesn't matter how any one or group feels or what they think should happen.
1 Corinthians 11:19 lets us know that it's a heavenly decree that we will not be on the same page.

1 Cor 11:19..." For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."
"We" are all on the same page.
The "unapproved" are not.

 

[Northman]

1 Cor 11:19..." For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."
"We" are all on the same page.
The "unapproved" are not.

If I was freshly saved at the age of 11 then I would agree with you, but I would be wrong.

 

[Hopeful]

If I was freshly saved at the age of 11 then I would agree with you, but I would be wrong.

I don't know why you would think that.
It is the 1 Cor 11:19 scripture you agree or disagree with.

 

[jaybo]

I don't know why you would think that.
It is the 1 Cor 11:19 scripture you agree or disagree with.

Your link came through oddly. Here it is from the NET 2.1, "For there must in fact be divisions among you, so that those of you who are approved may be evident."

 

[Hopeful]

Your link came through oddly. Here it is from the NET 2.1, "For there must in fact be divisions among you, so that those of you who are approved may be evident."

Sorry for that.
I copy/pasted the chap'-verse numbers from a prior poster instead of from Biblegateway.com.
The gist of the verse though, is that the bad will make the good obvious.
The approved will all be on the same page, in unity.

 

[Northman]

I don't know why you would think that.
It is the 1 Cor 11:19 scripture you agree or disagree with.

There is no option to disagree with scripture. Paul is speaking to believers though, so I wouldn't take liberties with that collective "you" he spoke of.

Think leadership roles.

 

[Hopeful]

There is no option to disagree with scripture. Paul is speaking to believers though, so I wouldn't take liberties with that collective "you" he spoke of.

Think leadership roles.

I don't see why you disagree with Post 28?
Paul was speaking to believers in 1 Cor 11:19, but about those who were not of them...the "disapproved".
1 Cor 11:19..."For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."
The "approved" are in unity, while the heretics are outside the loop.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Should all Christians agree?​

Greetings, 2RM.

Judging by this thread (for one), I'd say it's an impossibility at this particular time in church history, Lol, although ultimately scripture does say it should be the goal that the church to be of one mind doctrinally. But NOT by group think, as you put it. Christians should be thinkers, and not just accept anything they hear unquestioningly. As rough as it is on the forums (and many might not agree with me here), it is still a healthier place spiritually than sitting in a dead church where the preacher does all the teaching and all the thinking, and everyone else sits there like a bunch of brain-dead zombies and never engage their brains on any of it, nor ask questions. The trouble is that the Holy Spirit does not have a tight enough reign on most believers today, so He is not the "Arbitrator" in disputes like scripture says He should be. We don't keep the peace and allow Him to govern our behavior, so we get vehement and rude with each other. We are too much in the flesh, and not enough in the Spirit, so we end up at war with one another over differences, rather than working them out patiently.

13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic... 17 the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. (James 3:13-18)

I had someone write me recently very upset about the way they were treated by various people. After looking at some things, I think the bad treatment may have gone both ways unfortunately. I just think it takes time for spiritual maturity to develop before people get to where they can see the good in others even when they might be 100% vehemently opposed to what they teach.

Case in point: I have a Jehovahs Witness friend at another forum. Am I in agreement with her doctrinally? I think she's one of the worst heretics on the forums, LoL. But in spite of us arguing like cats and dogs, there's this friendship there, and I think it's because we are both mature spiritually. I compliment her on the things I do admire about her, and it makes things a little more palatable I suppose when I tell her she's off her rocker doctrinally. Maybe the biggest disappointment is getting attacked and insulted by believers who SHOULD be to that level of maturity but aren't yet. That can be tough. But there are mature believers out there.

 

[Northman]

I don't see why you disagree with Post 28?
Paul was speaking to believers in 1 Cor 11:19, but about those who were not of them...the "disapproved".
1 Cor 11:19..."For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."
The "approved" are in unity, while the heretics are outside the loop.

If I seem to be in disagreement, It's because I don't consider all those "heretics" to be actual heretics but rather a vast swath of them are just immature believers opening their mouths on issues they don't fully understand yet. They are still saved, just may have learned something wrong or come to a weird conclusion. If they choose to plant their feet in the ground and stand on some actual heresy, then they are no longer the collective "you" and instead are in the category of false teacher.

In modern terms, I just see it as you are in a community and there is an army of misinformation out there. The misinformation gets talked about and the ones with wisdom are seen and recognized(spiritual leaders). The people carrying the heresy shrug it off when they learn properly, but are also recognized(non-spiritual leaders). To me, this is the passage in practice.

 

[Hopeful]

If I seem to be in disagreement, It's because I don't consider all those "heretics" to be actual heretics but rather a vast swath of them are just immature believers opening their mouths on issues they don't fully understand yet. They are still saved, just may have learned something wrong or come to a weird conclusion. If they choose to plant their feet in the ground and stand on some actual heresy, then they are no longer the collective "you" and instead are in the category of false teacher.

Isn't "heretic-believer" an oxy-moron?
How are real believers identified?
By their adherence to the word of God.
We can tell the false believers by the same criterion.

In modern terms, I just see it as you are in a community and there is an army of misinformation out there. The misinformation gets talked about and the ones with wisdom are seen and recognized(spiritual leaders). The people carrying the heresy shrug it off when they learn properly, but are also recognized(non-spiritual leaders). To me, this is the passage in practice.

The members of the community of God have all they need to identify false ideology, and they who bring it.
Bringers of heresy are spiritual leaders indeed.
But the spirit they work for is not of God.

As to the OP, heretics are not in agreement with God's people.

 

[Northman]

Isn't "heretic-believer" an oxy-moron?
How are real believers identified?
By their adherence to the word of God.
We can tell the false believers by the same criterion.

The members of the community of God have all they need to identify false ideology, and they who bring it.
Bringers of heresy are spiritual leaders indeed.
But the spirit they work for is not of God.

As to the OP, heretics are not in agreement with God's people.

Heresies floating around doesn't mean anyone in the "you" camp had to start them. I think that might be the part you are stuck on. Always gonna be rumors and things to talk about. This passage is about public iron on iron to see who's words get more respect.

Being wrong for a while is something every believer is guilty of. It doesn't make someone a false believer. Why even bring that up? If you want to talk about false teachers and whatnot that's cool but the original idea, as in response to the OP, was just that this verse shows that crappy ideas are going to be floating around and there is no getting away from it. We know, or should know, that when an apostle makes a decree from the Holy Spirit like that, then it doesn't matter what anyone wants, it will be made to happen if need be just so God will never be wrong.

 

[Hopeful]

Heresies floating around doesn't mean anyone in the "you" camp had to start them. I think that might be the part you are stuck on. Always gonna be rumors and things to talk about. This passage is about public iron on iron to see who's words get more respect.

The perpetrators of heresies are in the "unapproved" camp.
They are not of us. (1 John 2:19)

Being wrong for a while is something every believer is guilty of. It doesn't make someone a false believer. Why even bring that up?

It does if they cling to it after having been shown the truth of the matter.

If you want to talk about false teachers and whatnot that's cool but the original idea, as in response to the OP, was just that this verse shows that crappy ideas are going to be floating around and there is no getting away from it. We know, or should know, that when an apostle makes a decree from the Holy Spirit like that, then it doesn't matter what anyone wants, it will be made to happen if need be just so God will never be wrong.

We can "get away from it" with unity amongst the faithful.
Hence my answer to the OP...We should be in agreement on church matters.
If we aren't, all kinds of darkness will descend on the body of believers.

 

[Consecrated Life]

There are arguments for and against.

If you think we should, what is the defense from 'group think', where everyone agrees, but no one is right and everyone is wrong because none have noticed the common error. The mistake everyone is making and therefore no one realises?

If you think we shouldn't what, precisely, holds Christendom together?

Personally, I think total agreement is a vain quest, not least because because we are all at different levels and stages along our various journeys in our imitation of Christ and our approaching of God.

But, more importantly, what do you think?

Best wishes to you all, 2ndRateMind

How would you even know who is a " Christian " let alone determining if you should be in agreement .
Agree with Jesus , and let the rest take care of itself .