Should all Christians agree?

[christian1724]

For any God given Truth, there are those who have grasped it and there are those who have not yet grasped it.

Our commonality is that we seek the Truth through Faith on His Word as we are able to understand it. Upon acquiring it we share it with others who wish to find it.

 

[Northman]

The perpetrators of heresies are in the "unapproved" camp.
They are not of us. (1 John 2:19)

This is an incorrect blanket association. You won't get me to a point where I accept your premise so that the rest gets to be true as well.

It does if they cling to it after having been shown the truth of the matter.

This was never in dispute. Again, not sure why you are bringing this line of condemnation into it. But in a nutshell, this is why your general association is not correct, because even though the unlearned propagate heresy after heresy, they are still "us". They learn and move on correctly.

Hence my answer to the OP...We should be in agreement on church matters.
If we aren't, all kinds of darkness will descend on the body of believers.

Hence my reason for posing the verse, to show that the text says that we will NOT all be in agreement. Desire to not be in darkness isn't a good enough reason to void the Word.

I think you are speaking way too lofty with a bit of obfuscation, that at this point I can't see as anything but being done on purpose.

 

[Hopeful]

This is an incorrect blanket association. You won't get me to a point where I accept your premise so that the rest gets to be true as well.

Your implication then is that those with the Spirit of God present heresies.
I can't agree with that.

This was never in dispute. Again, not sure why you are bringing this line of condemnation into it. But in a nutshell, this is why your general association is not correct, because even though the unlearned propagate heresy after heresy, they are still "us". They learn and move on correctly.

If they are "us", they won't be considered as "of us" in 1 John 2:19..."They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."
Those of "us" would have continued with us, and without heresy.

Hence my reason for posing the verse, to show that the text says that we will NOT all be in agreement. Desire to not be in darkness isn't a good enough reason to void the Word.

Your "we" includes those who walk in darkness.
Those in darkness cannot say they have fellowship with God, (1 John 1:6)...so can't be "of us".

I think you are speaking way too lofty with a bit of obfuscation, that at this point I can't see as anything but being done on purpose.

Are sinners "of Christ"?

 

[Northman]

Your implication then is that those with the Spirit of God present heresies.
I can't agree with that.

You don't have to agree, and I have no intention or desire in trying to make you. I have heard younger Christians say some crazy things even to the point of Jesus not existing til He was born on earth. Total heresy. You can accuse these types of not being believers if you want, but I won't be jumping on that bandwagon.

 

[Hidden In Him]

This passage is about public iron on iron to see who's words get more respect.

Being wrong for a while is something every believer is guilty of. It doesn't make someone a false believer.

This is the way I have always read the passage as well. The word "heresies" is usually translated "sects" or "factions" here, and the force of the indicative mood δεῖ γὰρ καὶ αἱρέσεις ἐν ὑμῖν εἶναι ("for there must exist factions" or "there have to be factions") is a strange statement to make if this in reference to genuine heretics of necessity needing to always be present within congregations. It's like, what if a congregation doesn't have any heretics. Are they supposed to go out and find some because you always need to at least have a few hanging around?

The natural reading is that when doctrinal divisions are created in a congregation of genuine believers, factions will of necessity form, because similar to when someone is in sin and one goes to him in private, then with another couple of believers, and then eventually with the whole church, so too will the majority of the church rally around the one/ ones speaking the truth. It is similar to how forums sometimes run. You see factions over various debates being formed all the time, even though everyone involved is a genuine believer; they just happen to disagree is all. The leadership, if it is solid, will tend to side with the truth, leading to one faction's view being approved at a site and another being rejected. That doesn't mean the correct side is always approved - sometimes the leadership makes the wrong choice - and this is why Christian organizations of all kinds are only as good as their leadership.

 

[Hopeful]

You don't have to agree, and I have no intention or desire in trying to make you. I have heard younger Christians say some crazy things even to the point of Jesus not existing til He was born on earth. Total heresy. You can accuse these types of not being believers if you want, but I won't be jumping on that bandwagon.

Thanks be to God for blessing us, and every new believer, with pastors and teachers.
Nearly every new believer came to Christ with preconceived baggage that needs to be "unpacked".
If folks cling to the old things, their "belief" is certainly in question.
I realized I was a new creature when I threw my rosaries and statues into the garbage dumpster.
I "threw away" a lot more than that.

 

[Adoration]

This is a very interesting thread... the topic of agreement within the body.
When I first joined a forum in the spring of 2020... I did so with the intention of finding fellowship and some sort of unity.
16 months later... I am quite convinced that strife is what can be expected within Christianity.
This is not a complaint... simply an observation.
I personally believe that Christianity has been mixed with politics... and that has made for a very toxic combination.
I understand that my view is not a popular one... but it is none the less what I have seen and experienced during my time in the forums.
Something changed with the 2016 election... and it simply carried on with covid. Now... not only do we have division due to doctrinal teachings... but also political and medical issues. WAY too much stuff is getting crammed into Christianity... and it has absolutely strangled JESUS out.

We are called to give thanks in all things.. .in all situations... we are to count it all joy.
From what I have seen these last two years.... I have to say... I am deeply disturbed... and to be honest... I am not able to often recognize the Christian from the non-Christian.

 

[Hopeful]

This is a very interesting thread... the topic of agreement within the body.
When I first joined a forum in the spring of 2020... I did so with the intention of finding fellowship and some sort of unity.
16 months later... I am quite convinced that strife is what can be expected within Christianity.
This is not a complaint... simply an observation.
I personally believe that Christianity has been mixed with politics... and that has made for a very toxic combination.
I understand that my view is not a popular one... but it is none the less what I have seen and experienced during my time in the forums.
Something changed with the 2016 election... and it simply carried on with covid. Now... not only do we have division due to doctrinal teachings... but also political and medical issues. WAY too much stuff is getting crammed into Christianity... and it has absolutely strangled JESUS out.

We are called to give thanks in all things.. .in all situations... we are to count it all joy.
From what I have seen these last two years.... I have to say... I am deeply disturbed... and to be honest... I am not able to often recognize the Christian from the non-Christian.

As you find it at troubling that you can't tell men of God from men of the world, what do you use as your "ruler"?
By what, do you judge the caliber of men?

 

[Adoration]

As you find it at troubling that you can't tell men of God from men of the world, what do you use as your "ruler"?
By what, do you judge the caliber of men?

Humility... compassion... tenderness... are basically my starting points for deciding if I am going to be able to trust a fellow-believer. I do not expect anything nor do I look to the non-believer... but I also have not found many Christians that I would choose to believe and/or listen to.

 

[Hopeful]

Humility... compassion... tenderness... are basically my starting points for deciding if I am going to be able to trust a fellow-believer. I do not expect anything nor do I look to the non-believer... but I also have not found many Christians that I would choose to believe and/or listen to.

Jesus did say few would be saved, and that is surely evidenced by the lack of trustworthy people on earth.
Beware though, as only humility towards God is worth anything.

 

[dafydd]

There are arguments for and against.

If you think we should, what is the defense from 'group think', where everyone agrees, but no one is right and everyone is wrong because none have noticed the common error. The mistake everyone is making and therefore no one realises?

If you think we shouldn't what, precisely, holds Christendom together?

Personally, I think total agreement is a vain quest, not least because because we are all at different levels and stages along our various journeys in our imitation of Christ and our approaching of God.

But, more importantly, what do you think?

Best wishes to you all, 2ndRateMind

Truth is a multi-faceted diamond and different people will emphasize a different facet. Also, in this life we all see "through a glass darkly" and so nobody has a clear perception of Truth.
But, having said this, where a group of Christians come together for the purpose of reaching a conclusion about something, we must remember that each member of that meeting has the same Spirit (of Christ) and that Christ is not divided. Therefore, if all the members of a group surrender to Christ's Spirit within them, they will all be drawn to the same conclusion. That is how Quakers hold their business meetings. Voting does not occur, because voting implies a diversity of separate egos each having a different opinion, whereas Christians (if truly surrendered to Christ) are ruled by a single Person and a meeting of Christians should express the will of that Person, not the individual wills of a majority of people who may or may not be in harmony with the will of God.

 

[2ndRateMind]

How would you even know who is a " Christian " let alone determining if you should be in agreement .
Agree with Jesus , and let the rest take care of itself .

Problem is. you have your interpretation of the gospels, and I have mine, and pretty much everyone has theirs. How are we to judge between them, and decide which is correct?

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Hopeful]

Problem is. you have your interpretation of the gospels, and I have mine, and pretty much everyone has theirs. How are we to judge between them, and decide which is correct?

Best wishes, 2RM.

I feel that everyone's interpretation of the "gospel" is the same...Jesus died for our sins.
It is the doctrines that come after "step one" that seem to be debated.
The ones that are correct are those that don't accommodate sin.

 

[2ndRateMind]

I feel that everyone's interpretation of the "gospel" is the same...Jesus died for our sins.

So, then what makes a sin a sin? What is the difference, in other words, between a vice and a virtue?

Best wishes, 2RM

 

[Hopeful]

So, then what makes a sin a sin? What is the difference, in other words, between a vice and a virtue?

Best wishes, 2RM

A sin is anything counter to love.

 

[2ndRateMind]

A sin is anything counter to love.

That's a good rule of thumb. So Jesus died because we do not love to the extent He did?

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Hopeful]

That's a good rule of thumb. So Jesus died because we do not love to the extent He did?

Yes.
Thanks be to God we CAN love as He does, now that we can be reborn of His Father's seed.